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Old 09-05-2002, 10:40 PM   #51
opherdonchin
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I guess I imagine personal growth changing more than just "how I handle a personal situation involving the potential for violence." At least, I know that when I think of AiKiDo in my daily life it has changed me in sort of deep ways that affect every interpersonal situation I face as well as simply my own attitude towards myself.

The idea (and you are certainly not required to endorse this; I'm just telling you about my experience) is that AiKiDo changed my perspective on the world. As such, it has probably also affected my politics.

In my particular case, I don't think its effect on my politics is all that great compared to its effect on more personal things, but that probably also reflects the importance that I attach to politics in my life.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 09-06-2002, 08:18 AM   #52
virginia_kyu
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Opher, again as I said before what I am really talking about as people using Akido as some sort of official dogma to hammer everyone one about what the proper "Aiki" way to handle a world crisis is.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-06-2002, 08:43 AM   #53
opherdonchin
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How do you tell the difference between dogma and a legitimately AiKi-influenced perspective?

What is the line between pointing out where my ideas of AiKi differ from someone elses and hammering them?

Not trying to bait you. These are real questions that I struggle with in my life, not just for the sake of this discussion.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 09-06-2002, 09:45 AM   #54
virginia_kyu
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Quote:
Interestingly enough, one of the original definitions of "aiki" as used in some koryu arts (established a long time before the founder of aikido was even born) was to dominate, crush, and (basically) kill the opponent by being able to "match" their movements and intent...

-- Jun
Think about what Jun posted here Opher.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-06-2002, 10:04 AM   #55
opherdonchin
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Well, that's certainly not the use O'Sensei gave to the term, nor the one that is in common parlance today. It's not the way I use the term. I admit that it's very interesting and reflects (to me) the changes in Japanese society as it devolved into the imperial horror it became approaching WWII. It is in response to that political philosophy, to a large extent, that AiKiDo as we know it was born.

So, is that quote an example of what you mean by personal development?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 09-06-2002, 10:39 AM   #56
virginia_kyu
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Quote:
Well, that's certainly not the use O'Sensei gave to the term, nor the one that is in common parlance today.
I am also pretty sure that O'Sensei was not a hippie neither was he a pacifist.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-06-2002, 10:43 AM   #57
opherdonchin
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On what basis are you making that claim?

Anyone with some background in Ueshiba's political philosophy want to weigh in? I don't feel qualified to address this point.

Mike: are you avoiding my questions on purpose?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:03 AM   #58
virginia_kyu
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Quote:
So, is that quote an example of what you mean by personal development?
No I am not trying to avoid your question at all. The quote is not what I mean by personal development, it is what aiki means.
Quote:
How do you tell the difference between dogma and a legitimately AiKi-influenced perspective?
There really isnt much difference. It is when people try to use Aikido as a platform for political ideology that it becomes annoying to me.
Quote:
What is the line between pointing out where my ideas of AiKi differ from someone elses and hammering them?
It really depends on the context.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:18 AM   #59
Xentilius
 
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Neil, do not forget that the USA had dropped the nuclear/atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think he did not blame or had forgave them. Otherwise he would not have sent his student, Koichi Tohei to spead Aikido to the U.S . We should know that this is much more worst than planes crashing into buildings.

The nuclear/atomic bombs had a great impact on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. People there have disformed body until today. Even their offspring have this effects.

I think u should know what is more devasting.
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:19 AM   #60
Xentilius
 
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Sorry abt the name, its Neal..
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:29 AM   #61
virginia_kyu
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Quote:
Neil, do not forget that the USA had dropped the nuclear/atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think he did not blame or had forgave them. Otherwise he would not have sent his student, Koichi Tohei to spead Aikido to the U.S . We should know that this is much more worst than planes crashing into buildings.

The nuclear/atomic bombs had a great impact on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. People there have disformed body until today. Even their offspring have this effects.

I think u should know what is more devasting.
I am sorry but what does that have to do with what we are talking about here?

-- Michael Neal
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Old 09-06-2002, 11:35 AM   #62
Erik
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Well, that's certainly not the use O'Sensei gave to the term, nor the one that is in common parlance today. It's not the way I use the term.
I believe at one point in his career Ueshiba roughly defined aiki as

the practice of blending and harmonizing with someone in order to get them to do what you want.
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:39 AM   #63
Erik
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Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
I am also pretty sure that O'Sensei was not a hippie neither was he a pacifist.
He may not have been a pacifist but I think by Japanese standards he was out there. From what I know, I would have no problem calling him a Japanese hippie. Maybe that's not really fair but I kind of like the concept.

