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Old 03-31-2017, 06:31 PM   #26
MrIggy
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
And you do? And how do you prove?
Currently, no. Prove what?
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Old 03-31-2017, 06:53 PM   #27
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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John Hillson wrote: View Post
https://shakiaharris.wordpress.com/2...ll-that-blood/

A Gracie family champion on MMA and what it has done for his family's art. his comments resonate for me as an Aikido student.
Talk about hypocrisy, but OK. "Gracie" and "honor" in the same sentence, it's almost like an oxymoron.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:41 PM   #28
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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More that I keep getting told that for Aikido to be more realistic and more combat ready, we need to imitate MMA. MMA is not the pinnacle or an undefeatable combat art.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGbh7xJIrio - just show them this video and the one above with the marines.

The problem is that people look at martial arts as combat sports so they think that MMA is the "ultimate thing" when in fact it's just another activity that if it's taken out of context can have serious consequences. This guy explains the Falcao incident very clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6IKBsjbfGw .

Just the same as people scream WWE is fake and yet if one those WWE guys came out and grabbed an ordinary person and slammed them with a suplex they would most likely seriously hurt them of even kill them.
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:26 PM   #29
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

I think that many of Aikido's "struggles" stem from a diminishing interest on the part of many (mostly younger) instructors in maintaining a connection to the Founder. I see so many dojos where they bow to his picture to begin and end each class, but not one word in between about his vision, philosophies, training methods, evolution, etc. The fact is that each succeeding generation of aikidoka see less and less of what Aikido was intended to be by those who developed it. This lack of transmission will eventually make the practice unrecognizable, unless there develops a trend to "get back to the source".
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:45 PM   #30
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
I think that many of Aikido's "struggles" stem from a diminishing interest on the part of many (mostly younger) instructors in maintaining a connection to the Founder. I see so many dojos where they bow to his picture to begin and end each class, but not one word in between about his vision, philosophies, training methods, evolution, etc. The fact is that each succeeding generation of aikidoka see less and less of what Aikido was intended to be by those who developed it. This lack of transmission will eventually make the practice unrecognizable, unless there develops a trend to "get back to the source".
Hello Clark,

I recommend for your attention any studies you can find in English on the iemoto system. This was a system of adapting the art to changing circumstances, while at the same time maintaining a recognized and authentic lineage. There is no evidence that Morihei Ueshiba saw the art of aikido in these terms, and I know from direct conversations with him that Kisshomaru Ueshiba certainly did not. However, the present Doshu does think in these terms.

A Japanese scholar named Nishiyama Matsunosuke has written much on the iemoto system, but I do not know whether any of this is in English.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 04-02-2017, 02:25 AM   #31
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Helllo Peter,
I seem to remember a conversation with you in which you recounted some comments from Tada sensei. If I have it right he was asked who would continue his line of aikido when he was gone to which he replied, "No one, it's my aikido, no one else can do what I do. They ( whoever come next to take up the mantle) will have to do their aikido.
[[/b][ /I]Further, respectfully to Mr .Bateman, I would argue that most of the original deshi. did not understand O Sensei's vision, philosophies or technical principles. They all took bits, like the blind men and the elephant, and developed it further away from whatever it was.Of course, O Sensei did the same when he changed Takeda's DaitoRyu, adding some Kashima, possibly Katori Shintoryu, mixed in Omoto and some Chinese numerology, and voila , Aikido
This conversation is endless since nobody can define aikido and gain a consensus. Whio is doing "real" aikido? Uh, I don't know what aikido is so the "real" thing??

Last edited by Alec Corper : 04-02-2017 at 02:38 AM.

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Old 04-02-2017, 04:06 AM   #32
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Helllo Peter,
I seem to remember a conversation with you in which you recounted some comments from Tada sensei. If I have it right he was asked who would continue his line of aikido when he was gone to which he replied, "No one, it's my aikido, no one else can do what I do. They ( whoever come next to take up the mantle) will have to do their aikido.
[[/b][ /I]Further, respectfully to Mr .Bateman, I would argue that most of the original deshi. did not understand O Sensei's vision, philosophies or technical principles. They all took bits, like the blind men and the elephant, and developed it further away from whatever it was.Of course, O Sensei did the same when he changed Takeda's DaitoRyu, adding some Kashima, possibly Katori Shintoryu, mixed in Omoto and some Chinese numerology, and voila , Aikido
This conversation is endless since nobody can define aikido and gain a consensus. Whio is doing "real" aikido? Uh, I don't know what aikido is so the "real" thing??
Hello Alec,

Well, yes. I do remember that conversation and I also remember the conversation with Tada Shihan. I think it took place in Italy, during one of his summer schools.

