Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-18-2020, 09:36 AM   #1
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,192
United_States
Offline
Athletics in aikido

Since we are all in isolation...

I tried to start this thread yesterday, but couldn't get my thoughts together enough...

One of the things I have noticed about aikido is that many of the movements stray from common athletic movements. I understand that some of the movements are dictated by kata, but I am not sure that is the entirety of the reason and I am curious about what other people think. Bonus question - how does this stray affect the positive effects of training for health?

To create some ground rules... I consider the "athletic position" as the generally held status quo for an athletic posture. We see some variety of this position in most sports and many martial arts. So, I am comparing our posture and movements against the athletic position. I do not expect aikido to be a "all-in-one" solution for body health, but if one of our tenants of aikido is to promote aikido for health, then we should be able to show that in comparison to other activities.

Its only fair that I go first...
I don't like the lack of athleticism in aikido; and, I believe there is a lack of athleticism in aikido. It's always been a problem for me, but I have been fortunate to be around people who shared that perspective. And, I don't mean running around like fools on the mat; I mean the ability to make power and use your body in action. I came to aikido from a sports background and it still makes me cringe to hear an instructor correct a student to stand with a straight back. After being exposed to other arts and and art-related health activities (like yoga), I came to realize that many other arts have an athletic component that I don't see in aikido. Related is the lack of athleticism in our movements - we've all seen/been the heaving nage in the middle of an intense randori because we don't know how to breath. And while I can still hear the side comment, "you do your best randori when you are exhausted," I have never heard a side comment like, "you do your best tennis when you are tired," or "defensive backs are at their best when they are tired." In a similar vein, I think many of our movements focus on using the least amount of energy, rather than the most efficient use of energy. Since athleticism is about making and using power in your body, I don't think there is enough emphasis on it in our training. I am not saying that we all need to add 60 minutes of pushups into class, but I do think we have prejudice against using power in our training that has influenced our curriculum to the point where athleticism is not present in much of our movement. I want to open the spectre of implication that maybe some of our kata and movements have been... modified, and, not for the best from the perspective of athleticism.

For my bonus question... I think activities like aiki training have done wonders to show me just how much you can change your body by slow posture training. Yoga training, too. I am getting too old for the crash and bang aikido of my early days and I want to have all of my knees, shoulders, and back when I am 65. But what do I see in aikido? Lots of broken people who can't sit in seiza or lift a sword, or take a fall. I love aikido; I will love more being able to pick up my grandchildren because I have two working shoulders. I want to see my aikido fall closer to the athleticism I see in aiki training or yoga.

This is what happens when you are trapped in a house with 100 martial arts books and nothing to do for 3 weeks... Also, because 10 years ago I routinely made fun of yoga people, I am sure you can dig up a post that would make me eat crow. Sigh.

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2020, 06:32 PM   #2
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,272
Japan
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

Yes. I entirely agree.

When I started aikido in the late 60s, I was an undergraduate student at a UK university set in a country park. I lived on the campus and so took up the habit of cross-country running, along with my aikido. I mapped out a proper marathon course, which involved a variety of gradients and used a breathing method that I thought would complement the aikido I was practicing: intake and expulsion of breath every four running paces, regardless of the gradient. The advantages of this method are obvious to me, and it also helped that my fellow aikido were healthy and strong undergraduate students. I was also fortunate in having K Chiba as a teacher and my training method fitted his aikido exactly.

After graduation, my next universities did not have a country campus and running round Cambridge Mass., and later, the centre of London, gave me nothing like the same experience as running in Stanmer Park. I also suffered two injuries in the US and I want to stress the importance of this and the effect it had on my aikido. The New England Aikikai in Central Square was not particularly large, but M Kanai in his prime was a magnet and there was no real policy of how to handle large numbers of people doing nage-waza at the same time. So, there were the inevitable collisions, which could have been avoided. Inevitably, also, many people had knee problems, caused by being in the wrong place in the wrong time, because they did not allow an uke to exhibit one aspect of aikido individuality by flying across the mat, regardless of any human obstacles: these 'obstacles' had the responsibility of getting out of the way.