Do the Japanese have such a thing as a hippie?
 
Old 09-06-2002, 01:25 PM   #64
shihonage
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I just got a poster in the mail today from AiKiDo Today Magazine. It shows pictures of two pairs of hands in contact, ready for kokyu dosa or whatever you call it, and the legend read, "A Way to Reconcile the World"
I kept that particular poster on my wall for a while, but then noticed that the more Aikido-related things I have in visible range, the more often I skip Aikido classes (I guess what the common masses nowadays would call Feng-Shuism or whatever)... so I took it down...
 
Old 09-06-2002, 01:29 PM   #65
opherdonchin
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Boy, I hope it doesn't affect me that way. I just purchased it to put up in my lab in hopes that it would remind me that I should leave and go to class.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 09-06-2002, 03:57 PM   #66
Kevin Leavitt
 
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To answer your earlier question about ikkyo Michael.

Obviously different people will get different understandings out of ikkyo.

I have found after a few years of study that the lessons I learn in studying aikido and the skills I learn as an infantrymen are very relevant to everyday life.

Ikkyo is a physical technique, no question about it, but the physical can be a good reminder of the mental which is harder to keep a fix on.

For example, I have found when I try to anticipate a shomenuchi to perform ikkyo that it does not work. Uke can simply redirect and adjust his attack to keep me from doing ikkyo.

By waiting for the attack to develop and he believes he will hit me, he commits, I irimi and respond appropriately.

life works the same way. How many times to you presume that someone is going to have a certain behavior or have a certain reaction, we usually react lashing out in anger or saying something that maybe totally in appropriate to the person. Sometime we regret what we have done or said, other times we may not realize the damage at all because of the opportunties lost to develop a relationship.

I posted in the "Other" area a long story about a lesson I learned in Ranger School. That I won't repeat here, but it relates to this type of theory.

How we act, react and carry ourselves physically affects us spiritually, and mentally...you cannot separate the three aspects IMHO...so I feel Ikkyo and Aikido in general is very relevant to everyday situations.

Hope this helps explain how I feel.

 
Old 09-06-2002, 09:26 PM   #67
virginia_kyu
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I can understand that Kevin, that is perfectly fine with me if you view it that way. I just don't see Aikido that way.

I am honestly not trying to put down anyone's personal beliefs here. I am just raising concerns that I have and giving my perpective for what it is worth.

Anyway, as I stated on the Iraq thread I am going so I won't be posting anymore here. It has been a very interesting discussion.

PS: I have to say one thing though, when I am practicing Aikido on the mat I really feel all of my aggression leave me. It is a purifying experience to me, I guess that is what I meant by personal growth.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-07-2002, 03:18 AM   #68
mike lee
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reality

If you are not the same person on the mat as you are in the voting booth, then you are two-faced.
 
Old 09-07-2002, 01:09 PM   #69
opherdonchin
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Two-faced sounds harsh, and probably isn't exaclty what you meant (yes?) Perhaps instead of suggesting that Mike is being intentionally duplicitous (which is what two-faced would mean) it would be more appropriate to say that if that experience of feeling the agression leave is a positive one for him, it might be worth asking himself how he might find it in other walks of life. Indeed, it might be worth asking why he doesn't find it other places. What makes AiKiDo so different and special?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 09-07-2002, 02:01 PM   #70
virginia_kyu
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I don't have words for Mike Lee that are appropriate to use on these forums.

I am not saying here that I walk around all day in an agressive state until I get to Aikido. I am actually quite a calm, polite, and peaceful person. What I was trying to say that any aggression that I might have had during the day like stress is relieved when I am doing aikido. I think the flowing movements of it all helps me to unwind from the day, thats all really.

I would love to continue this discussion but there are too many people that want to launch personal attacks rather than discuss and debate, and in the interest of my own personal harmony I am going elsewere to discuss Aikido.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-07-2002, 02:27 PM   #71
opherdonchin
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Where are you going, Mike?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 09-07-2002, 04:19 PM   #72
virginia_kyu
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aikido journal

-- Michael Neal
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Old 09-07-2002, 04:50 PM   #73
Brian H
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"non-violence"

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
He may not have been a pacifist but I think by Japanese standards he was out there. From what I know, I would have no problem calling him a Japanese hippie. Maybe that's not really fair but I kind of like the concept.

Do the Japanese have such a thing as a hippie?


When I think of O'Sensei, I do not think "hippie"

If I had to put him into a 60's cliché, I think I would see him on as more the rebel biker.

When I look at his picture (especially the ones of him when he was younger), I see a real bad ass dude.

I know him only though his teaching as passed down through his students.

My original teacher speculated that "modern" aikido is influenced by the fact that all of the remaining original students of O'Sensei studied Aikido as young men from a old man. Aikido did change over the years as O'Sensei evolved in and as he aged.

I have been told by people inside and outside Aikido that it is about "non-violence."

I have never really agreed with this, because I do not find it "non-violent" to spin somebody around and toss them onto the back of the head.

I see instead, the moderation of violence. Some techniques are safer/gentler than others, and the focus of my study is to find ways to use technique to reduce harm.

I have seen many Aikidoka remark how violence on a nation scale or in response to the 9-11 attacks is "un-aiki"

O'Sensei's writings and teachings give atemi an important role in the application of Aikido technique in combat, and when nations make war I do not see how a bomb could not be used as atemi in an effort to reduce the overall harm of making war.

Xent cites the use of Atom bomb in WWII as being similar to the 9-11 attacks.

I strongly disagree.

The atomic bombings were indeed horrific, but they averted the need to mount an invasion of Japan. Such an invasion would have likely incurred millions of casualties on both sides. The quick end to the war was a worthy goal (although many will disagree with the means).

The 9-11 attacks served only do cause death, destruction and harm. They were meant as a beginning of a war, not an end.

Last edited by Brian H : 09-07-2002 at 04:58 PM.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 09-07-2002, 04:56 PM   #74
opherdonchin
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A lot of AiKi (as I understand it) is about intent. In that sense, people arguing that atomic bombs were meant to save lives may have been doing their best version of AiKi. That's hard to tell. Of course, like anyone who has watched a beginner test knows: their best version of AiKi may not be the best version you can imagine; you still need to respect the AiKi that's there.

Certainly, the 9-11 attacks would not count as that. Or would they? Maybe that is their version of AiKi. Pretty scary, but worth a thought. I've seen some pretty lousy beginner tests.

And where would an attack on Iraq be? Or any other political move? I guess the idea is that the question of 'is it AiKi' is always relevant. You can always judge things that way (if judging is what you like to do). Starting with the judgement may not be the best way to teach, though.

Clearly, my thoughts are being influenced by multiple simultaneous threads.

Mike: I'm sorry to see you go.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 09-07-2002, 09:05 PM   #75
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Mike, glad you see aikido as a purifying experience on the mat. I think after studying it a while you may find that it carries over into your life in many other ways off the mat. Starting on the mat is what you must do however.

It took me a number of years before I really understood this, really not until recently.

I must tell you that I went to Mike Lasky's seminar today, and it was one of the best days of my life, not on the mat, but off the mat.

I was sitting in a resturant with 6 other aikidoka, one who is my karate sensei for 10 years, the others friends I met just today. The friendship and bond we shared was as if we had been friends for ever.

My karate sensei, is now a very close friend of mine with a family, they stayed with us last night and we all had a good time talking and sharing our feelings etc.

I can tell you that it will enrich your life off the mat eventually, so don't give up, but don't try too hard either, enjoy the experience as it is presented daily.

As for personal attacks, sometimes we provoke them, some time not. But as I said earlier, it takes two to fight and clash egos. So, if someone is attacking you personally, well they are as wrong as your are.

Sometimes though things you see as an attack is someone just trying to be honest with you and show you "flaws" or weaknesses in your "technique". It is hard for all of us to accept criticism from time to time.

If everyone in the world would try really hard, try past the point of when it hurt, to truly understand another, true empathy...then we may learn to have compassion for others and see through their facades. Finding the real person underneath has shown me that 99% of all people are just like me, good people struggling to make sense out of this thing we call life!

I wish you luck Michael, and hope aikido continues to be a tool that will allow you to get out of it what you want!

 

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