I would take issue over one point only in your post. When the name was given to the art in 1942, it was given by what was effectively a government department--and I do not believe for one moment that the man who played the major role in doing this ever considered himself an uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba.

Tada added that he had done his best to show to his own students what he had 'stolen' from Morihei Ueshiba: he was never given it on a dish. In this respect he was in the same position as Kisshomaru Ueshiba, except that Kisshomaru regarded himself as the guardian of the family silver, so to speak, and Morihei Ueshiba did so, too. But I am not convinced that Morihei Ueshiba really set much store by this: he was very ambiguous about it. He always claimed that aikido would survive, but did not concern himself too much with taking any active steps to make this happen.

I had a private conversation with H Isoyama a few months ago. Isoyama began training in Iwama at the age of 12 and grew up under Saito's tutelage. Kisshomaru was also there and the Hombu was actually in Iwama at the time. He noted that a recurring problem in Iwama and in Tokyo was "what to do about the old man," up on the floating bridge with his deities, whereas Kisshomaru was concerned with trying to fashion aikido into an art that could actually survive in postwar Japan and that meant making some important compromises.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 04-02-2017, 04:30 AM   #33
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Hello Alec,

Well, yes. I do remember that conversation and I also remember the conversation with Tada Shihan. I think it took place in Italy, during one of his summer schools.

I would take issue over one point only in your post. When the name was given to the art in 1942, it was given by what was effectively a government department--and I do not believe for one moment that the man who played the major role in doing this ever considered himself an uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba.

Tada added that he had done his best to show to his own students what he had 'stolen' from Morihei Ueshiba: he was never given it on a dish. In this respect he was in the same position as Kisshomaru Ueshiba, except that Kisshomaru regarded himself as the guardian of the family silver, so to speak, and Morihei Ueshiba did so, too. But I am not convinced that Morihei Ueshiba really set much store by this: he was very ambiguous about it. He always claimed that aikido would survive, but did not concern himself too much with taking any active steps to make this happen.

I had a private conversation with H Isoyama a few months ago. Isoyama began training in Iwama at the age of 12 and grew up under Saito's tutelage. Kisshomaru was also there and the Hombu was actually in Iwama at the time. He noted that a recurring problem in Iwama and in Tokyo was "what to do about the old man," up on the floating bridge with his deities, whereas Kisshomaru was concerned with trying to fashion aikido into an art that could actually survive in postwar Japan and that meant making some important compromises.

Best wishes,

PAG
Hello Peter,
Yes, you are correct. I also understood that the 1942 decision was a "what do we call this stuff in the demo?" kind of process. Nevertheless Ueshiba aiki was a hybrid creation. I recall the stories of him coming to the dojo and demonstrating sword work and saying, "this is how they do it in Kashima but "we" do it like this", openly stating that he changed and modified according to own model of an ideal art, which apparently no one understood. AikidoŠ has a future, in spite of all that may be wrong with it, depending on the myriad definitions people employ. My personal pursuit, as you know, is more to rediscover and do what he did. That is challenging enough for me without worrying about "saving" an art which will morph with time, no matter what, if people just reproduce mechanical techniques, like turning a gendai art into a koryu, without the "ko" of course

warm regards,
Alec

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Old 04-02-2017, 05:20 AM   #34
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Hello again, Alec,

I think you can see Doshu's dilemma. He has to continue to teach the 'essence' of the art, but without knowing very much about what his grandfather actually did. He is a few years younger than I am and all he knows has been filtered via Kisshomaru and those deshi of Kisshomaru's generation. Doshu's son Mitsuteru will have an even bigger problem.

Apart from a few exceptions like Tomiki and Tohei, Kisshomaru allowed the old deshi like Tada, Yamaguchi, Arikawa to get on and teach what they had learned from Morihei Ueshiba directly, in so far as they understood this. The variety was allowed to flourish, but with the passage of time there has been an inevitable dumbing down and an increasingly frantic insistence that what the Hombu is doing is the only means of aikido salvation. I think if the Aikikai could make the eight basic waza into sacraments, they would leap at the chance.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 04-02-2017, 08:00 AM   #35
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Hello Alec and Peter!

I am enjoying your ongoing discussion... I'm just listening in, fascinated, because you both know much more than I about this subject...

