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Old 08-28-2002, 01:29 PM   #26
Cyrijl
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sorry if i was not clear...i a gree totally with keith...if you can get away safe without killing (or maiming) that's great, but that just isn't always the situation...my reference to o sensei was regarding his warrior days...reading saotome's "aikido and the harmony of nature" it was clear to me that o sensei was a great warrior amd while he may have changed his mind later on in life. for most of his life he was still a warrior and led a budo lifestyle.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 08-28-2002, 01:38 PM   #27
isshinryu88
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When someone attacks you, they have already made a decision about how much they value your life. Out of an infinite number of possible actions this person could take, they chose violence. This one incident is likely representative of their past and of their future. As someone capable of dealing with such an individual, I have a duty to do so.

I don't speak Japanese. I can only assume that all of the translations of O'Sensei's philophy and beliefs are correct. I often wonder though how much the translators bias affects the end result. One of the more enlightening discussions I've had involved Gichin Funakoshi's (Founder of Shotokan Karate)maxim that there is no first attack in Karate. This has been taken to mean everything from the first move of any kata must be a defensive one to any self-defense situation must begin with a block or an evasion or other non-offensive technique. A number of indviduals I have corresponded with have indicated that the translation is mostly correct, but fails to take into account the context of the original Japanese. The saying itself refers in part to the game of Go. In Go, (in my very limited knowledge), there is a type of move that forces your opponent to make a specific action. I suppose it's something like chess where if you place you opponent in check,the only thing they can do is to get their king out of check. They can't do anything else, even if a move presented itself that would place their opponent in checkmate.

Taking the context of the saying into account, imo, radically changes the philosophy. The saying comes to mean that a karate person won't take any actions that place someone else in a position where their only choice is to respond in a certain way. While this does have the effect of "No first attack" in the sense that the karate person shouldn't wander into a bar and smack someone, it leaves a much wider range of responses open. (By the way, if these ramblings make sense to anyone and you can point me in the right direction for similar discussions regarding Aikido philosophy, please let me know.)

My specific answer would be that if the attack came in such a fashion that it flowed into the lethal response, that is what I would do. The attacker has already instigated a lethal level of attack. If I screw up my initial chance, not only do I possibly die, others are in danger as well. If other circumstances exist, such as my family is nearby or there are more than one attacker, I would definitely use lethal force rather than run the risk of failing.`

Last edited by isshinryu88 : 08-28-2002 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 08-28-2002, 01:48 PM   #28
Alfonso
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One of my Sempai is an old Karate man. He once explained this flowing into the lethal response as to why he's training in Aikido. He knows he can kill unconsciously and has been training to rewire his lethal responses.

In the crunch you respond automatically ; if you have trained lethally that's what will come out. I believe the practice of Aikido waza will lead you to hardwire other responses which will end up with no one dead.

In the crunch you don't have time to think and decide.
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Old 08-28-2002, 02:27 PM   #29
Cyrijl
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it is easy not to kill if you do not know how...again, that is not what the hypothetical situation asks...the question is "Do YOU take a knife in the leg, throat, arm,etc. and subdue your opponent...or do you kill/maim and end it there?"

me?....i'm walking home

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
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Old 08-28-2002, 05:42 PM   #30
Bruce Baker
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Reality ... been there

I am going to ask as nice as I can Ms Colleen Annes, please do not assume you know anything about Bruce Baker. If you need to attend a pressure point seminar to gain education, then do so. I am considering sending you the funds to do so, so that you may attain a broader view of what is happening in the real MA world.

That said ... yes I have attacked by people with knives. I wasn't doing anything other than walking down the street, or through the park, in the middle of the day, and some crazed idiot figures it is easier to stab than to work for a living. So I have been in this situation ... before I studied martial arts.

It can be both frightening, angering, and a place you don't want to be in.

Would I have killed my attacker if they were uncontolable and set on my death ... maybe. It depends on how serious I can injure them to prevent them from killing me.

Rule number one: protect your life.

All martail arts stress rule number one, but then we go into the consequensces of our actions in lesson number two ... don't we?

