Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Internal Training in Aikido

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-14-2017, 02:56 PM   #126
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
From my perspective, aikido is aiki-do, the study of aiki. The point I am trying to make is that I don't want to do jujutsu - I want to train aikido. So what is the point of doing techniques that lack aiki? Do it 10,000 times and all you have practiced is 10,000 techniques that don't have aiki. Now you're an expert in techniques without aiki. This makes no sense.
Morihei Ueshiba originally taught aikijujutsu, and was handing out Daito Ryu aikijujutsu scrolls in his earliest days of teaching. Later, he formulated aikido by retaining just the bare-bones jujutsu waza necessary to serve as a vehicle for different ways of applying aiki body method to power them.
He became more esoteric, and it seems his students were unable to understand and learn the aiki aspect. When Kisshomaru took over the post-war dojo, the mechanics of aikido were completely changed to function on a different power driver (i.e. overt movement) instead of the original internal/aiki one. The strategy and tactics of contemporary aikido thus changed as well, to something nearly polar-opposite to that of aikijujutsu. Different drivers led to different arts altogether.

Now, some aikidoka are learning the old aiki method and reverse engineering it into their aikido. I suspect that they are finding that it changes the dynamic of their waza. Before long, it will lead to a change in the dynamic of martial strategy and tactical movement, too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 03:27 PM   #127
Brian Sutton
Location: Roswell Ga.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 51
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

No...
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 03:54 PM   #128
Bernd Lehnen
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 144
Germany
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
.....Later, he formulated aikido by retaining just the bare-bones jujutsu waza necessary to serve as a vehicle for different ways of applying aiki body method to power them.
He became more esoteric, ....
o.
Where is there evidence? Is there?

Best,
Bernd
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 04:05 PM   #129
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Where is there evidence? Is there?

Best,
Bernd
Depends on where your perspective and experiences are. Then, there are observations, combined with the known history of aikido, including interviews with deshi.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 05:49 PM   #130
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,232
Japan
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Where is there evidence? Is there?

Best,
Bernd
Hello Bernd,

There is loads of evidence, but you need to read Onisaburo Deguchi's material and it is all in Japanese, some of it handwritten. However, I think the changes Cady mentioned will be relatively slow to appear in mainstream aikido.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 07:14 PM   #131
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Peter,
Yes, I am sure that any change will be slow, and certainly not in all quarters of the aikido world. Rather, small groups or individuals will adapt their aikido and there will be those unique dojo with something different than the mainstream. But mainstream contemporary aikido is its own thing, an art in its own right, and will likely continue on as it is.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 08:56 PM   #132
GovernorSilver
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 108
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Ikeda and Ledyard are trying to get Aikidoka to use this kind of power by teaching on Aikido seminar tours. That is how I met Ledyard - it was during lunch break during a seminar weekend.

Ikeda ended up spending the entire seminar trying to get people to achieve instant kuzushi off of a wrist grab - with no visible movement of the hips or just about any other body part of the nage. He was trying to get us to do it with "aiki" or force vector manipulation or whatever you want to call it. But we weren't able to demonstrate that skill to his satisfaction, so he never did move us on to more "fun shit to do with aiki" type material. It's like Greg Maddux wanting to teach us his trademark changeup pitch, but not being able to do it because we can't even get the basic leg kick right, let alone throw a basic fastball without breaking our shoulders.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 09:15 PM   #133
GovernorSilver
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 108
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Nice description of the sensation and feel, Paolo.
You were feeling the effects of what George Ledyard was organizing and moving within his body and directing through your structural alignment to your center of mass. Not waza, but if applied to waza, the waza would be infused with aiki and have a different kind of effect than just a straight jujutsu application.

And yes, it "doesn't look like anything" when you are just letting someone feel the process. Without applying it with a technique, it's just quietly affecting your structure from within. If he isn't applying enough force to collapse or move your structure -- but to just let you feel it -- than to someone watching, it will look like you are just standing there holding hands.
Yes, when he took hold of my wrist, and asked "Feel that?", it was a WTF moment.

The problem with Ikeda was that he'd tell the whole room his intention before he did whatever to his uke, thus adding the question of "Is he really doing it, or is it the power of suggestion?". Of course Ikeda has a real skill, based on feeling him, but I think it would help his teaching if he did X to the uke, then told the room what he did instead of the other way around. Whereas, George sent his force to my shoulder or my front hip or whatever, THEN asked me "Where am I now?".