My lament is a simple one, as I see (if you'll pardon the expression) a dilution of the core principles, due in part to a lack of transmission among modern teachers. I suppose much of this is to be expected, and certainly change is not entirely bad, but I can't help but wonder what aikido, by whatever definition each of us subscribes to, will look like in a generation or two.

There are many other arts of much greater age that have managed to retain their identity to a greater degree, and I am concerned whether future practitioners of our art will retain any of that "O'Sensei flavor"... Yes, I understand that O'Sensei himself was often so cryptic that two students hearing him talk would come away with two entirely different ideas of what he said, and this makes for an occluded path for "trickle down", but it just seems sad that there is not a clearer "compass" for the generations to look back on. After all, so much of aikido is about "center".

Please continue. Yours is good stuff...
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:58 AM   #36
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Apart from a few exceptions like Tomiki and Tohei, Kisshomaru allowed the old deshi like Tada, Yamaguchi, Arikawa to get on and teach what they had learned from Morihei Ueshiba directly, in so far as they understood this. The variety was allowed to flourish.

PAG
Thank you for this Peter. A few questions come to mind reading your comments.

1. I had read that Tomiki had to stop teaching at the Aikikai in the 50s. I realize O Sensei and Tomiki would have played roles and from the timeline I assumed Kisshomaru was involved somehow. Kisshomaru took an active role in not allowing Tomiki and his methods?

2. I was under the impression that many deshi like Chiba and Tada didn't just teach what they had learned directly but also were innovators who added to their body of knowledge that they taught?
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Old 04-02-2017, 10:42 AM   #37
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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I had read that Tomiki had to stop teaching at the Aikikai in the 50s. I realize O Sensei and Tomiki would have played roles and from the timeline I assumed Kisshomaru was involved somehow. Kisshomaru took an active role in not allowing Tomiki and his methods?
I can't help myself. I understood Tomiki was teaching at the Aikikai Honbu until the early 60s and attending events into the 70s. Most the upheaval vis a vis the older teachers occurred in the decade between 65-75 with Kisshomaru central to it. My impression was that geographical distance from honbu had a strong effect in how strong the push was.

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Old 04-02-2017, 04:50 PM   #38
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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I can't help myself. I understood Tomiki was teaching at the Aikikai Honbu until the early 60s and attending events into the 70s. Most the upheaval vis a vis the older teachers occurred in the decade between 65-75 with Kisshomaru central to it. My impression was that geographical distance from honbu had a strong effect in how strong the push was.
Thanks for speaking up Peter, and please don't feel you need to control yourself on my account. If I gave any offense, I apologize. I had read late fifties somewhere, but ultimately I was born in 1970. The history is murky. Morihei Ueshiba died before I was born, and his son died before I arrived in Japan for the first time. I have no one local to turn to and say, "Well, you were there, what was this about..."

We ask about the future of Aikido and where it is going, while we usually don't know where we've been and cannot define ourselves completely as a result. Some of the discussions of our past and future, to me, are like a discussion of astrophysics where no one is allowed to mention gravity or Isaac Newton.
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Old 04-02-2017, 06:17 PM   #39
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Thank you for this Peter. A few questions come to mind reading your comments.

1. I had read that Tomiki had to stop teaching at the Aikikai in the 50s. I realize O Sensei and Tomiki would have played roles and from the timeline I assumed Kisshomaru was involved somehow. Kisshomaru took an active role in not allowing Tomiki and his methods?

2. I was under the impression that many deshi like Chiba and Tada didn't just teach what they had learned directly but also were innovators who added to their body of knowledge that they taught?
Hello John,

With respect to Point 1, see my response to Peter M’s post.

With respect to Point 2, the deshi you mention lived outside Japan for many years and I know from talking to Chiba himself that he had to adapt what he had learned in the Hombu to the conditions he found in the UK. If you have recently arrived in the UK – an ‘alien’ country, you cannot speak English, and you need to teach a strongly-built Welsh miner, for example, how to take ukemi, you have to deal somehow with his quite natural resistance. I do not think Chiba would have had many options available to him at that time and in face he left something of a trail of destruction and havoc. But he also attracted some very good students. I remember at the time that he had a favourite repertoire of waza. Kanai Shihan did, also, and my own teacher here in Hiroshima. One of the latter’s favourites I have never seen done anywhere else, unless I have occasionally showed it during seminars.

