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Old 10-22-2015, 08:50 AM   #26
PeterR
 
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Re: Ushiro

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
at least fo me, before everybody attacks me on that one too ;-(
Nahhh - just trying to get behind you.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-22-2015, 10:38 AM   #27
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Re: Ushiro

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
As I see it, multiple attackers (or at least the possibility thereof) are one of aikido's fundamental assumptions. As such, one would want to avoid going to the ground at all costs, and the likelihood of at least one attacker being able to get behind you is quite high.

As for the "why train to allow uke to run behind" question, I think that's a (valid) criticism of specific ushiro training methods, not of ushiro technique generally. And so the only reasonable answer is "so don't train that way." There are plenty of much more plausible ways to create a ushiro attack scenario.

Katherine
I tend to think the way we do things in Daito ryu is better, particularly for the way we practice randori in Aikido (which we don't do in Daito ryu).

But last time I checked the ASU manual in Shobukan's office it had the typical Aikikai "let uke grab your wrist and run around behind you rather than executing a kosadori technique" type ushiro techniques listed as testing requirements for third kyu.

So I mean, these things are part of some of our kihon waza.
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Old 10-22-2015, 11:19 AM   #28
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Re: Ushiro

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But last time I checked the ASU manual in Shobukan's office it had the typical Aikikai "let uke grab your wrist and run around behind you rather than executing a kosadori technique" type ushiro techniques listed as testing requirements for third kyu.
I don't remember the last time I looked at the ASU manual, so I'm not going to comment on it.

But this would not be an accurate description of the ushiro attack in ASU dojos where I've trained. If you *can* do a kosadori response without allowing uke to get behind you, then yes, you absolutely should.

Katherine
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:09 PM   #29
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Re: Ushiro

i have done the run around things before and always thought it was kinda silly.

take kosadori iriminage for example, uke grabs you, you take uke balance, open the space and enter right behind uke. so for ushiro, instead of uke grabs you, you (as uke) grab nage and execute kosadori iriminage on nage, which put you behind nage. so now, nage has to deal with the ushiro situation.

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Old 10-22-2015, 12:13 PM   #30
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Re: Ushiro

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I don't remember the last time I looked at the ASU manual, so I'm not going to comment on it.

But this would not be an accurate description of the ushiro attack in ASU dojos where I've trained. If you *can* do a kosadori response without allowing uke to get behind you, then yes, you absolutely should.

Katherine
The thought of George sensei grabbing your hand and "running around behind you" just made me snort at my desk. Out loud.

I don't think on paper anyone in aikido would claim to promote an ineffective attack. However, in practice I understand that our attacks may have strayed from "effective," and this is not unique to ushiro attacks. Nor is excusing ineffective attacks for some reason. I think it is surprising how quickly someone who knows how to attack can get to your back. I think part of why we start from the front is to give nage some time to process and deal with the attack. If the training wheels are off... uke should also...Making someone attack like a tool so you can trash 'em is not cool.

We know "attacks" are supposed to work. If your attack does not work, I am betting on user error. If your attack works and your partner just has a great response, everyone wins. Why else would my punch not land like Mike Tyson's? Both attacks are just punches... Also, I don't own a tiger. Yet.

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Old 10-22-2015, 12:19 PM   #31
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Re: Ushiro

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I don't remember the last time I looked at the ASU manual, so I'm not going to comment on it.

But this would not be an accurate description of the ushiro attack in ASU dojos where I've trained. If you *can* do a kosadori response without allowing uke to get behind you, then yes, you absolutely should.

Katherine
Well that must be fun when people go up for their sankyu tests!

You really HAVE to allow uke to grab you and run around behind you or you don't get a chance to practice the ushiro techniques we have in mainstream Aikido.
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:28 PM   #32
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Re: Ushiro

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The thought of George sensei grabbing your hand and "running around behind you" just made me snort at my desk. Out loud.
Heh. As it happens, we just worked on ushiro attacks last night. He doesn't run (anywhere) much, but he's really good at grabbing your hand and putting you in front of him. Presto, ushiro!

Quote:
I think it is surprising how quickly someone who knows how to attack can get to your back. I think part of why we start from the front is to give nage some time to process and deal with the attack. If the training wheels are off... uke should also...Making someone attack like a tool so you can trash 'em is not cool.
Yep. This whole assumption that no one will ever get behind a competent aikidoka unless allowed to do so? Really? You must not train with the same people I do.