I forgot how I got George to even spend this extra time with me during lunch break. Good luck, I guess. Whenever he said "You're stuck at my shoulder" or that I'm stuck at some other area while trying to connect to his center, it was when I lost the connection to the ground force via my back foot - usually a shoulder tensing up, or maybe an elbow. Later on in the seminar, Ikeda scolded us for not being able to do what he does, because "you don't believe". To me, he's referring to the fact that this stuff is driven by intent - just like I can drink my beer by intending to reach for the mug and raise it to my lips. If you don't believe that your intent can drive something, nothing works. Of course, none of this stuff will work anyway without the required level of relaxation and active ground force.

I feel bad for the aikidoka who thought this seminar was a waste of time and money, but I found it worthwhile and inspirational. That's one of the reasons I keep practicing zhan zhuang (pole standing) regularly - it really is one of the best ways to force the upper body to relax while also training the use of the two basic force vectors. I could also see why not too many people are going to get this aiki thing or 6H or whatever one wants to call it, because who's going to carve out 15-20 min. of their day to just stand? Plus the other solo training that may be required? There's a video in which Chen Xiaowang says he practices standing for as much as 1 hr a day. Ok, he's a Taiji guy, not Daito Ryu, but still people adore his explosive power.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 03-14-2017 at 09:20 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 09:47 PM   #134
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

With all due respect to Ikeda Sensei, there must be much more explicit "instruction" than "you have to believe." It is a process, and must be taught as a set of conditions that create an effect.

In the Chinese internal arts, the saying is "I (or "Yi") - Qi - Li" -- in other words, Mind/Intent sparks Energy, which sparks Power. Some extend the saying to "Desire moves Intent; Intent moves Energy; Energy moves Power. Either way, it is a neuromuscular firing that turns the non-verbal drive of desire/intent to action. This is something that any athlete or dancer uses to do what they do. Even when you simply reach for a glass of beer to take a sip, that is the process you are going through. The desire you feel for a sip of beer sparks the mental intent to reach for the glass. The intent sparks the nerve synapses and the muscles, which respond and reach for the beer, bring it back to your mouth, etc. We do these things without conscious thought... we just "do."

With internal martial arts, we have to begin by consciously being deliberate and aware. Then we use that volition, or intent, to recognize and then deliberately isolate and activate very specific muscles, fascia and tendons to achieve the effects we want.

But first, the teacher has to tell you what those muscles and tissues are, and what to feel for. I think that many people do not know how to articulate this.

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Yes, when he took hold of my wrist, and asked "Feel that?", it was a WTF moment.

The problem with Ikeda was that he'd tell the whole room his intention before he did whatever to his uke, thus adding the question of "Is he really doing it, or is it the power of suggestion?". Of course Ikeda has a real skill, based on feeling him, but I think it would help his teaching if he did X to the uke, then told the room what he did instead of the other way around. Whereas, George sent his force to my shoulder or my front hip or whatever, THEN asked me "Where am I now?".

I forgot how I got George to even spend this extra time with me during lunch break. Good luck, I guess. Whenever he said "You're stuck at my shoulder" or that I'm stuck at some other area while trying to connect to his center, it was when I lost the connection to the ground force via my back foot - usually a shoulder tensing up, or maybe an elbow. Later on in the seminar, Ikeda scolded us for not being able to do what he does, because "you don't believe". To me, he's referring to the fact that this stuff is driven by intent - just like I can drink my beer by intending to reach for the mug and raise it to my lips. If you don't believe that your intent can drive something, nothing works. Of course, none of this stuff will work anyway without the required level of relaxation and active ground force.

I feel bad for the aikidoka who thought this seminar was a waste of time and money, but I found it worthwhile and inspirational. That's one of the reasons I keep practicing zhan zhuang (pole standing) regularly - it really is one of the best ways to force the upper body to relax while also training the use of the two basic force vectors. I could also see why not too many people are going to get this aiki thing or 6H or whatever one wants to call it, because who's going to carve out 15-20 min. of their day to just stand? Plus the other solo training that may be required? There's a video in which Chen Xiaowang says he practices standing for as much as 1 hr a day. Ok, he's a Taiji guy, not Daito Ryu, but still people adore his explosive power.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2017, 05:43 AM   #135
GovernorSilver
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 108
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
With all due respect to Ikeda Sensei, there must be much more explicit "instruction" than "you have to believe." It is a process, and must be taught as a set of conditions that create an effect.