So I agree on the importance of athleticism, but would also tress the importance of good manners on the mat. As a bonus, I am lucky to have been taught by M Saito himself and have a makiwara in my front garden. Actually, I have two: one set in a block of concrete and the other set in wood, and moveable. This provides the foundation of a whole variety of training involving weapons, strikes, correct posture and hip movements,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 04-18-2020 at 06:34 PM.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020, 09:03 AM   #3
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,192
United_States
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

I think there are always safety concerns. The mat in DC had a giant pole in the middle of it. My dojo in Nashville was hardwood for a while (and we still took ukemi). I can still feel myself shaking my head when [Saotome] sensei would have us pull out bokken on a seminar mat that did not support the number of people on the mat. Imagine if our dojos were ever inspected for safety...

But to add to your comments about running... the [lack of] proper breathing instruction is one of the frustrations I can elaborate on. As I eluded in my earlier post, I don't think I was ever taught a proper athletic breathing technique by an aikido instructor. To be fair, I also never got specific instruction from my judo experiences, either. It took several years of training in aikido during which I was exposed to "meditation" breathing in aikido. It did not prepare me for breathing during activity, and in most cases was never explained beyond a breath-holding exercise. After struggling with "aikido" breathing when I played judo and rolled, I finally just reverted back to reverse breathing (the instruction I received playing sports). I have since gotten some additional help understanding my breathing, but I still have conversations all the time with individuals who promote tying breathing to movement, and using breath-holding tricks while in movement.

Was this the fault of my instructors? Maybe. It is probable that they were simply repeating something from another source. What's frustrating most is that the basics that I now use where taught to me at very earlier stages in my athletic endeavors. This is just one example of an instructional comparison that was a loongg way up the mountain, if we are using the whole "we are all heading up the same mountain" thing.

**Imagine this said in the most sarcastic manner ever**
If breathing is important to aikido (and it should be), why isn't it on the 6th kyu test?
Because all the old timers want to laugh at shodan candidates who don't know how to breath in randori. In judo, there was an easy way to fix it, 4 or 5 3-minutes rounds of randori every class.
**End sarcasm**

Another example is our hanmi. I have modified the original hanmi I learned to be more similar to the athletic position. No straight back leg, a much more shallow stance, and a slightly rounded back and arched spine. It gives me greater stability, much more freedom of movement, and much greater ability to generate vertical power. It actually resembles my power position from when I would perform power cleans in strength training. I completely blame aikido for this one. I had to go outside aikido to learn aiki=power and power=whole body vertical power. From there, it was a simple matter to recreate old body postures from athletics. The whole muscle thing is another conversation not for this thread, but my suspicion is that in an effort not to define aiki, there becomes no way in which you can advocate for (or against) how to make aiki. So you can take a simple instruction that we all learned in any sport (push against the ground with your legs), and we turn it into "20 year technique". Ironically, what do you see in many older aikido people... shorter stances with less straight lines.

I know that there are tons of different aikido out there and I am not even arguing that we don't get where we need to go. My baseball coach never told me to relax. My football coach never implied tackling someone would feel like I wasn't doing anything at all. And, my golf coach told me to always push into the ground as I swing through the ball.

Last edited by jonreading : 04-20-2020 at 09:06 AM.

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2020, 06:30 AM   #4
Craig Moore
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 9
Australia
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

I have an absolute pet hate of the idea that training to the point of exhaustion allows one to finally let go of their strength and start to find efficient body use. It's amazing how the body can hold onto that strength through the physical stress and it gets worse with the loss of coordination and control that accompanies exhaustion. I also had the unpleasant experience of finding out I had a slow relaxation of blood vessels back to normal size when I first started Aikido at 16. Was fine pushing myself under the instruction that it would make me let go, but shortly after we stopped cold my blood pressure fell though the floor, I collapsed and spent half a minute unconscious. As I got a few years older a bit more bulk sorted out that problem, but no one was watching out for anything like that happening including my instructor or myself.

Collision injuries can be nasty. I've been to seminars where there hasn't been care by the participants and witnessed some real close calls. I'm thankful to train at a dojo where Sensei is always safety conscious, especially for on mat collision awareness.