Katherine
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:31 PM   #33
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Re: Ushiro

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Well that must be fun when people go up for their sankyu tests!

You really HAVE to allow uke to grab you and run around behind you or you don't get a chance to practice the ushiro techniques we have in mainstream Aikido.
I don't think there's much point in discussing this via internet. I'll just agree with Jon's observation that it's remarkably easy for a good attacker to get to your back, whether you're "allowing" him to or not.

Are people at the sankyu level good attackers? Maybe not, but they should at least be capable of challenging a sankyu-level defender.

Katherine
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Old 10-22-2015, 01:13 PM   #34
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Re: Ushiro

If we are saying that one of these ushiro attacks happens when you've failed to pull off a kosadori technique, and otherwise they should not happen, I think that's really problematic. (Though it may be entirely accurate).

First of all, its difficult. Just because George can ignore your kosadori technique and your attempts to keep your front to him, doesn't mean people who at or beneath your level are going to pull it off most times. So you are structuring your training such that 90% of the time uke fails to get around there and create the ushiro scenario. (And it's gonna be kosadori nikkyo most of the time...OWW).

Secondly...isn't this a bit fighty and competitive? (Nage, you want to try your best to do a kosa technique. But uke's, you want to shut that technique down if you can and take 'em in the rear.) YMMV on that. But for white belts, do you or don't you want them to practice ushiro techniques? Does that or doesn't it require nage NOT taking their balance on first contact but instead letting them come around behind? Otherwise they'll spend years fretting about how they don't get this first part right and will tend to not get to the next part. Or you just flat out confuse them because you are telling them to do two different things.

I think my overall agenda on this thing is that these techniques are part of the "Aikido is kind of like dancing" and "uke should never resist technique but should flow with it" side of Aikido that few people on these forums like very much.
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Old 10-22-2015, 01:32 PM   #35
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Re: Ushiro

(And they should probably be ditched from kihon waza, maybe replaced by having uke walk straight up to you from behind and try to do something).
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Old 10-22-2015, 01:50 PM   #36
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Re: Ushiro

I did not say that ushiro attacks only happen when a kosadori technique fails. See upthread, where I pointed out that uke could potentially be initiating their attack from any direction, or that there could be multiple attackers. But on the other hand, there are lots of ways to mess up a kosadori technique, and maybe one way to learn what they are and how to avoid them is to have them result in a ushiro-based reversal. I think your assumption that kosadori technique is 90% successful against a comparably skilled attacker is ... optimistic.

Yes, of course pulling off a ushiro attack from a frontal approach against a skillful defender is difficult. That's why people need to be taught to do it properly, so that their partners can train against people who know what they're doing.

Yes, of course there needs to be some cooperative element at the white belt level. I wouldn't attack a brand new beginner the same way I would attack a peer. Duh. But if I'm still attacking them the same way five, ten, or fifteen years later, is anyone actually learning anything?

Finally, I never said anything about resisting the technique. Going with the flow of nage's movement is often an *excellent* way to get behind them, because very often people have enormous openings to the back side.

Katherine
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Old 10-22-2015, 06:52 PM   #37
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ushiro

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I don't think there's much point in discussing this via internet. I'll just agree with Jon's observation that it's remarkably easy for a good attacker to get to your back, whether you're "allowing" him to or not.

Are people at the sankyu level good attackers? Maybe not, but they should at least be capable of challenging a sankyu-level defender.

Katherine
At our dojo, at junior levels ushiro attacks are done from static. Students get to focus on proper defensive body movement, forward projection rather than backing out, etc. instead of "running around nage", which is how I was taught it originally and always found silly. We first ramp up the static attack to trying to take arms back and take balance backwards, then transition to slowly dynamic attacks once they are successfully dealing with the static version.

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Old 10-23-2015, 02:59 AM   #38
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Re: Ushiro

Interesting comments...

Ever looked closely at higher ranked Aikidoka's doing ushiro?
How much time does aite really spent behind tori?
(go tai is not what I am addressing here,I refer to ryu tai/ki tai)

In Aikido you practise to withstand an attacker that is just little better than you are. That makes you think, search and try to solve the issues that arise.
An attacker that can get behind you is simply a little better than you are; try and find a way to prevent that! Why is it that George can enter and others cannot?
Study! You should have this mindset at all times!

but still your comments make me think about it, so thanx and keep 'em coming

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 10-23-2015, 06:40 AM   #39
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Re: Ushiro

I do like the static grabs for some types of practice, but if I'm on the move that type of attack is unlikely.

