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Old 08-24-2002, 02:25 PM   #1
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Hi Don - I know and understand what you are trying to say and between you and me would leave it alone especially since Paul pipped in with How can technique be "beautiful" if it cannot work against active resistance?. (1)

Anyhow, I wonder how many Tomiki shiai and at what level you have seen? (2)

BUT: when you see the perfect execution of technique in the most trying of circumstance it is absolutely gorgeous. Far more attractive than some over complicated waltze (3)
1) I think Paul was reiterating the dilemma, his question succinct.

2) Only one. A commercial thing--Aiki News', if memory serves (the local library ordered it for me). The woman who started Koryu publications, Diane Baurle (sp?) now Diane Skoss was in it, I think. There was IRIMI that was breathtaking, I admit, so I see your (3). A lot of the rest was unproductive thrashing.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 08-24-2002, 02:28 PM   #2
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
John Kuo (jk) wrote:
Sorry Don, I always preferred watching the Kyokushin guys kick at each other's thighs over JKA kumite; it seemed more...realistic.
No apologies necessary. I have more than a second chin to show for my years and feel I've matured here. I watch the JKA stuff today and I find it comical. Wouldn't want to take a side thrust to the sternum from Kagawa, mind you, but Kyokushin, kickboxing, and the UFC have been MA's paradigm shifts, haven't they?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 08-25-2002, 03:02 AM   #3
PeterR
 
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I saw that video and with the exception of some black and white footage the shiai footage was uninspiring. Apparently there was some real good stuff done at that particular competition but I guess the camera wasn't on.

You mean that women doing the Koryu Goshin no Kata was Diane Skoss? I've said publically that it was the worst demo of the kata I had ever seen and wondered why it was included. Well at least her service via Koryu books is without parallel. There is some really good free-style embu on that tape.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-25-2002, 09:26 AM   #4
Chuck Clark
 
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
You mean that women doing the Koryu Goshin no Kata was Diane Skoss? I've said publically that it was the worst demo of the kata I had ever seen and wondered why it was included. Well at least her service via Koryu books is without parallel.
Peter,

Ouch!!!

I'm sure that there are many bits of our practice that ALL of us would not like displayed to the world for scrutiny and judgement. What good did this criticism accomplish?

Diane is a very good friend of mine and sempai in SMR. I am her sempai in aikido and I assure you that bit in the video is not representative of her skill level.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-25-2002, 06:23 PM   #5
PeterR
 
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Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
Peter,

Ouch!!!

I'm sure that there are many bits of our practice that ALL of us would not like displayed to the world for scrutiny and judgement. What good did this criticism accomplish?
I regretted that after I sent it but still she should not have allowed that to be displyed. I can't judge her Aikido or any of her other budo on that (too many variables - a camera light doesn't help) but I tell you - if I had done that Nariyama would have had me for breakfast. I watched that video with non-Tomiki people and my face literally was red with embarresment. Like it or not if you are going to put yourself up as representative of a system (which is exactly what that tape is - altough not produced by the JAA) then you should be very aware of what the end product looks like.

I was responding to someone else's mention of the sequence and her name. I had heard good things about Diane Skoss and was really taken by surprise. As I said her books are wonderful and I will take your word that her Budo is also.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-25-2002, 11:09 PM   #6
Chuck Clark
 
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Hi Peter,

I suspect that Diane had no input about what was put on that video. I may be mistaken but I don't think she did the editing, etc.

I see stuff on videos often that I think is not very good. I may say something about it privately, but I think making negative comments about someone else on a worldwide forum is not a good idea.

Rethinking that...

I have no problem with negative comments about someone that has been proven to be a fraud or charlatan and is representing themselves dishonestly.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 08-25-2002, 11:47 PM   #7
PeterR
 
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I agree and I don't know how I got there and am sorry about that.

That tape is a mixed blessing. It has increased the exposure of the Aikido world to the Tomiki style yet it has some major shortcomings. Frankly it gets my goat (and Don wasn't the first one to do it) when someone makes sweeping generalizations about a style ("Aikido ugly") after seeing one video produced by an outside organization. There is some good stuff in there but you have to know what, and what not, to look for.
Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
I see stuff on videos often that I think is not very good. I may say something about it privately, but I think making negative comments about someone else on a worldwide forum is not a good idea.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-26-2002, 08:54 AM   #8
opherdonchin
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Just a quick question for Chuck Clark: are you saying there is no place for an honest critique of a video that is distributed nationally or internationally and claims to represent AiKiDo or a particular style? I guess I'd think that, if the criticism was couched with enough respect, it might be an important view to share.

I haven't seen the video, don't know Diane Skoss, and thus can have no opinion about the specific issue at hand.

However, it is, to me, an issue similar to the funny respect AiKiDoka usually give (or, I guess, are supposed to give) to other dojos in their area. It's somehow part of my idea of ettiquette that I never say anything bad about another dojo, but it's an idea of ettiquette that I'm sometimes uncomfortable with.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-26-2002, 08:33 PM   #9
MaylandL
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
...I guess I'd think that, if the criticism was couched with enough respect, it might be an important view to share.

...
Hello Mr Dochin

I agree that criticism needs to be respectful (I am in no way implying that Mr Rehse's comments were in any way disrespectful).

I have not seen the video that Mr Rehse refers to so I am not commenting on that. Rather I'd like to make the point about constructive criticism in a public forum.