Last edited by Craig Moore : 04-24-2020 at 06:32 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2020, 09:47 AM   #5
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,192
United_States
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

Quote:
Craig Moore wrote: View Post
I have an absolute pet hate of the idea that training to the point of exhaustion allows one to finally let go of their strength and start to find efficient body use. It's amazing how the body can hold onto that strength through the physical stress and it gets worse with the loss of coordination and control that accompanies exhaustion. I also had the unpleasant experience of finding out I had a slow relaxation of blood vessels back to normal size when I first started Aikido at 16. Was fine pushing myself under the instruction that it would make me let go, but shortly after we stopped cold my blood pressure fell though the floor, I collapsed and spent half a minute unconscious. As I got a few years older a bit more bulk sorted out that problem, but no one was watching out for anything like that happening including my instructor or myself.

Collision injuries can be nasty. I've been to seminars where there hasn't been care by the participants and witnessed some real close calls. I'm thankful to train at a dojo where Sensei is always safety conscious, especially for on mat collision awareness.
Well, I raise the issue of randori because I think we have all had or seen that experience, so it's a commonality which we can discuss. Its an issue for me because it defies every major athletic endeavor we understand, specifically the idea fatigue improves athletic performance. Sometimes we can chalk up physical outliers to kata or a limit to the training system. I find it pretty hard to defend this example, though. The closest answer that I would accept is the the idea that under extreme duress, the body will respond by making whole body power and shutting down the body systems not essential to that endeavor (thus training whole body movement). But I would argue there are safer and more efficient ways to train whole body movement.

Throwing someone into a pool is one way of teaching a person to swim...

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2020, 11:51 PM   #6
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,272
Japan
Offline
Smile Re: Athletics in aikido

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Well, I raise the issue of randori because I think we have all had or seen that experience, so it's a commonality which we can discuss. Its an issue for me because it defies every major athletic endeavor we understand, specifically the idea fatigue improves athletic performance. Sometimes we can chalk up physical outliers to kata or a limit to the training system. I find it pretty hard to defend this example, though. The closest answer that I would accept is the the idea that under extreme duress, the body will respond by making whole body power and shutting down the body systems not essential to that endeavor (thus training whole body movement). But I would argue there are safer and more efficient ways to train whole body movement.

Throwing someone into a pool is one way of teaching a person to swim...
...or allowing them to drown

When I took my shodan test in London, I had to do randori against four. The examiner was Yoshimitsu Yamada and the first part consisted of yonin doori, with (1) two-handed grabs against the right and left hand and also (2) ryo-kata doori grabs from front and back. You can divide this up into two-handed attacks and build up to it, but Yamada did not do this. He was visiting and was asked to do the grading test. So he did not know what was expected. I still do this in my own classes and call it Yamada, or Yamaguchi, shukudai (shukudai = work that always needs doing), after s senior 3rd dan student, who hates doing it, but does it rather well. Her two teenage kids also train and can also do it. When you have four ukes coming at you, with no indication of how they will attack (very important), you do not really have time to worry about how tired you are, or wonder whether you are breathing correctly. You also need to use the mat space correctly and not just wait for your attackers to 'get' you.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2020, 07:58 AM   #7
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,192
United_States
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

For the sake of my sanity and the thread, I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to the techniques we practice as having a training purpose. Randori allows us to practice some important aspects of training that we don't get in our regular kata training. I am questioning the methodology by which we "teach" randori.

As a continuation of this observation, physical endurance is a critical component of most sports. We run until we get tired. Then we run some more. Then we learn how to move our feet in the proper direction to improve our leg strength and speed. Then we run some. I haven't even mentioned a sport and it doesn't matter because all sports require strong running skills. But, the amount of time I spent running in any of the sports I played was always consistent with it being the most important activity I could do. I might hit in the cages for 20 minutes, but I would run for 45. I might spend 30 minutes at the range, but I spent 60 minutes carrying my bag running stairs. Usually, sports training methodology matches the goals of the coach directing the training.

Randori is one of the exercises we do that is closer to physical exercise than a lot of our kata, so it's a good conversation piece. IF randori is about not caring whether you are tired or not, then our physical fitness should have been trained long in advance of testing whether or not we get tired (and as a continuation of that training). But, I think the evidence is in how we train. I don't think most of us train in such a manner that our physical fitness is demonstrated in randori.

Here is the usual randori timeline:
Sankyu - "Sensei, what's randori?"
Nikyu - "So, zombies chase you and you run away from them until sensei says, 'stop'?"
Ikkyu - "Wait, this is on my test?"
**Seminar**
**Seminar**
**Seminar**
Shodan Test - "Take a breath, we'll continue when you are ready." "Hai, sensei."
Shodan - "Shoot, I need to do this again on my nidan test? Well, I will just bring a bunch of friends to my test and it will be easier..."