I should add that I was in the US when Kisshomaru Ueshiba visited the US in 1974. He was on his way to Hawaii to meet Koichi Tohei. At the time, there was much gossip in the Cambridge dojo about what Kanai would do to Tohei if he met him by chance on a dark night -- and happened to have his sword with him.

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 04-02-2017 at 06:20 PM.

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Old 04-02-2017, 07:26 PM   #40
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I can't help myself. I understood Tomiki was teaching at the Aikikai Honbu until the early 60s and attending events into the 70s. Most the upheaval vis a vis the older teachers occurred in the decade between 65-75 with Kisshomaru central to it. My impression was that geographical distance from honbu had a strong effect in how strong the push was.
Hello Peter,

I have not checked whether F Shishida has published anything about the episode, but there is an account of a meeting between Kenji Tomiki and Morihei Ueshiba in Kisshomaru's autobiography. Since he recounts what was said, I assume that he was either present at the meeting or heard it directly afterwards and from either or both participants.

Kisshomaru adds a comment, and I am going to quote the Japanese text first.

 氏は、一度いい出すと、なかなか意見を変わらない人でした。しかたなく、私は氏の話も聞いておこうと、他の師範のも富木氏の取り組みについて、できる限り協力、研究して みように勧めたほどうです。
Mr Tomiki was a man who rarely changed his opinion, once he had expressed it. The matter was unfortunate, but I listened to what he said, and, to the extent that I was able to, undertook to study further the matter of how to deal with the problems that had been raised with Mr Tomiki and other shihans.

 富木氏は、その後、競技化しなければ、これからはいかなる武道も学校の正課には入らないという見解を持つようになりました。 (『合気道一路』, p.186.)
After this, Mr Tomiki strongly held to his belief that without becoming competitive, budo could not be admitted as a subject to be taught in schools. (Aikido Ichiro, p. 186.)

I checked the old teaching lists in the aikido manuals published in the 1960s, but there were no lists given of instructors at the Hombu. I know that Mr Tomiki was still connected with the Hombu after Morihei Ueshiba passed away in 1969, but I am not sure when he stopped teaching there. Mr Shishida might know. I suspect the withdrawal was gradual, a drifting away, rather than with a flash and a bang.

The timespan given by Kisshomaru for Mr Tomiki's very frequent visits to the Aikikai in Tokyo and in Iwama was before this, after he had returned to Japan from Siberia, during the three years from Showa 26 (1951) onwards.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 04-03-2017, 12:42 AM   #41
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Thanks Peter - my point was that, as you said, a gradual drifting rather than a ban. I can not remember exactly where I first heard the early 60s date. I can find it (internet search) in a book written by a non-Japanse about Tomiki aikido and I assume he heard it from the same source.

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Old 04-03-2017, 02:01 AM   #42
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

"History is written by the victors " Apostates or innovators? I trained with Hiroshi Kato Shihan in the last years of his life. I sometimes heard him affectionately mention the "boy" at the edge of the mat in his training days. He was, of course, referring to the Doshu.
As Peter has already indicated, contrary to what many assert, there is no line to the past, it has been broken several times. I had the good fortune to train with Kitahira once, thanks to Peter, and was not surprised when he did a number of techniques that Kato was doing, including finger locks and foot traps, not just performed as jujitsu, but with kuzushi and maai of an aikido,character. I have been training this way for some time and I clearly remember being in the Hombu and using some of this when I felt the Doshu watching. He was very careful not to indicate displeasure but I felt he didn't approve. After all his job is to be the standard bearer of the official sanitized version of aikido.
I can't see that the history of the Hombu has much to do with the history of aikido, let alone the future. The instructors who went out and built dojos in the early years were, in the main, beginners who had trained intensely for a relatively short period of time. They arrived in a Western society where their art was not known and had to modify to survive. Again, as Peter said, this led to many English people bearing the gifts of Chiba Sensei for the rest of their lives. I never trained with the man but I did train with his successor and saw how much he was governed by matching something that was already a departure from where they began.
I tried to locate a video clip out there somewhere. I believe it is of Chiba, Kanai, and Yamada as young yudansha smashing each other around in the Hombu. Great fun, smash and grab youth judo, very little subtlety or grace, just raw power and spirit. I compare that to Ueshib's demonstrations and draw the inference that a lot of the young lions were only too happy to cut loose when The Old Man was not around.
Whose history are we talking about?

Last edited by Alec Corper : 04-03-2017 at 02:05 AM.