A shihan in Delaware had us practicing an interesting version of ushiro ryotekubidori. In low rank practice, we either grab or someone runs around and doesn't transmit movement into nage. The USAF Iriminage is entering behind and doing something I think related to Peter's GIF, Uke's spine is given a half twist so that they hit the floor face first if they don't react. Anyway, long lead into the story - we attacked by grabbing both wrists behind someone, but we kept moving in the same direction and uke falls face down with both hands secured behind. We had to do it slowly, and my sternum took a bit of a beating.

There are good structural lessons from a static grab, but the handful of times someone got behind me outside the dojo they didn't lightly hold my shoulder and wait. One bear hug had me picked up and dumped hard on the ground. Learning to respond to the feel of the movement coming on, not waiting until the grab is complete and locked down - these things are actually valid martial ideas.

The full choreography - I break it down to shift, step, or turn and the little dance does seem to usually involve some or all of these three movements in any particular order. Practice stuffing/reversing Iriminage.

I also borrow an idea I see in other practices - we are not going to do a whole kata in randori or a real situation. Each single movement is an opportunity to stop the interaction. I practiced tsuki uchi kaitenage many times; in randori making all the various movements real, I end up doing udekimenage or Shomenate or something less than the whole practice form. I like to approach it as someone wants to outflank me, and I try several things to stop this first.
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Old 10-23-2015, 10:07 AM   #40
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Re: Ushiro

From my perspective, ushiro attacks are, by their nature, an attack from the rear. That attack may follow a failed attack from any other direction, but it is not limited to that scenario. In fact, a failed preliminary movement may be a bait or distraction to facilitate taking the back; you see this all the time in wrestling arts. I think we confuse extending the attack with extra movement for the actual attack.

I tend to think of most of our attacks as starting with deliberate aspects built in to allow learning. Maybe its timing, maybe its distance, maybe its prohibiting movement, maybe its assumptions of intent. Whatever. I am adding room to let my partner figure things out. As we improve, we should remove the aspects that gave us the space and perspective to learn what to do. I would not grab a 6 kyu the same way I would grab a shodan. The attack should match the level of learning, understanding that we really can't handle some attacks at elevated levels of skill.

When you speak of defending rear attacks with impunity, it tarnishes what we do. There are good fighters who work very hard to attack and defend the rear who have the personal experience to understand it is actually very difficult to do both things. Ushiro is a trick - a tool that makes us work with something other than how we move our bodies from the front. My arms don't rotate the same way. My muscle bunches don't have the same strength. I can't see. These variables should drive us to better use the one thing that should work for us, aiki.

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Old 10-23-2015, 12:35 PM   #41
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Re: Ushiro

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At our dojo, at junior levels ushiro attacks are done from static. Students get to focus on proper defensive body movement, forward projection rather than backing out, etc. instead of "running around nage", which is how I was taught it originally and always found silly. We first ramp up the static attack to trying to take arms back and take balance backwards, then transition to slowly dynamic attacks once they are successfully dealing with the static version.
Yep, here too. But by sankyu, all test techniques are done dynamically.

Katherine
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Old 10-23-2015, 12:47 PM   #42
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Re: Ushiro

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I also borrow an idea I see in other practices - we are not going to do a whole kata in randori or a real situation. Each single movement is an opportunity to stop the interaction. I practiced tsuki uchi kaitenage many times; in randori making all the various movements real, I end up doing udekimenage or Shomenate or something less than the whole practice form. I like to approach it as someone wants to outflank me, and I try several things to stop this first.
Yep. The best technique is the one you never have to use, because you covered the opening before a potential attacker even saw it, and he decided to go bother someone else. Next best is to see his potential attack coming, move to prevent it, and force him to change plans (or go bother someone else). Next best is kuzushi on contact, rendering the rest of whatever he was planning to do ineffective. And so on.

To actually complete a dojo-style technique, you need an attacker who is skillful enough to *not* fail at any of the points between the initial attack and the final takedown: they keep attacking, no matter what you throw at them, until you are ultimately forced to complete the technique. (Of course, such an attacker will also be looking for reversal opportunities.)

This is generally more explicit in weapons forms. The way we are taught, each cut and each block is a potential finishing blow. The form happens only when each of these is successfully defended against. (And variations spring from other possible responses.)

Katherine
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:53 PM   #43
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Re: Ushiro

[quote=Katherine Derbyshire;345574
This is generally more explicit in weapons forms. The way we are taught, each cut and each block is a potential finishing blow. The form happens only when each of these is successfully defended against. (And variations spring from other possible responses.)

Katherine[/QUOTE]

I completely agree, and yet I wonder why that is so. Each sword cut is a potential lethal fight ending move, but when we say Aikido comes from the sword, each hand movement is not thought of as a fight ending move.

Ushiro katatedori starts I guess as a strike to the abdomen that presses the hand down. Then, kosadori which could lead to a take down or pull into an atemi, then grabbing me from behind where I am less effective and finishing off with a number of strikes (Kawahara sensei showed kicks to the back of the knees sometimes).

Go around in a silly dance is not martial. Going around, gaining momentum and locking the shoulder and spine and throwing with some centrifugal force, fine in martial. The problem isn't the going around.
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Old 10-24-2015, 08:34 AM   #44
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Re: Ushiro

I get kinda baffled by parts of these discussions. I see many techniques as simply additional ways to pressure test my ability to do my thing (aikido) regardless of what's going on. So if someone figures out a way to drop from the sky upside down flipping into position as they grab me, I'd be happily trying it out just to see what I could do and how I might adjust.

Every technique adds experience and allows more development. Yeah, I tend to focus on attacks I feel are more likely, but as the old expression goes, I'd pee on a spark plug if I thought it would help.

Heck, back when I was competing in high levels in tennis as a teen, I'd spend hours hitting a ball against the wall. Just to practice my strokes. I never planned on taking the wall on in a tournament.

So big shrug. Whatever.

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Old 10-24-2015, 12:45 PM   #45
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Re: Ushiro

I do like it when uke attacks logically and does not just run around me mindlessly. Ushiro attacks offer great opportunities to get moving.

I agree with Keith on this one. My goal is to never to be attacked in real life. Traditional aikido attacks allow me to move in kata with another allowing me to get to know me and them and how we interact together.

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Old 10-25-2015, 07:11 PM   #46
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Re: Ushiro

ooops

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 10-25-2015 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 10-26-2015, 09:08 AM   #47
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Re: Ushiro

I spent some time looking for a video I have seen of Osensei performing Ushiro techniques, but couldn't find anything. Does anybody happen to have a link to something?

I think these techniques, as they exist in the kihon waza of mainstream Aikido, probably came about when Tokyo Hombu people tried to imitate a thing they saw Osensei doing.

But there is a movement he makes with the first hand that suggests to me that he has captured uke on that initial contact anyways.
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Old 10-26-2015, 11:36 AM   #48
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Re: Ushiro

I don't know of any videos of ushiro waza featuring O Sensei. In Budo Renshu, there are several techniques from a rear attack. While not O Sensei, here is a video that includes some of the illustrations found in Budo Renshu; there are a couple of ushiro attacks at the end of the video. Budo Renshu was authored by O Sensei, so you get some perspective from him.

I make no assumptions about the video or the participants, but the illustrations clearly show a rear attack... from the rear (not a front attack that moves to the rear). The video does not represent the entirety of the ushiro waza, if I remember. Also, the book has a section which discusses the role of ushiro in training. Now, whether you want to consider Budo Renshu an aikido curriculum, not a daito ryu curriculum...

As a comment about the role of the our hands... There are people who can seriously injure you with their hands. We sometimes mistakes saying, "I could punch you and kill you," with people who can actually do that (but maybe don't say it). Most of the way we practice does not teach that type of power or predatory behavior anymore. We don't have "fight-ending" power in our movement anymore, so we need to either work those techniques out of the system or get that power back into the system. This is relegated to individuals and dojos. Ushiro waza is a good footing for that dialog because when you talk about a rear attack with a good number of other fighting systems they salivate, literally. That aikido is having the dialog about whether the attack works is probably pretty instructive about where we sit in applied fighting.

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Old 10-26-2015, 12:43 PM   #49
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Re: Ushiro

I believe the 1937 black and white does have some Ushiro ryokatadori hamni handachi on a randori. O Sensei is definitely moving, Uke's flying everywhere but not necessarily running around in a full circle.
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Old 10-26-2015, 07:15 PM   #50
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Re: Ushiro

As it has been explained and demonstrated to me... ukes choice to run around behind nage and attack from behind, having first grabbed from in front, is not his choice. It is nage's choice.
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