Hopefully ... our minds will be clear, our reflexes will be adequete, and we will not be too injured by attackers or kill them.

There is the possibility of killing people by accident everyday, but our peaceful lifestyles don't always make room for those who would kill us ... for fun. (yeah, there are people out there who would kill you for laughs, believe it.)

Hell, doctors kill patients by accident every day. How hard can it be to kill someone if you knew what you were doing?

I don't like to think like this, but I do understand the trap that happens when you get caught in the "death loop."

Try not to kill anybody. Don't think about trying to kill anybody. If you do happen to have to seriously injure someone to protect your life, hopefully you will have the skills NOT to kill anyone.

I think practicing Aikido helps.

Maybe even Ms. Collen Annes will attend a few classes to understand why all martial arts are based on human pressure points for their techniques. (Soon, we will be showing more of them in Aikido, too.)
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Old 08-28-2002, 05:52 PM   #31
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Not following your pressure point stuff Bruce....are you really implying that all martial arts are based on pressure points?? I hope not.

Ever try to subdue a real maniac on PCP? How about a drunk that is in a huge rage? I have as I am sure there are others out there that have....Brian...care to comment???

Pressure points don't even work well on me. One reason is that I have worked pressure point tech so much that I am somewhat conditioned to them, the other reason is that I am able to endure a fair amount of physical pain.

Pressure points don't work to well on these guys. Your better off controlling their balance and pinning or cuffing.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me if I am wrong.

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Old 08-28-2002, 07:22 PM   #32
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To kill someone is realatively easy. To live with it is much harder.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-29-2002, 05:56 AM   #33
ian
 
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I think if you are 'prepared' to kill someone then you have to train to kill someone (i.e. a neck break instead of irimi-nage). Although I know several potentially lethal strikes and techniques, and also mention these possibilities to other students, I do not train to carry out these techniques. Thus I doubt if I would ever kill someone without a real concious effort.

As mentioned, the level of force probably reflects the persons ability to control the situation. This is understandable, however I think fear is the big problem that makes us over-react or fail to help others e.g.
Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
Well, I'm not willing to risk my life in order to preserve the life of someone who is attacking me, that's insane! I also don't believe it would be unethtical to kill an attacker is such a situation either.
I see your point Kathryn, and who knows what one will really do in a situation. However, who are you to say your life is worth more than theirs? I think this is why we should really reflect on the fact that we will die one day; and in my belief there is no heaven, so our actions are more important than our lives. Aikido give us a way to live without fear, yet still to be able to protect our lives.

Ian
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Old 08-29-2002, 05:58 AM   #34
ian
 
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(saying this I think women often have a stronger survival instinct than men who, biologically speaking, are there to fight, strut around (thereby getting a mate), and die.)

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-29-2002, 06:11 AM   #35
Bruce Baker
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Mr. Leavitt.

I understand your conscious thinking about pain, and wondering about pressure points.

I did uke for many of the rougher techniques for my karate teachers because of my ability to endure pain, and recover ... so I know what you are thinking in this arena.

Simple put, do you react to wrist twists, arm bars, other manipulations, and feel some type of pain? Unless you have dead nerve endings, the answer is yes for living human beings.

You feel pain because of nerve endings, or pressure points.

Even if you were drugged up, your body would recieve these signals to the brain until either unconsciousness would occur, or serious injury. If you have never been knocked out, then I guess you don't know the involuntary feeling of body shutdown to protect the living organism. Signals sent through nerve endings signifying pain ... also called, pressure points.

Poke about your arm, gently, until you find the most pain with angle and direction, when you do. that is a pressure point. They abound in Aikido practice, otherwise many techniques would not work.

Have fun finding them, and practicing Aikido.
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Old 08-29-2002, 06:31 AM   #36
DaveO
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Bruce said:
Quote:
Even if you were drugged up, your body would recieve these signals to the brain until either unconsciousness would occur, or serious injury. If you have never been knocked out, then I guess you don't know the involuntary feeling of body shutdown to protect the living organism. Signals sent through nerve endings signifying pain ... also called, pressure points.
Bruce, I don't know much about the anatomy of the nervous system, but I do know that you may have made a mistake there. Drugs, whether natural or artificial, do indeed block, cancel or divert pain signals - how does anasthaetic work? I think you're arguing two points: pain and injury. The two don't necessarily correlate. By that I mean, nikkyo works on me (for instance), because to not submit would cause injury to the wrist - the intense pain advertises that. No direct pressure point - the temple, upper lip, jaw, any in the neck, shoulder, ribs, arms, etc. affect me because a) I can accept high levels of pain, and b), if I have an elevated level of adrenaline, I can voluntarily suppress - block completely - pain signals from a pain source. (This does not take any sort of mystical yoga training, or anything like that - just desire and a small amount understanding about what's happening to your body.) To put it bluntly; pressure points not associated with potential joint injury simply do not work on me, and I'm in no way rare in this.

And yes, I've dealt with this in real life.

Anyway, that's enough of pressure points. I'd like to respond to the original question, now that my protests have been logged.

Would I, if required, kill to protect my life? Yes - I know that because I've been faced with that situation. Would I, if possible, do everything in my power to avoid taking the final measure? Yes, for exactly the same reason.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 08-29-2002, 10:10 AM   #37
mike lee
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Confused the mystery of life

I've always chosen death -- maybe that's why I'm still alive.
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Old 08-29-2002, 05:23 PM   #38
guest1234
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I guess I would say if my Aikido skills were as good as, oh, say the skills/arsenal of the US fighting force and negotiating ability of the US State Dept, and my courage were as great as, oh, I don't know, perhaps, well, let's just say, heck, lets say that of the President of a really good and powerful nation, hey, how about ours? Then what was the question, OH yeah, well, would I try to subdue someone or try to kill them out of fear and a feeling of indequacy. Hmmmm. I still think I would go for courage and skill vs fear and inadequacy. Jeesh people.
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Old 08-29-2002, 09:24 PM   #39
virginia_kyu
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Colleen, I personally have no idea how I would react but I don't think trying to save your own life is acting out of "inadequacy."

I think it is matter of your own ethics how to act as well as your martial ability, If you really thought you would be able to disarm the attacker and disable him with minimal harm that would certainly be great.

Otherwise you would unfortunately have to consider ending it badly.

I am sure that if I ever had to kill someone I would be bothered by it for the rest of my life. I certainly dont take any of this lightly.

Unfortunately, in this scenerio I think I would be killed either way since I am not experienced in Aikido.


Last edited by virginia_kyu : 08-30-2002 at 06:48 AM.

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Old 08-30-2002, 08:55 AM   #40
Bruce Baker
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Life experiments with pain

There are ways to lesson of block pain, and on the surface it would seem to be a logical way to explain that pressure points do not work, but I have three experiences to prove it is not so.

When I was in the service, one guy took some unnamed drugs and went into violent convulsions. Afraid to treat him with any other drugs we tried to restrain him, after a half hour of exhausting restaint, we finally decided to knock him out. For the next hour, each of three restainers knocked him out with a well placed knockout punch .. hoping the drugs were working their way out of his system. Yes, you can knock someone out on drugs.

Two.

I experienced a very badly sprained wrist from work, so I went home and took some painkillers with codine. I got a call from work to see their health care doctor. Feeling no pain, I went for a check on my injury. The doctor flexed my wrist to see if there was any pain, and just as he finished, I fell over unconscious. There was no pain, but it was the first time I was fully unconscious, unable to hear or quickly awake from pain.

Three.

Clinical examination of how pain works.

I was watching a report on the learning channel about how pain reaches the brain. Test subject allowed themselves to be shocked by low voltage electricity, and monitored for pain. The electrodes that were attached to the body gave a three dimensional picture of the bodys responses and even showed brain activity responses. After being hypnotized to not respond to pain, the graphs and charts showed the exact same transmissions of signals when the test subjects experienced pain as to when they claimed to have no pain.

Yes, pain is recieved by the brain, and even though you don't think you are in pain, you are.

It is just a matter of excedeing the pain tolerance so the body shuts down.

If you have never seen someone knocked out by a single punch, then I guess you have the right to be skeptical.

If you have never seen someone thrown across the room and pinned like a rag doll with Aikido, then you too have the right to be skeptical.

But rather than flailing about in attempt to seriously injure someone to point of death or serious injury, wouldn't it be better to know other ways to avoid such things?

I guess the experiences of learning to keep others from harming you, or learning to hurt others so they don't hurt you or others, can be considered to be the budo of street fighting.
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Old 08-30-2002, 05:50 PM   #41
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Bruce,

No what you are trying to say...and yes there is some validity to it. Vasovagal reaction is the most common reason for unconsciousness (fainting) simply isn't enough blood going to the brain. A good pop to the carotid can cause it to spasm causing someone to go unconscious.

However, when you get neural blockers, andrenalin, and other stuff going, it may or may not work.

There are nerve centers and pressure points throughout the body, and yes, a strike to them can cause the body to shut down. I am familiar with most of them, and I can tell you that I have not met anyone yet that is even an expert that will rely on them 100%. it is simply not foolproof.

Balance and center is 100% foolproof. That has been demonstrated to me many, many times. I don't care who you are, if you take someone's balance, you take their balance period. don't need to rely on their body chemistry, pressure points, or other factors of internal wiring that may vary from person to person and circumstance to circumstance.

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Old 08-30-2002, 05:52 PM   #42
Kevin Leavitt
 
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correction first word of my above post should have been "KNOW" not "NO" (need to proof read!) Was having a temporary vasalvagal episode!

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Old 08-30-2002, 09:27 PM   #43
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Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
I see your point Kathryn, and who knows what one will really do in a situation. However, who are you to say your life is worth more than theirs?
Well, I didn't say that my life is worth more, but really that question should be applied to the attacker not to me as in this situation it is the attacker who has decided that my life is worth nothing, I just wouldn't agree.
Quote:
I think this is why we should really reflect on the fact that we will die one day; and in my belief there is no heaven, so our actions are more important than our lives. Aikido give us a way to live without fear, yet still to be able to protect our lives.

Ian
I believe our actions are important too, and I have a responsibility to my child,my husband, and the rest of my family,(not to mention the love between us all) so dying in order to not harm someone who is trying to kill me is unthinkable. Whether or not I am more important than my attacker is irrelevent, my family is.

Do you really think that if someone chooses to kill someone, the victim should be willing to give his life rather than fight back and risk the attacker's?

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 08-30-2002, 09:56 PM   #44
Kevin Leavitt
 
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I believe in the interconnectedness of all beings. In the great scheme of things your enemy is also your brother, and my life is no more or less important than his.

If he truly desires to kill you, then it is apparent that at least one life will be lost.

If you are in a position to defend yourself and you have searched your heart and found your intentions to be such that you are only defending yourself and must kill him in order to survive, then there is only one life lost and it is his. You are morally okay since he made the choice that one person would die.

The attacker has chosen to take a life, not you. Your actions are simply a tool that is used in response to the situation that he has created.

Because of the interconnectedness of life, I would feel sad at the loss of life. Sad for him and the unhappiness that brought him to attack me. Sad for his family that will miss him, and sad for his spirit.

I train to refine my skills in Aikido so that hopefully one day if faced with such as situation that I have the ability to choose to preserve life and not have to kill.

That is the only way we can be if we truly care to be good humans.

No one life is more important than another. It is wrong to kill, ever, unfortunately, "life" does not always care what we think or feel.

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Old 08-31-2002, 05:32 AM   #45
Bruce Baker
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Options not to kill.

Don't mistake my reference to pressure points as the magical art of touching.

Every technique in any martial art that creates pain, involuntary movement, or numbness of the result of activating a pressure point. Sometimes they are near blood vessels and sometimes they are not.

Aikido's best techniques use them. If you look, they are able to be used in other techniques that do not.

What many people do not see is that each technique of Aikido have variable choices to activate pressure points either in the grasp, rub, or strike as you perform the technique or variation ... thereby giving you the option to disable without killing.

Or at least increase the odds not killing your attacker. A more precise educated technique than the brawl method ... as if you were using a two by four to hit them with?

Think back to your first lessons, and how you have changed from the clumsy, fumbling beginner? Let us continue on that path, and let education temper our practice, and self defense where it really counts ... in a real life threatening situation.

At least we will have done our best should the worst of circumstances occur, and the specter of death come into your life. All of life ends in death, but then we do hope for recycling of our body and our spirit, don't we?
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Old 08-31-2002, 11:18 PM   #46
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Agree Bruce.

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Old 09-02-2002, 02:01 AM   #47
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
Well, an experienced aikidoka will not put himself in such a situation in the first place
Heh, good answer. Although sometimes you don't have a choice. I work as a doorman and have to consider the possibility of a knife attack at all times.

I separate weapons into 3 classes. Blunt, sharp and firearms. The two latter are a world apart from the first. Think about it. The blade is sharp and made to cut and stab. The firearm is made to make big holes in you. Killing weapons.

If someone pulls a blade on me, I have to assume this person is trying to kill me. At that moment, I will not pull any punches. If I can control, I control. If I must harm, I will harm. If I can use a weapon, I use a weapon.
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Old 09-02-2002, 08:56 AM   #48
Brian H
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Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
Well, I didn't say that my life is worth more, but really that question should be applied to the attacker not to me as in this situation it is the attacker who has decided that my life is worth nothing, I just wouldn't agree.

...

Do you really think that if someone chooses to kill someone, the victim should be willing to give his life rather than fight back and risk the attacker's?
Lets say you are like a sister. She has told me that she would rather be raped or die, then kill another person. (She doesn't get to babysit often).

I don't agree and as a policeman, I can carry a gun almost anyplace. It is a very good bet that in the described scenario, I would be armed.

My first point: Even if you are armed (my home state of Virginia issues handgun carry permits to any law-abiding person over 21 - $50 for 5 years) The attack may be so sudden that your only option is to move to avoid injury (irimi!). I like Aikido because of the premise that you must move to a safe place and unbalance uke. In that safe place you have the freedom to do a technique or use atemi (including, if necessary, a knife or a gun) Ian's story is a good example of continuously moving to a safe place. (I would say that the Badguy found out he had brown pants before Ian found his safe place though)

My second point is: Lets say you take the "moral high ground" and give yourself to your attacker rather than use "lethal force" (I say that because I don't presume that I have a "touch of death", having seen people not be killed by multiple gunshot wounds and even a guy crawl out from under a bus and walk away.)

If you fail to stop the attacker, are you partially responsible for the harm suffered by the attackers next victim?

The passengers of Flight 93 made a choice to take on their hijackers. Had they been successful, they might have gotten that plane down safely (there was at least one pilot among the passengers). However, even in failing to save their own lives, they saved the lives of those people at the hijackers target. For that they will always be heroes.

Is my wallet worth a life? NO, but if you are threatening my life, fear any opening you give me.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
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Old 09-02-2002, 09:03 AM   #49
Brian H
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Third point: I choose life every morning when I get out of bed. And again each day when I am the father of my two children. Everyday I effect the lives of people around me in good and bad ways.

I also choose death when I get out of bed, because I may die that day. When I sit down to eat, cross the street or go to work. Nobody lives forever.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
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Old 09-03-2002, 04:03 AM   #50
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Talking

Refering to the title

Errrmmm Cake please...

and if your out of cake then i'll have the salad....
Izzard fans beware...

As for the attacker i'd probebly gokyo him remove his elbow from his socket and then beat the living SH*TE out of him for attacking me in the first place (i'm from the largest council estate in europe dont make me angry you wouldnt like me when i'm angry)

that or if absolutly necessary i'd stick him with it in the gut, twist and remove. he's got between 5 and 30 mins depending on shock, drug abuse etc...

in wythenshawe tho you dont mess about if you think someone has a knife you run like your a$$ is on fire until your in safe surroundings and there's ppl nearby you know or just plain crowds help the main princible, stay alive.


pete

Last edited by Genex : 09-03-2002 at 04:16 AM.

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