Everything can't be the most important. I am critical of things because we have a published doctrine of importance that we test against. Nowhere on any teaching criteria I have ever seen of aikido prioritizes cardiovascular endurance. Yet one thing that always comes up about randori... endurance on the mat. Now, some groups are more fit than others, and I know there are exceptions. I specifically am critical of testing a student for a trait that aikido has otherwise never prioritized in any formal manner.

"Okay, now for the BBQ portion of your nidan test.""Umm. Sensei... what are you talking about?""Guest instructor is from Texas and prioritizes a sloppy red sauce BBQ over smoked meat. Outside is a grill and 20lbs of meat. You have 60 minutes to cook." "But Sensei, we never did this is class." "Well, I am trying to impress our visiting guest, so we will indulge him in this request."

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2020, 05:41 PM   #8
Craig Moore
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 9
Australia
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

The only people I've seen that are good at endurance in randori are those that do some faster paced ukemi practice as an extension after class is finished. In some schools that is a formalised culture where students line up to be thrown by the sensei or a senior until they are 'tired'. In others it's an informal culture where the more fit and enthusiastic students stay fit and enthusiastic by throwing each other for a while after class. When that's done every week it's great at building stamina. It needs to be tailored and inclusive of individual abilities, as not everyone already has a base fitness and not everyone is interested in their Aikido becoming a fitness class. But I totally agree our training needs to line up with our testing, and randori is a great but not the only example of that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2020, 06:46 AM   #9
gnlj
Dojo: Clifton-Hill
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14
Australia
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

Hi from Melbourne. Jon - it has been a very long time since we trained together in Atlanta! I hope you and your family are doing well. Likewise, Peter it has been many decades since we met at a BAF course.
I thought this discussion was very interesting. My questions are for Jon really. I know you are training with some other people who have been very clear that there is an aiki-body which is different from other sorts of movement. How does that fit in with your athletics? Do they relate at all?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 04:29 PM   #10
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,192
United_States
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

Hey Guy! OMG, it has been forever!

Yes, aiki body is a specific movement methodology. In my opinion, the training style we use for our IP work is probably more similar to my sports training than my aikido training. Our body work is very goal-oriented with milestone metrics and a pretty defined range of success. I think that is one of the reasons why my brain adopted the training so quickly.

The muscle movement is different, of course. But there are discussions all the time about whether elite athletics are mimicking IP movements. Inasmuch as most athletes train for body power, I think IP training and athletic training have more in common with the goal of producing [whole] body power than aikido and IP do. In my sports, I was told how to make power because our movements have to make power in sports whether I am swinging a golf club, throwing a pitch, or tackling a running back. We don't talk about making power in aikido because power is a dirty word in aikido; it also happens that many [most] people who practice aikido don't know how to make power when they move, so it's convenient that it is not discussed. I give credit to sports programs for their research and training to make powerful athletes, even if they are choosing a different movement methodology.

As for our body work... Again, I feel more powerful in our training positions than I ever felt in my aikido. But, aikido does not focus on training elements that cultivate power, so I wasn't surprised by that observation once we got to that point in our training. Probably the biggest change in the dojo was our health. Less injury, better flexibility, more energy.

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2020, 06:49 PM   #11
gnlj
Dojo: Clifton-Hill
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14
Australia
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

Hi Jon,
It has been a long time! Nearly 20 years!
I think it is great you are doing IP work and I am interested in your feedback. Much of the early discussion on here was pretty tedious with "we do that", "no you don't" repeat ad nauseam. However, some of the discussion did go into modern athletics and that was sometimes also dismissed. I suppose I felt that when you see what modern athletes can do in various sports and how advanced modern training methods are, I was surprised that there isn't some overlap. I suppose there is a tendency to emphasise the mystical eastern methods. Having said that it is important to remember that however much I love tennis, even when I was younger I was never going to ever be as good as Rodger Federer will be when he is a pensioner!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 10:19 AM   #12
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,192
United_States
Offline
Re: Athletics in aikido

Quote:
Guy N. L. Jameson wrote: View Post
Hi Jon,
It has been a long time! Nearly 20 years!
I think it is great you are doing IP work and I am interested in your feedback. Much of the early discussion on here was pretty tedious with "we do that", "no you don't" repeat ad nauseam. However, some of the discussion did go into modern athletics and that was sometimes also dismissed. I suppose I felt that when you see what modern athletes can do in various sports and how advanced modern training methods are, I was surprised that there isn't some overlap. I suppose there is a tendency to emphasise the mystical eastern methods. Having said that it is important to remember that however much I love tennis, even when I was younger I was never going to ever be as good as Rodger Federer will be when he is a pensioner!
Don't use numbers, Guy. Don't use numbers...