The point that I would like to make is fair and balanced criticism. IMHO, criticism in any publication (irrespective of media) needs to take account of the authors accomplishments as a whole, else it may be interpreted by some (especially in a public forum like this) that what is presented is the sum total of their knowledge and expertise. This is more likely to occur when the reader has little or no experience with what the author's knowledge and expertise.

This may be what Mr Clark is highlighting (Please accept my apologies Mr Clark if I have misinterpreted or read more into it that was intended).

'nuff said...happy training all

Mayland
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Old 08-27-2002, 12:41 AM   #10
Chuck Clark
 
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I have absolutely no problem with quality criticism. There is a right way and a wrong way to make that critique. Positive criticism goes a long way. I believe if you are going to make criticisms about others work you also should take the responsibility to look far enough to see what they do that is worth positive remarks also. Of course, there may be none. If so, there are ways to deal with such things in a "classy" way.

You have to be careful about what you put into these world-wide forums. I think you should never say anything about someone on such a forum that you would not feel right about saying to their face.

If there is doubt about whether something is appropriate, I think silence is the best choice. Don't forget...when we can't see each other the only thing we can base our ideas on about each other is through the words and the manner in which they are written. Its always a good idea to read and then reread your messages that may have negative effect before you hit the submit button.

Of course, like everyone else on the internet, with the value of my opinions and about $3.75 you can get a fairly good cup of coffee these days.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-27-2002, 01:18 AM   #11
opherdonchin
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I'd be interested in hearing more about 'classy' ways of critiquing when you feel you don't have anything positive to say.

Also, I feel like this ties in pretty strongly to the whole deference thing we learn in AiKiDo (supposedly borrowed from Japanese culture, but what do I know). I think it's not obvious that criticism of a high ranking or highly accomplished sensei is appropriate. I mean your points are well taken, and they seem right to me, but I guess I'm still wondering who this interacts with more formal aspects of AiKi ettiquette.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-27-2002, 01:47 AM   #12
PeterR
 
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Boys - I screwed up ok. My only defense is that I was totally taken by surprise when informed who performed the demo. The worst part is, other than her presence being mentioned, the kata demo wasn't even germain to the discussion. That was about the randori.

To beg a bit of fairness I don't think I ever called into question her Budo credentials, was very clear about that in subsequent posts, and did (in both the original and subsequent posts) try to balance it out with a positive statement.

That said Opher raises a valid point. How do you critisize with tact? There are times when it is necessary (I don't think this time it was) and no one who puts themselves in front of others should be immune from it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-27-2002, 02:19 AM   #13
DaveO
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
That said Opher raises a valid point. How do you critisize with tact? There are times when it is necessary (I don't think this time it was) and no one who puts themselves in front of others should be immune from it.
I'd say it's all in the wording. If you see something that's done poorly, instead of saying "that sucked!" (not that anyone did, I'm being hypothetical), I would say something along the lines of "To be honest, I've seen better..." etc.

Lol - yeah, like I'M the most tactfull person here!

Dave

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Old 08-27-2002, 02:52 AM   #14
MaylandL
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Hello Mr Rehse
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
...To beg a bit of fairness I don't think I ever called into question her Budo credentials, was very clear about that in subsequent posts, and did (in both the original and subsequent posts) try to balance it out with a positive statement.

...
Yes I would agree having reviewed the previous posts. I would commend you on your subsequent posts to further clarify your statement and their acknowledgement of differing opinions in a respectful and clear headed way. I am glad that the principles of this forum are being adhered to. Nuff said on this point.
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
...How do you critisize with tact? There are times when it is necessary (I don't think this time it was) and no one who puts themselves in front of others should be immune from it.
I think this is a tough one especially in an international forum when idioms and implicit meanings can differ. IMHO when making any form of criticism we tend to compare and contrast against some performance standard which we perceive to be desirable. Sometimes we make that standard explicit and others it is implicit. Of course others may use a different standard.

Making fair and tactful criticism I think involves making our assumptions and thoughts about these performance standards explicit and their applicability in the particular circumstance. Both positive and negative comments are made in relation to the specific activity and not about the person.

Also there will be those that disagree and an acknowledgement of this differing viewpoints I think may need to considered.

I would just mention that the reviewer may also need to consider the limitations of their comments and to avoid generalisations or over simplifications.

I am sure there are more things to consider, but I'll end this here now before it gets bigger than Ben Hur.

I would be interested to hear other views and thoughts. All the best for training

Mayland
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Old 08-29-2002, 06:32 PM   #15
Don_Modesto
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Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Frankly it gets my goat (and Don wasn't the first one to do it) when someone makes sweeping generalizations about a style ("Aikido ugly") after seeing one video produced by an outside organization.
This thread was transfered from another, I think, and I don't remember where it started. I don't recall my first comments; they weren't meant to offend, sorry if they did.

I take your point to heart, Peter, to the effect that the participants were young. I went back and watched it again after seeing your reaction. I think the SHIAI stuck with me for its novelty and, as I stated I found with karate tournaments, too, the application is ugly. I didn't mean it as a sweeping generalization. Indeed, I think I suggested that more of the training I've taken part in could use a similar discipline; if not competition precisely, something to help us stay honest.

I forget the technical names of the different "keiko" in Tomiki style, but one of them, which I'd completely forgotten about since my only other viewing of the video some months ago, impressed greatly. Again, there were two young stalwarts, this time demonstrating before a group rather than competing. Pranin narrating says that the idea is to try to throw the other guy, but not to resist when UKE or NAGE has a good setup for a technique. That struck me as a very beautiful display of training possibilities. Nariyama's demo also gave one pause for it's precision and power.

CU.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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