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Old 04-03-2017, 06:56 AM   #43
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Tada added that he had done his best to show to his own students what he had 'stolen' from Morihei Ueshiba: he was never given it on a dish.
Neither does he give anything on a dish but, by all accounts, he and his students are/were much more open to at least discussing several "obscure" topics concerning the way Aikido should be trained.

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I think if the Aikikai could make the eight basic waza into sacraments, they would leap at the chance.
Which are those 8 basic waza?
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:08 AM   #44
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Good vid. A lot of information I didn't know and caught me up

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Old 04-03-2017, 09:29 PM   #45
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Neither does he give anything on a dish but, by all accounts, he and his students are/were much more open to at least discussing several "obscure" topics concerning the way Aikido should be trained.

Which are those 8 basic waza?
There should really be ten: five throws and five pins: irimi-nage, shiho nage, tenchi-nage, kaiten-nage, kote-gaeshi; and 1-kyou to 5-kyou. They are all illustrated and explained from a variety of attacks in 『規範合気道基本編』. I think the English version of this book is called Best Aikido.

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Old 04-04-2017, 10:02 AM   #46
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
There should really be ten: five throws and five pins: irimi-nage, shiho nage, tenchi-nage, kaiten-nage, kote-gaeshi; and 1-kyou to 5-kyou. They are all illustrated and explained from a variety of attacks in 『規範合気道基本編』. I think the English version of this book is called Best Aikido.
Jujigarami/jujinage being an ikkyo version?

Higikime/rokkyo being a nikyo version?

Sayunage/kokyunage/aigamaeate being sokumen iriminage?

Koshinage being variations on all the above?

Thanks for sharing this.
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Old 04-04-2017, 01:48 PM   #47
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Jujigarami/jujinage being an ikkyo version?

Higikime/rokkyo being a nikyo version?

Sayunage/kokyunage/aigamaeate being sokumen iriminage?

Koshinage being variations on all the above?

Thanks for sharing this.
Hello John,

There is another volume of the book, entitled 応用編 (applied, as opposed to basic), which deals with variations on irimi-nage, shiho-nage, kaiten-nage, with aiki-otoshi, koshi-nage, juji-garami, and various types of koyuu-nage. Kotegaeshi has a separate section, since it is regarded as a combination of a throw and a pin, and this is followed by whole section dealing with variations on the arm pins. All the items you have mentioned are included.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 04-05-2017, 01:36 PM   #48
MrIggy
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
There should really be ten: five throws and five pins: irimi-nage, shiho nage, tenchi-nage, kaiten-nage, kote-gaeshi; and 1-kyou to 5-kyou. They are all illustrated and explained from a variety of attacks in 『規範合気道基本編』. I think the English version of this book is called Best Aikido.
http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/publica.../best/best.htm

This one perhaps?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
There is another volume of the book, entitled 応用編 (applied, as opposed to basic), which deals with variations on irimi-nage, shiho-nage, kaiten-nage, with aiki-otoshi, koshi-nage, juji-garami, and various types of koyuu-nage. Kotegaeshi has a separate section, since it is regarded as a combination of a throw and a pin, and this is followed by whole section dealing with variations on the arm pins. All the items you have mentioned are included.
http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/publica...est2/best2.htm

It's called "Best Aikido 2"?
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Old 04-05-2017, 04:03 PM   #49
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
http://ikazuchi.com/2017/03/28/the-future-of-aikido/

One would think with all the bad rep "modern" Aikido is getting people would be happy it's "dying".
I like what Mr. Dean has to say, but I dislike the language suggesting that Aikido is dying or dead. It seems like one may as well say humanity is dying or dead because we don't resemble some idealized past. It's yes and no. Dilution and concentration are both taking place. There are people who apply Aikido to any number of scenarios and find it to be a highly successful platform for their goals. Popularity may be waning, but I don't consider that to be a particularly useful measure of an art.
As far as I can tell, which is admittedly limited, the foundation to any martial art is disciplined intent; that will always vary from person to person and over time you will see differentiation, particularly when it comes to the intent portion.
Whatever the case, I would like to see Mr. Dean represent Aikido more than the other guy, who didn't seem particularly knowledgeable (thinking of the "'70's video" comment). I think he would be a more authentic voice. Not that the other guy's voice wasn't, but my hunch is that Mr. Dean is quite a bit more of an expert.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-05-2017 at 04:12 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-07-2017, 05:18 AM   #50
MrIggy
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

I honestly don't understand why he wants to go on Joe Rogan's show, it's ridiculous.
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