The IP world is very frustrating, on Aikiweb and other sites. For someone seriously looking into IP training, it's hard to find a good source with good details. A lot of good IP people have left Aikiweb for the reasons you describe, and that's a loss for the community.

The athletics thread is a musing on contrasting training methodologies because [I think] our aikido training system has made some [wrong] turns. We are several generations into those instructional decisions, so we can evaluate effectiveness and compare the outcomes against other methodologies. Aikido has the burden of carrying cultural, philosophical, and esoteric aspects within its physical training. Modern athletics doesn't have those burdens... Dunking a basketball is not a 20-year technique.

In my opinion, the single biggest problem with aikido is its success (or lackthereof). We can't play with sister martial artists anymore. There was a time when judo people trained aikido to get better at judo; now, aikido people have difficulty working with sister arts. We used to have weapons; now, aikikai has retired weapons, mostly because it's difficult to work with weapons arts. We used to promote aikido for health; now, has have an older generation of leaders who are broken from their "healthy" aikido training of the 60's, 70's and 80's. There are always exceptions, of course.

Part of the "we do that," "you don't do that," argumentation is that we have gotten to a point where aikido struggles to demonstrate its success in a marketplace of ideas. You can put hands on someone and instantly know whether they have juice. We have all the experience of touching someone and knowing instantly, "you can't do X." IP training is a playground where you can leave your belt behind and workout on a unified goal of making your body work better. This is a scary thought for our emperors who may not have clothes.

For me, athletics is about making the body stronger, its a training tool to improve performance. This is a unique goal and it acts as a general governor for tangent behaviors. For example, in order to get stronger, I need to improve my diet so I eat better. I need to be active so I burn enough calories to keep extra fat off my body. I need to learn new activities to rotate my routine, so I have to become knowledgeable about what I am doing. The tangental aspects unify around a central goal and that goal provides guidance. I think there are personal innovators in aikido who have been able to make heathy dojo communities around centralized goals, but that is a local (personal) experience.

Back to my randori example... If we are looking for endurance in a randori test at shodan level, then the test requirements for shodan, ikkyu, nikkyu, and sankyo should reflect cardiovascular endurance components. They do not, which is why I do not believe endurance is a core component of randori.

What is our unifying goal in aikido? I think no two people would have the same answer. It used to be aiki. Now, you can't even get anyone to define aiki. Its pretty hard to craft a training system around... what?

We can't all have individual goals, but training in a nebulous centralized system. That is a very inefficient teaching methodology that produces the very nebulous and unremarkable skillsets we struggle to hone for 20 years to finally have a decent armbar technique. I think we can learn a lesson from athletics to identify a goal, train to that goal, and evaluate the success to which we met that goal.

I think a tough question that we have to address is... Do we want to have a plan? Honestly, I think many of us are hobbyists - we want to train in a format free of criticism and expectation. We just wanna show up, do something we already know for a little while, talk to our friends, and go home. How many times do you see the same person at a seminar year after year who trains exactly the way he has always trained, regardless of what the instructor is teaching?

Athletics is a way to force change. That why we hire personal trainers... to make us change (even when we don't want to). For my experience in IP, the training forces your body to change. In contrast, I think most aikido rationalize they have aiki because they practice aikido; but, they have no direct knowledge about how their body works, so they can't specifically explain how they have aiki.

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What Keganin No Senshi Aikido Is Thomas Osborn External Aikido Blog Posts 1 04-24-2014 02:39 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 24 Peter Goldsbury Columns 6 07-07-2013 05:40 PM
Martial Ineffectiveness dps General 148 08-20-2012 09:15 AM
Integrity in our Aikido Community Marc Abrams Announcements & Feedback 41 02-14-2012 05:14 PM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:11 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2020 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2020 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate