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Old 08-28-2002, 10:10 PM   #1
PeterR
 
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Philosophy Overkill

Dear all - is it just me or is there an upsurge in vain glorious attempts to pin personal philosophies on Aikido.

Some of the discussions are interesting but I really wonder how many really have anything to do with Aikido.

I never hear this stuff in the dojo, and nowhere near the volume during beer waza.

Simple question but do your sensei sit you down and lecture on this stuff or is it made up as you go along.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-29-2002, 12:21 AM   #2
chadsieger
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Talking

At my dojo, practice time is practice time. Those interested in lingering are sure to hear a lesson, or more once you learn to listen for them.

I personally feel that the pilosophy aspect not only helps the physical aspect develop, but it seems much more than that. I feel that they should be taken together in healthy doses to create something that is greater than the sum of its parts. Ueshiba for one.

Thankfully, they are both enjoyable!

Sieger

Heaven is right where you are standing, and that is exactly the place to train-
M. Ueshiba
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Old 08-29-2002, 03:31 AM   #3
jk
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Most of us should just shut up and train...and I think I'm going follow that advice now; been cruising by these forums too often.

Regards,
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Old 08-29-2002, 03:42 AM   #4
mike lee
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thought police?

Anyone has the right to engage in a thread on anything. If anyone doesn't want to engage in a particular thread, they also have that right. But creating a thread to say that one doesn't want to engage in another thread seems ludicrous -- or maybe it's just another form of vanity.

Last edited by mike lee : 08-29-2002 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 08-29-2002, 04:05 AM   #5
PeterR
 
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Re: thought police?

Just a comment Mike - did I or anyone say we didn't want to participate in any threads.

I am just wondering about the source of all these "Aiki truths".
Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Anyone has the right to engage in a thread on anything. If anyone doesn't want to engage in a particular thread, they also have that right. But creating a thread to say that one doesn't want to engage in another thread seems ludicrous -- or maybe it's just another form of vanity.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-29-2002, 04:12 AM   #6
mike lee
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learning process

Quote:
I am just wondering about the source of all these "Aiki truths".
Why not just ask them?
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Old 08-29-2002, 05:34 AM   #7
ian
 
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I would say everyone's philosophy is very individual, unless they are indoctrinated. In my mind the 'philosophy' of aikido is not one single set of concepts, and it can easily be interpreted differently. Also there are philosophies e.g. buddhism, which are not directly related to aikido philosphy but are linked with Japanese thought and martial arts. This is by far a better place to discuss philosophical matters than down the pub or in the dojo!

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-29-2002, 05:57 AM   #8
Chris Li
 
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Re: learning process

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Why not just ask them?
He did - in the post that started this thread .

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-29-2002, 06:58 AM   #9
Bruce Baker
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Philosophical focus in Aikido

I guess the simplicity of realizing we all meet at different crossroads during different times of our lives, learn from different experiences, and come to different conclusions based on those experiences is a moot point in the light of the question.

I agree that many of the philosophies are either being formed or learned, and in this learning stage they are somewhat off track, but of course they are correct for the experiences and lifestyles of each person.

I know not all of you have had the luxury of being attacked, criticized to the point of being ostrichsized, or had a long period of time to reflect upon finding the man made doctrines, that is the many simularitys of O'Sensei/ Jesus/ Allah/ and other sages pointing the way to learning, that when compared in the light of what humanity wants compared to our deeds of history show the truth of who and what we could be or what the human race is.

I guess we expect the doctors of theology, and professors of universitys to find these tedious answers, report to us their findings within a scientific method that still fits within the "leap of faith" concept of most religions.

Yes, our Aikido conversations do wander much further in the Aikiweb than they do when we are face to face in social situations. Could it be because when we are facing the words we contrive on our screens that we are actually thinking with more of our brains formulative cognition than when we are confronted by multiple stimuli of social interaction? I would hope so.

Sometimes, not often, I do have a chance to sit with people who have twenty or more years in Aikido and other martial arts to hash about some of the stories, ideas, or intended/ unintended direction of Aikido's Philosophys.

I did have a small chance when many of the teachers in my tri state area attended John Stevens sensei seminar in July. To my surprise, some of them had read some of my outlandish posts in agreement, but they laughed at how boldly I had honestly posted some of the philosophys as they knew the general concensus disagreed with spiritual aspects, pressure points, and delving into the more advanced training of mind over body.

Yeah, we can train ... train ... train, but in what regard is this training beneficial if it is merely the hand to eye coordination of other martial arts, or the act of agression to quell agression? There has to be some kind of underlying philosophy to guide us in a moral character beyond the acts of violence.

Even a soldier should have a conscious with adequete information to accomplish his/her duties, not be the robotic instrument of some officers petty emotional instruction? ( I was in the military, and I did embarass many an officer who gave robotic commands without dispensing the proper knowledge to complete tasks or purpose of tasks. I have a couple of captains masts to prove it.)

Philosophy gone bad?

Well then, let's just dispense a little more knowledge, some instuctional directions to acquire knowledge, and kick it about a bit more until we are all clear on where we are going with Aikido, or at least some of the ways to get there.
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Old 08-29-2002, 08:08 AM   #10
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I would agree that we need to balance our philosophizing with our sweat. We talk very little at our Dojo, that time is to train the body. Sort of, if you teach the body the mind will follow. Some of us intellectual types also like to train the mind so the body can follow. IMHO, each has its place.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-29-2002, 08:23 AM   #11
BC
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Re: Philosophy Overkill

Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Dear all - is it just me or is there an upsurge in vain glorious attempts to pin personal philosophies on Aikido.
It's not you, I feel the same way. It's one reason that I don't post that much anymore. I simply don't have the interest in participating in philosophical discussions about a very physical martial art. We never have these kinds of discussions in our dojo or during beeru waza - thankfully.

If some people want to discuss this kind of stuff on this forum, that's fine. I just don't feel the need or desire to participate, and just ignore them. No biggie. Whatever flips your cookie!

Robert Cronin
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Old 08-29-2002, 09:03 AM   #12
Paul Clark
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"ostrichsized"???


Last edited by Paul Clark : 08-29-2002 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 08-29-2002, 10:12 AM   #13
tedehara
 
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Dear all - is it just me or is there an upsurge in vain glorious attempts to pin personal philosophies on Aikido.

Some of the discussions are interesting but I really wonder how many really have anything to do with Aikido...
Personally, I see this as an attempt by people to come to intellectual terms with their practice of aikido. Here, they have a chance to express their views. Something they may not feel they have among their instructors and dojo mates.
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
...I never hear this stuff in the dojo, and nowhere near the volume during beer waza...
Even in the largest seminars, you would't have a chance to listen to the opinion of several thousand aikidoists. On this site, you can read that much and more. People who feel they have something to express probably gravitate towards this site because of its format.
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Simple question but do your sensei sit you down and lecture on this stuff or is it made up as you go along.
In my case, some of this might be something my sensei said, but most of my views are formed by Ki Society literature. People like Koichi Tohei and William Reed have written extensively on both aikido and the Ki Society approach to it.

However I also have a collection of works by Aikikai instructors and other aikidoists. In addition, I have read other works outside of aikido that could relate. Other martial arts, Taoist/Zen philosophy, Yoga/Hindu philosophy and Western religion/philosophy, are just some of the areas that can be tapped for inspiration and understanding.

I am probably an extreme case, but I was never interested in aikido just as a martial art. I was always curious about its philosophy. This is not to say I ignore training, but I try to add to it by coming to an understanding of what I'm doing.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 08-29-2002, 10:30 AM   #14
mike lee
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I can dig where you're coming from Ted -- except when one of those macho emotions invade my psyche! (Usually happens after I watch a John Wayne flick.)
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Old 08-29-2002, 11:32 AM   #15
deepsoup
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Quote:
Paul Clark wrote:
"ostrichsized"???
I think thats where they stick your head in the sand before they ignore you.

Sean

x
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Old 08-29-2002, 02:10 PM   #16
jimvance
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Keep beating, the horse ain't dead yet....

I think Ted did a great job of explaining the rationale. My question is "what philosopy are we overkilling?" I am glad that there is now a Aikigallery section, where we can see pictures of people, and that there is a humor section, where we can laugh about budo jokes, and that there is now a Voices of Experience section so old timers can talk amongst peers without us whippersnappers muddying up the waters. Online forums are really a new thing, and will continue to develop along with technology and human interest.

It's nice to expound on our own personal perspectives, that is the kind of person you find involved in Aikido. If you would like to hear more real life anecdotes, then don't complain, lead the way. The flavor of these forums is structured under a more "philosophical bent". Perhaps we need a more "anecdotal arena" to talk about what we are doing and why we find it significant to Aikido and why we are sharing it. Maybe we are still unsure of interacting in a more social function because we are still wary of the medium, as Bruce said. Typing reminds me of books, and I have time to be an author here, not just another guy with a beer in hand discussing the good throw of the night.

In this environment, I don't really care if the people writing have a day of experience or a lifetime. This is not a dojo, and we all have things to gain from each other. The question of whether people should spend more time in the dojo or on the Aikiweb is one they should be able to answer for themselves. I feel that saying "I am no longer participating on the Aikiweb so I can spend more time in the dojo" is an attempt at gaining moral superiority. Why not just say you no longer want to participate PERIOD. Nobody would be on this forum without some love or interest in Aikido, but this forum is not an Aikido dojo, and though there are experienced people on the forums, they don't take the place of my teacher. And that gives me the ability to consider the source and either let it in or tune it out. My personal opinion is that this is much better than subscribing to a magazine and buying a lot of books, but doesn't substitute for the real thing. It is an academic, not experiential.

Give it time to grow and change, or be more specific to the philosophical ramblings that offend. That way we can publicly ostrichsize the offenders.

Jim Vance
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Old 08-29-2002, 03:41 PM   #17
mj
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Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
I can dig where you're coming from Ted -- except when one of those macho emotions invade my psyche! (Usually happens after I watch a John Wayne flick.)
The only thing I want to hurt after a John Wayne movie is John Wayne.

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Old 08-29-2002, 05:03 PM   #18
guest1234
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I personally think there are way more threads on why MA XYZ kicks Aikido's butt, or the other way around. I just don't bother reading most of them. If it doesn't interest you, or you disagree, just move on to something else. No need to even announce a part time or permanent departure. Just feel free to go. I think of this like a social gathering; I think folks can come and go from different threads, if it gets too heated a discussion, or it is bothering you, feel free to move to a different one, or just leave the party for awhile. Feel free to come back anytime.
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Old 08-29-2002, 08:35 PM   #19
jk
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Re: Keep beating, the horse ain't dead yet....

Quote:
Jim Vance (jimvance) wrote:
I feel that saying "I am no longer participating on the Aikiweb so I can spend more time in the dojo" is an attempt at gaining moral superiority. Why not just say you no longer want to participate PERIOD.
You're right Jim...especially when the choice is really between Aikiweb and twiddling my thumbs in the office. Thanks for keeping me honest.

Regards,
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Old 08-29-2002, 11:15 PM   #20
shihonage
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Old 08-30-2002, 08:28 AM   #21
Bruce Baker
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Ostrichsized .... (probably spelled wrong as it is not a commomly used word these days.)

How about shouted down by the unruly rabble, or chased out of barnyard by a gaggle of geese, or ignored by the villagers as the crackpot inventor?

Ostrich, that big African bird that does stick its head in the sand, but also can group and expell outsiders with great fighting prowess.

In social terms, it is the gaggle of women socially ignoring someone, or the social group of men denouncing or not letting someone into their group ... as I understand the term.

Should I also explain the old lady line of inside information for small towns, or have most of you experienced this firsthand?

If you didn't giggle or laugh at some of this, you need to be thrown until you get your sense of humor back.
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Old 08-30-2002, 09:01 AM   #22
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
Ostrichsized .... (probably spelled wrong as it is not a commomly used word these days.)
Probably misspelled simply because you misspelled it.

--------------

Main Entry: os·tra·cize

Pronunciation: -"sIz

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): -cized; -ciz·ing

Etymology: Greek ostrakizein to banish by voting with potsherds, from ostrakon shell, potsherd -- more at OYSTER

Date: 1649

1 : to exile by ostracism

2 : to exclude from a group by common consent

----------------

Greg Jennings
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Old 08-30-2002, 01:02 PM   #23
jimvance
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Neologists Unite!

Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
Ostrichsized .... (probably spelled wrong as it is not a commomly used word these days.)
Aside from the interesting etymological lesson given to us by Greg (thank you Greg), I think I like your new word better Bruce. It is a much more amusing visual picture. Some cultures relish a mistake that makes the subject matter much more interesting, like the upside down stamp. Kudos.

Jim Vance
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Old 08-31-2002, 03:51 AM   #24
mike lee
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dead end

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would give up dojo-time to write comments on aikiweb. (Such suggestions are the old holier-than-thou ploy.)

The "I'm going to take my ball and go home ploy" is another rather lame and immature effort to manipulate content on certain threads that they don't agree with, but lack the intelligence to contribute in any meaningful way.

Ultimately, these control freaks will be frustrated because open-minded participants will sooner or later refuse to subscribe to such a myopic approach.
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Old 09-02-2002, 09:13 AM   #25
Bruce Baker
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I should hope that the time spent on the Aikiweb is the time you have set aside to relax, think, read, ponder, and give you time to recover from the necessity of work.

I am thoroughly convinced that the adage of Train-train-train is both inadequete and imbalanced. Sooner or later, you reach a saturation point, and when that happens, you must rebalance the physical practice with some mental gymnastics.

Maybe we do overphilosophize in an attempt to rebalance the overkill of physical practice, and we should step back to reevaluate the balance of our lives.

In any case, I would hope that we find our balance with greater skilled fighters who would challenge us, but are either bluffed, bamboozeled, or overcome with words rather than physical skills of martial arts.

Besides, if we can't wander about and express some questions to philosophy here, then where?

So long as we all maintain our sense of humor, and treat each other with respect, why the hell not here?

And thank's Jun, for having a place for us to hash out our thoughts.
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