In the Chinese internal arts, the saying is "I (or "Yi") - Qi - Li" -- in other words, Mind/Intent sparks Energy, which sparks Power. Some extend the saying to "Desire moves Intent; Intent moves Energy; Energy moves Power. Either way, it is a neuromuscular firing that turns the non-verbal drive of desire/intent to action. This is something that any athlete or dancer uses to do what they do. Even when you simply reach for a glass of beer to take a sip, that is the process you are going through. The desire you feel for a sip of beer sparks the mental intent to reach for the glass. The intent sparks the nerve synapses and the muscles, which respond and reach for the beer, bring it back to your mouth, etc. We do these things without conscious thought... we just "do."

With internal martial arts, we have to begin by consciously being deliberate and aware. Then we use that volition, or intent, to recognize and then deliberately isolate and activate very specific muscles, fascia and tendons to achieve the effects we want.

But first, the teacher has to tell you what those muscles and tissues are, and what to feel for. I think that many people do not know how to articulate this.
After the seminar, I was able to ask around a bit and what I gathered was that Ikeda taught some solo and partner training stuff at seminars in past years; including but obviously not limited to, "sitting zhan zhuang" and force vectoring between partners sharing a jo. He reportedly also spoke of dantien rotation exercise and exerting jin against a wall, counter tops, etc. Nobody though mentioned him explaining the 3 Internal Harmonies (of the Six Harmonies) which you mention above. In any case, Ikeda expected those who attended his seminars in past years to remember what he taught in the past and be actively practicing the stuff. I don't see though how this can work without a review of the basics. All the good workshops I've attended (in music as well as MA) always started with a review of the basics before proceeding to the funner, more advanced stuff.

Of the two basic force vectors, I found gravity trickier to use, even under the guidance of a teacher with good communication skills, in the most obvious scenario to use it: The single-leg takedown. I had trouble understanding that it requires intent to work. Again, this is with a good teacher actually supervising. I can only imagine just how much harder it is for random guy to learn to use it when the teacher is presenting it as "make line to partner tailbone", then walks around a crowded dojo in which random dude has only a 50% chance of the teacher coming to his side of the mat. "Make line" is a clear reference to intent ("Yi") but it was difficult for the teacher to communicate that the upper body must be relaxed, and there must be an active ground force.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2017, 10:40 AM   #136
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

I have heard and read about the same concerns from seminar attendees of other teachers of internal methods. One of the problems I see for teachers who do many seminars and have a lot of repeat attendees, is how to present material that will take the more experienced people to the next level, while also being able to address the needs of the first-timers and less-experienced attendees.

This is a relatively new "industry," and I suspect that most of these instructors are learning by trial and error. Those with seminar participants who have been to six or more sessions over the years, might be seeing these people more as students, and may want to work with them further and let assistants help the newbies. Maybe they should have beginner, intermediate and advanced seminars to address the different skill levels. My sense, though, is that this option is not so viable for instructors who are traveling long distances and need to ensure that there will be enough students enrolled in a seminar to make the trip viable. Hence, they may continue to offer just one seminar in a particular location, then dedicate part of one day to introductory basics/review, and the rest to introducing new material to the old-timers.

Whatever the issues are regarding the content of the seminars themselves, I do believe that the teaching language -- the ability to articulate principles and concepts -- is the biggest problem, and seems to be what is most confusing to seminar attendees. Unless a teacher is deliberately withholding some information or guidance , the chief obstacle to transmission of knowledge is usually in the way it's communicated. Some seem to still be struggling with being able to explain in detail exactly what each tanren/drill is supposed to accomplish, what specific body tissues and mechanics you must recognize and activate to do it, and how to test whether you are activating the correct things.

Remedy to this can be as simple as coming up with very basic pre-tanren mini-exercises that simply help you find a particular muscle or fascia sheet and make it move. Analogies and metaphors can also help. For instance, the "beer sip" one that I described earlier, can help you parse out the process of making an action that we do without deliberation, and take for granted. Now, apply that to consciously activating one specific muscle that you know is part of the "rotate dantian/tanden" process. If you know where and what that muscle is, you should be able to deliberately make it move... that's the same intent that makes you reach out with your hand to pick up a cup. See what I mean?

Another thing to consider: Each teacher has different jargon, terminology, and training drills, so cross-training at different teachers' events can add to the confusion. My recommendation to people wanting to learn these skills, is to choose one teacher and his/her method, and stick to it.

