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Old 09-15-2000, 08:43 AM   #26
Mike Collins
Location: San Jose
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 189
United_States
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Cas,

I don't think I did miss your point, I wasn't disagreeing, only (I thought) adding a dimension to the topic.

Fact is, virtually never are two Aikidoists "equal" in ability. In most situations, one or the other is more advanced in at least one way.

I have trained with people who left me no choice as to the fall I took, I love that training. Most of the time, though I can pretty much keep up with things and fall as gently for me as I need. I like that training too. One is not more real than the other. Ukemi can also be a wonderful way of teaching technique. My teacher makes a point of telling his students to teach the technique with your fall, rather than your mouth, when the partner is newer.

My point was that reality has very little to do with "reality" as in what would work in the street. I am large enough to pretty much have my way, if that were my wont. I would not get much of the reality of Aikido if I did.

I too have little use for contrived Aikido. Each encounter should be as completely alive and real as two people (at their respective levels) can make it.

Okay?
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Old 09-15-2000, 09:29 AM   #27
Cas Long
Location: England
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 40
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Wink Thanks, Mikey.....

Mikey,

Thanks for your reply.

I do not use "real"/"reality" as in street combat, rather as in a "real" fall, as opposed to a contrived one.I hate to see Ukes who "throw" themselves-Nage might as well stay home & save his/her energy.

If the Uke always rolls throughout his/her Aikido career, the Nage will never feel what it is like to feel for example, 250 pounds of connection on one arm, in say, a technique from Morote Dori: this is good, honest practice, & makes the Nage evaluate the effectiveness & stability of the technique; whether vital principles have been adhered to, or whether brute strength was the key. Good "true" (in terms of honest) ukemi benefits both Nage & Uke; ballet benefits neither (& I know that we are both in total agreement that practice should not be like this).

I would love to have my way with you (on the mat!), & am confident that I would have no problem with your build, either as Nage or Uke. (I am being light-hearted, before you go for me!)

Ukemi is an art in itself, & for me, has been the key in understanding correct execution of technique, as well as receiving technique safely.

Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
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Old 09-15-2000, 09:30 AM   #28
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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Re: Good Debate.....

Quote:
Cas Long wrote:
Mikey,

You have completely mis-understood my post. My main point is that sometimes, Uke has no 'choice' in how to fall- maybe I refer to advanced Aikido too much, especially when both Nage & Uke are of equal ability & have solid repetoires.
The word sometimes is what I was looking for. I've run into enough people that train so much the same way, over and over, that they can't break their patterns and controlling uke sounded like maybe.... but it appears not to have been.

Quote:
I agree with some of your points, this is why sometimes it can be "truer" to train with Aikidoka outside your own Dojo, if this is OK with your Sensei- then your Aikido will be more reactive rather than it becoming "predictable",
however, I would say, not always to "go with the flow" with your colleagues on the mat, as being on auto-pilot, (knowing someone's technque well) can end up in injury if they pull something new/unexpected! & this highlights my main point.....
Maybe I just needed to hear your points differently but this works fine for me. In fact, this fear led to something which led to this post.

Quote:
Thanks to both of you for your thoughts-I just have a thing about totally contrived Aikido, that's all!
As do I and it's why we got started with this. Technique-wise, the dojo I'm spending most of my time at these days is one of the most non-contrived out there (it's why I'm there), so I found it funny when uke's started looking contrived (my definition of contrived is pretty damn broad though). Balance is a good thing.

Appreciate the discussion.
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Old 09-15-2000, 09:52 AM   #29
Mike Collins
Location: San Jose
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 189
United_States
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Talking

Cas,

I am sure you would have no trouble with my build as long as you are nage, because let's face it you're just a girl, and I'd fall down for you pretty easily. And as uke, no problem there either, cause I'd be throwing so gently, you'd never get hurt anyway.

(Okay that was just a little humor, (yeah I know, very little)intended to get a little reaction, I can't help myself).
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Old 09-15-2000, 09:59 AM   #30
Cas Long
Location: England
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 40
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Mikey.......



Go to your room at once!

(Several people died the last time a subject like this was mentioned...!)

Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
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Old 09-15-2000, 10:14 AM   #31
Mike Collins
Location: San Jose
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 189
United_States
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Talking

Cas,

You're so pretty when you're angry.

Be careful, not good martial principle to show an opening. Never let 'em know they're getting to you.
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Old 09-15-2000, 11:54 AM   #32
Cas Long
Location: England
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 40
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Wink Mikey....

On the contrary, I am just using Budo's principle of Shikake.....!


Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
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Old 09-15-2000, 02:08 PM   #33
Nick
Dojo: Aikido of Greater Atlanta
Location: Atlanta, GA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 561
United_States
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Re: Mikey.......

Quote:
Cas Long wrote:


Go to your room at once!

(Several people died the last time a subject like this was mentioned...!)
Ouch, I've heard that one one too many times .

-Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 09-30-2000, 12:31 AM   #34
Kestrel
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: College Park, Maryland
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 15
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Talking Thank you!

I just realized something.

With all the discussion of uke and taking ukemi and falls and such...I just realized why what happened in class yesterday felt so *right*. It had seemed rather odd up till now because I was uke rather than tori. (Is that right? People seem to use nage interchangeably with tori and also as a reference to the throw or pin.)
I will have to keep this in mind for tomorrow's class and remember to try and take ukemi as close to the way I am supposed to as possible.

Tim

"Are you *sure* this is safe?"
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