Don't expect to be an expert even after a lot of seminars. As I'm sure you know, the only way to get a complete education in this, as in any skill, is through direct transmission/jikiden from the teacher, over the course of years. But, it is reasonable to expect to learn some things about structure, energy use and force, that will improve and enhance your aikido or other art IF you take good notes, practice constantly and consistently, and correspond with others who are training the same way, to compare notes and help each other with understanding.

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
After the seminar, I was able to ask around a bit and what I gathered was that Ikeda taught some solo and partner training stuff at seminars in past years; including but obviously not limited to, "sitting zhan zhuang" and force vectoring between partners sharing a jo. He reportedly also spoke of dantien rotation exercise and exerting jin against a wall, counter tops, etc. Nobody though mentioned him explaining the 3 Internal Harmonies (of the Six Harmonies) which you mention above. In any case, Ikeda expected those who attended his seminars in past years to remember what he taught in the past and be actively practicing the stuff. I don't see though how this can work without a review of the basics. All the good workshops I've attended (in music as well as MA) always started with a review of the basics before proceeding to the funner, more advanced stuff.

Of the two basic force vectors, I found gravity trickier to use, even under the guidance of a teacher with good communication skills, in the most obvious scenario to use it: The single-leg takedown. I had trouble understanding that it requires intent to work. Again, this is with a good teacher actually supervising. I can only imagine just how much harder it is for random guy to learn to use it when the teacher is presenting it as "make line to partner tailbone", then walks around a crowded dojo in which random dude has only a 50% chance of the teacher coming to his side of the mat. "Make line" is a clear reference to intent ("Yi") but it was difficult for the teacher to communicate that the upper body must be relaxed, and there must be an active ground force.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 03-15-2017 at 10:55 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2017, 05:22 PM   #137
GovernorSilver
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 108
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

I had the time and some extra money, so I took advantage of the opportunity to attend the Ikeda-Ledyard seminar. No regrets on my part. I was just lucky that Budd's workshop was right before the seminar.

I'm not ready to focus on becoming invincible or an expert. If I can just get my MA seniors to stop nagging me to relax, that would be good enough for the foreseeable future. I understand they nag me because they have been able to see the tension in my body. But lately, they say I'm getting better - progress!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2017, 05:29 PM   #138
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Like I said, anything you gain from this training will enhance your aikido and can take you to amazing places. Great that you are getting positive feedback from people who know what they are seeing/feeling in you. Good luck, keep up the good work, and enjoy your training.

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
I had the time and some extra money, so I took advantage of the opportunity to attend the Ikeda-Ledyard seminar. No regrets on my part. I was just lucky that Budd's workshop was right before the seminar.

I'm not ready to focus on becoming invincible or an expert. If I can just get my MA seniors to stop nagging me to relax, that would be good enough for the foreseeable future. I understand they nag me because they have been able to see the tension in my body. But lately, they say I'm getting better - progress!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2017, 10:50 PM   #139
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 989
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
It takes very little aiki to affect an opponent's structure. When the opponent attacks with force, it just increases the amount of energy that nage has available to work with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PlxpWywLiY&t=4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIl5tE-do8Y
I like what I see here - have seen these vids before - but I have to say, that a lot of my Aikikai experience in the UK and Japan was just like that. And ... it does NOT lead to the students being able to do aiki at all. Self-flying/falling uke syndrome is predominant everywhere.

If the aiki training does not target real aggressive resistance it can have no validity. Aikidoka are just too passive. Likewise in Jujutsu schools.

We must be passive to get the concept, of course, but then we must seek resistance to test it. If your uke falls over - you need a new uke because he is of no more use to you. You need to find someone you can't do it on to improve. BUT, if you go too far in the other direction, you just end up with what I call Aiki-Judo. Also, nagare training is not aiki training either. it is just compliance training. It is useful, but it does not lead to aiki.

But going back to the start ... those vids are excellent ... just ... go try it on an uncooperative uke. If you can do that .. then yes ... I will be impressed.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 03-15-2017 at 10:59 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 02:45 AM   #140
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,247
Spain
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
But going back to the start ... those vids are excellent ... just ... go try it on an uncooperative uke. If you can do that .. then yes ... I will be impressed.
But, but... uke is going to get killed!!!

Remember the tale of Ueshiba being asked by Admiral Takeshita to demo in front of a member of the Imperial family...
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 08:17 AM   #141
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

These are not self-flying uke, Rupert. They are mechanically impelled to move. Their structure is being controlled.

Many of these things can be done by pain compliance, but aikijujutsu waza driven by internals/aiki actually make uke go whether he "wants" to or not. That's why Ueshiba said "Aiki is making people do what I want them to."

What Salahuddin Muhammad is doing is these videos is -nothing- like Aikikai. Aikikai lacks the internal drivers employed here, and relies instead on overt movement and psychological tactics.

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I like what I see here - have seen these vids before - but I have to say, that a lot of my Aikikai experience in the UK and Japan was just like that. And ... it does NOT lead to the students being able to do aiki at all. Self-flying/falling uke syndrome is predominant everywhere.

If the aiki training does not target real aggressive resistance it can have no validity. Aikidoka are just too passive. Likewise in Jujutsu schools.

We must be passive to get the concept, of course, but then we must seek resistance to test it. If your uke falls over - you need a new uke because he is of no more use to you. You need to find someone you can't do it on to improve. BUT, if you go too far in the other direction, you just end up with what I call Aiki-Judo. Also, nagare training is not aiki training either. it is just compliance training. It is useful, but it does not lead to aiki.

But going back to the start ... those vids are excellent ... just ... go try it on an uncooperative uke. If you can do that .. then yes ... I will be impressed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 10:52 AM   #142
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,152
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Wanna hear about another metric to determine if you are doing aiki (or having aiki done to you)?Compulsion. Seriously. Often, we think of pain as a compliance mechanic, but aiki does not necessarily require it. Aiki feels more like you are compelled to move without a concrete understanding of why. This feeling has been described by several of O Sensei's students, as well as others practicing in the aiki arts.

So here is where I say to think back on everyone you work with and critically evaluate whether the exchange between you was compelled. Did you move only because it hurt? Did you move because you were told to move? Did you move as a act of charity? Did you move because it was the form? If that little voice in the back of your head said "yes," to any of these questions... Then you were probably not experiencing aiki (or moving with aiki). Simply put, if you were uke and you moved because you chose to move... If you were nage and you ever commanded your partner to move because otherwise she was not moving... There is usually a long silence here as the disbelief sets in. I'll wait...

Most of our aikido experience lacks aiki - we work out with students who don't possess aiki - we don't possess aiki - and our instructors often don't possess aiki. Sometimes, we go to a seminar or gets hands on someone and the difference is so great, we often say something like, "She feels like nothing I've felt!" Or, "He's softer than anyone I have touched!" Then there's the deshi favorite, "I didn't know what was happening to me." or go totally Eastern mystical, "In a flash I was unable to move." These are all concrete descriptions of the unique feeling of aiki and different from how we usually feel.

So after dropping that bomb... Demetrio's comment about O Sensei's demo makes sense. Most of us are used to training in a way that hearing an aikido person say, "with that move I could kill you," is pretty difficult to take seriously. We sometimes even giggle or chuckle as we say it. Here's how backwards we are though. O Sensei making a comment like that is something to chuckle at, yet I can't count the number of times on the mat someone told me to move because a devastating blow was coming my way if I didn't. And since it seems like I am insulting the world in this post, let me just continue on my streak... O Sensei could deliver devastating blows; many of us can't.

The honest truth is most of us are not familiar with that kind of movement or the feeling associated with it. Looking at a video without the experience to sympathize with what is happening makes for a difficult time to comprehend the reality of what we see. This is the core of it has to be felt, and the the problem with Internet-based conversations. Moving to a disadvantaged position is counter-intuitive to most fight science. In no practical way should we willfully move to a position that weakens our advantage. Why practice a system that asks you to disadvantage yourself? You shouldn't and you could look at this issue as yet another indicator that maybe we are not correctly moving.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 11:57 AM   #143
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 989
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
These are not self-flying uke, Rupert. They are mechanically impelled to move. Their structure is being controlled.
.
I have experienced the above in a few places - and in a few Aikikai instructors. Yes - I agree with you - it is very good - it is what we should be after - and all their students try to do it. But ... none of them can do it. Add my assertion is that when they are doing it, it is because they are just being too compliant. They become overly trained to react in that way. And .. I say .. that is why it becomes so elusive. I am guilty of it myself. Once infected - hard to get rid of - the compliance, I mean. Catch 22.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 05:45 PM   #144
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I have experienced the above in a few places - and in a few Aikikai instructors. Yes - I agree with you - it is very good - it is what we should be after - and all their students try to do it. But ... none of them can do it. Add my assertion is that when they are doing it, it is because they are just being too compliant. They become overly trained to react in that way. And .. I say .. that is why it becomes so elusive. I am guilty of it myself. Once infected - hard to get rid of - the compliance, I mean. Catch 22.
Test it on newcomers, people with no martial training. Preferably, big, huge guys. I have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 09:19 PM   #145
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 331
Serbia
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Jujutsu is waza. Aiki is body method -- the power-driver. When aiki and jujutsu waza are combined, you get aikijujutsu. Aiki allows you to manipulate your own internal muscle, fascia and tendon in ways that reinforce your structure and generate power that can penetrate an opponent's structure without making much overt movement. Without the aiki, it is jujutsu... which is dependent on externally-applied leverage, vectors, and overt movement of mass to work.
Yes, that's what i get from the writings and explanations. Aiki is what made Daito ryu different then all the other arts of the time and still today.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 09:30 PM   #146
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 989
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Test it on newcomers, people with no martial training. Preferably, big, huge guys. I have.
I test my stuff on whoever I can. My favourite guys are the ones it doesn't work on.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 09:38 PM   #147
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 331
Serbia
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Morihei Ueshiba originally taught aikijujutsu, and was handing out Daito Ryu aikijujutsu scrolls in his earliest days of teaching. Later, he formulated aikido by retaining just the bare-bones jujutsu waza necessary to serve as a vehicle for different ways of applying aiki body method to power them.
He also practiced and developed weapons techniques at the time, probably because he wanted to teach Aiki through them to soldiers in the army.

Quote:
He became more esoteric, and it seems his students were unable to understand and learn the aiki aspect. When Kisshomaru took over the post-war dojo, the mechanics of aikido were completely changed to function on a different power driver (i.e. overt movement) instead of the original internal/aiki one. The strategy and tactics of contemporary aikido thus changed as well, to something nearly polar-opposite to that of aikijujutsu. Different drivers led to different arts altogether.
I wound't say completely changed, and definitely not with all deshi in the Aikikai. Even now there can be seen techniques identical to those of O'Sensei from some of the books he published, within the instructors from the Aikikai. The main difference is that there are so many variations that certain groups only do certain variations of techniques. Morihiro Saito, by all accounts, preserved all of the techniques just as he learned them directly from O'Sensei, also by many accounts Yoshinkan and Iwama are very similar in the execution in their techniques. What is in fact the main difference is the lack of Aiki exercises in all styles.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 09:53 PM   #148
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 331
Serbia
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

While we are on the subject. Does anybody know about practitioners from Yoshinkan, Iwama or Shodokan who have dabbled in the world of Aiki and if they had more success in developing Aiki? I mean if the waza was mean't to be a vessel for Aiki, the practitioners from those styles, which are officially more authentic in the waza to that of O'Sensei, should have had it easier to develop Aiki.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 10:05 PM   #149
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 331
Serbia
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Most of us are used to training in a way that hearing an aikido person say, "with that move I could kill you," is pretty difficult to take seriously.
Depends on whom you are talking to. For the most part i agree that it's an outlandish claim, but only for the person making the claim. Not for certain techniques themselves.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2017, 10:18 PM   #150
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 331
Serbia
Offline
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Why are we ignoring "instant"? Why are we ignoring multiple references to kuzushi on contact, a trait described by almost ever deshi who was ever interviewed when asked about attacking O Sensei. Because we can't do it, so it must be wrong. Or, better yet, a metaphor.
I wouldn't say people are ignoring rather "instant kuzushi" is thought of being a part of regular waza training dependent on timing and reaction not of Aiki for which most doesn't even know exist as a separate training activity. So in a sense it is a metaphor. Instead of being "Aiki kuzushi", controlling Uke with power gained from internal training regimes, it is "waza kuzushi", pure physical control of Uke based on external practices.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yukiyoshi Sagawa's Aiki, a true portrait of Transparent Power - Interview with Tatsuo Kimura Part 2 Chris Li Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 18 09-05-2015 11:48 AM
Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki" ChrisHein Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 60 01-06-2013 11:29 AM
Aiki Ken and Ken justu Tsunemori Techniques 62 11-29-2011 07:39 AM
Ueshiba's Aiki Chris Knight General 624 11-20-2011 07:35 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:03 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate