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Old 08-23-2002, 04:22 PM   #1
DaveO
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Question Curious technique?

Hi folks!

Recently, I've been thinking about Aikido and how it could be adapted to modern urban combat techniques. (I'm done with the Army, but I don't stop thinking about it, if you follow me. ) I started thinking about a basic handgun disarmament and how it could be 'aikidoized'; got stumped, then came at it from the other direction: which aikido technique could be adapted for such-and-such a situation using the aforementioned disarmament as the initial move. Then I went and tried it out with a friend - another ex-soldier and a crackerjack pistol shot. We've done this before; we practice using a Crossman pellet pistol (the one that looks like a 9mm. handgun) with tinfoil pellets - hurt like hell if they hit, but don't break the skin.
Anyway, here's what I came up with:
Disarming a handgun from the front is fairly easy, so I used the only slightly more difficult scenario of the weapon being held on me, from the side, i.e. at the 9:00 position with the muzzle jammed into my waist. The initial counter: I moved my L foot back slightly, exactly as I do when moving into hanmi. Since the body stays over one-point, it doesn't move, so the movement is almost unnoticeable. My left arm comes up and with the thumb high, I grasp his wrist right at the base of the hand. As my arm does this, I rock back onto my L foot, drop one-point six inches and twist to the right, bringing my feet into line. My left hand (with his weapon hand) then thrusts out straight (the 'new' straight - if I started this thing at 12:00, I twisted to 1:30, the arm-thrust goes straight out from my body as I twist, ending at 3:00 - hope that's clearer than I think it is). I rock back to the R foot. The gunman is now overextended to his front and off-balance. My free (right) hand comes up, palm to the back of his trapped weapon hand into kote-gashi. Completing the throw leaves him on his back with a sore wrist, staring down his own muzzle.
When it's written out, the whole thing looks pretty complicated to my eyes, but from initial arm movement to the point when my right hand touched his took somewhat less than a second to complete. I'm no expert at kote-gashi - only been shown it a couple of times but it has a very logical sequence. Brian told me - and I saw for myself, when we traded places - that grasping the wrist like that made it almost impossible to fire due to the way it forces the fingers outward. In any event; the move was too fast to fire on anyway.
My question is: Since it's extremely unlikely I invented a new aikido move, can anyone tell me the proper name of what I just described, and suggest any refinements? Thanx.
Dave

Last edited by DaveO : 08-23-2002 at 04:29 PM.

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Old 08-25-2002, 11:32 AM   #2
DaveO
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Just talked about it with my instructor after today's informal class and we tried it a couple of times. Her conclusion was that it works quite well with the kote-gaeshi, but would work better with Gokyo. I haven't learned Gokyo yet, so she demonstrated it and YOWIE!!!!!!! Yup, Gokyo works better.

Dave

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Old 08-25-2002, 11:43 AM   #3
erminio
 
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Hi Dave!

I don't want to be unpolite, but: are you really really sure that you can do it before the bad guy push the trigger? I won't bet on it.. maybe you're faster than me.

Have a good day

Erminio
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Old 08-25-2002, 11:59 AM   #4
DaveO
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Yes, since the weapon was loaded at the time. Also, Brian and I trust each other completely in the use of weapons; we're both very well trained in that area, although he's considerably better than I am in the use of handguns. In training of this type, given the scenario we were very definitely trying to shoot one another - the safety precautions we take making sure a sucessful hit would hurt, but not injure, save a good bruise.

Dave

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Old 08-25-2002, 01:05 PM   #5
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Statistics aside, if someone has a gun pointed at you with finger in the trigger well, you must assume that they have intent to use it. (but it is situational dependent).

If you believe that they intend to use it then no matter what the odds are, you are always better to take some action than no action at all.

A well qualified action that Dave is attempting to develop is even better.

No, I don't believe that you can develop a 100% fool proof method of preventing yourself from getting shot.

I would prefer that the gunman be "connected" and pressed up against me rather than a few feet away...I think this dramatically improves the chance of success if you are a trained martial artist. (again, situational dependent).

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Old 08-25-2002, 02:37 PM   #6
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Hi !

I been trying to come up with a technique for

for a gun pointed to the front of the face,

I haven't tried it out yet but here's where I'm at : get in gyaku-hanmi off line stand

as if to do a nikkyo but grab the barrel like

gokkyo without changing stance ,tenkan deep

like ikkyo -left hand behind ukes right elbow,get left hand from elbow to wrist,

use left elbow to push down with bodyweight

disarm in a kotegaeshi manner by turning barrel towards ukes face and throw it away.

The right hand must come up to gokkyo grip from center to be quickkest and not seen -

no big swing gokkyo here !

Yours - Chr.B.
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Old 08-25-2002, 04:17 PM   #7
mj
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Quote:
Christian Boddum (ChristianBoddum) wrote:
Hi !

I been trying to come up with a technique for

for a gun pointed to the front of the face,

I haven't tried it out yet but here's where I'm at : get in gyaku-hanmi off line stand

as if to do a nikkyo but grab the barrel like

gokkyo without changing stance ,tenkan deep

like ikkyo -left hand behind ukes right elbow,get left hand from elbow to wrist,

use left elbow to push down with bodyweight

disarm in a kotegaeshi manner by turning barrel towards ukes face and throw it away.

The right hand must come up to gokkyo grip from center to be quickkest and not seen -

no big swing gokkyo here !

Yours - Chr.B.
Does you Life Assurance company know you are practicing this?

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Old 08-25-2002, 04:36 PM   #8
DaveO
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Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
No, I don't believe that you can develop a 100% fool proof method of preventing yourself from getting shot.

I would prefer that the gunman be "connected" and pressed up against me rather than a few feet away...I think this dramatically improves the chance of success if you are a trained martial artist. (again, situational dependent).
True; although the specific scenario in which one would find themselves in this situation is not defined (we were thinking along the lines of a military capture situation, but not holding to that), there is always considerable risk, especially when handguns are involved. When dealing with handguns, in general, the closer your attacker, the better your chances, but the risk is always going to be there. The question becomes balancing the risk to your life from doing something or not; after events in Bosnia and Rwanda, I wouldn't allow myself to be captured without one HELL of a fight.

Dave

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Old 08-25-2002, 08:28 PM   #9
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Military situation is typically different than civilian from a motivational standpoint.

Usually in a civilian standpoint, the person doesn't have anything personal against you other than wanting money or some item or possession. (unless they are psycho and warped.)

In a military situation, I would agree with you, stay the hell away from your enemy.

There are many, many plans your captors have for you, none in your best interest. In the typically senario we face today, your life has less meaning to them than in wars past!

Good luck in your pursuit! Wish I were there to work with you on them!

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Old 08-26-2002, 07:00 AM   #10
DaveO
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Yeah, if I remember from past posts, you're either current or former US Army Rangers? An excellent group; we've had some dealings from time to time - thing I like about the Rangers is they seemed to care more about training (and cross-training with us) than about advertising themselves as Americans, unlike some US marines I could name... (heh heh heh)

Put up a pretty damn good fight on the football field too.

Anyway, I've seen reports that the Rangers have officially adopted BJJ (or Gracie JJ - is there a difference?) as their basic UC ( Unarmed Combat) training - is this true? Just curious. Were I still active, I'd be looking at blending current Canadian UC doctrine (sort of a weird cross between JJ and Ninjitsu, similar to what our RCMP are taught, but more intense) with combat-centered aikido, particularly against personal weapons. Current CF UC training is excellent, but I always felt it was a bit lacking in defensive disarmament.

Dave

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Old 08-26-2002, 07:59 AM   #11
davoravo
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I have read, in one of the odd combat video ads that seem to be emailed to me, that it is imprtant to grasp the hand, not the wrist when dealing with a handgun. If you grasp the wrist the weapon tends to flail and go off where as if you grasp the base of the hand as DaveO described this won't happen.

David McNamara
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Old 08-26-2002, 08:17 AM   #12
Bruce Baker
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The old defense of having a weapon touch your body in an extended arm position is to roll around the weapon before the muscles can move to either pull the trigger, stab, or activate the weapons usefull purpose.

Derivations of this touch and move/ roll/ slide around the weapon can go on with many variations.

But those who keep distance, or protect the weapon from opponents, that is another matter.
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Old 08-26-2002, 08:24 AM   #13
DaveO
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Quote:
"I have read, in one of the odd combat video ads that seem to be emailed to me, that it is imprtant to grasp the hand, not the wrist when dealing with a handgun. If you grasp the wrist the weapon tends to flail and go off where as if you grasp the base of the hand as DaveO described this won't happen."
You're right, but I'm going to add this caution: Grasping too high on the back of the hand will tighten, rather than loosen, his grip on the weapon, including his fingers, trigger finger as well. It'd have to be pretty high on the hand for that (inadvertantly shooting yourself with his handgun), but the hand (sans fingers) is only about 3 inches long - a small target to aim for. The ideal spot is this: Starting from the wrist, the hand is sorta cone-shaped. Aim for the very top of the cone, just where it flares out from the wrist. The loosening effect is very, very slight, but every little bit helps. Grabbing the wrist is bad - as the contact point, it accellerates first, leaving the hand, with gun, behind slightly, thus pointing the weapon back towards your body; a very bad place for it.

But saying that folks, remember this: I was examining this from a very specific viewpoint; that of a soldier defending himself in a combat situation. I do not in any way suggest or condone this, or this type of training, for anyone untrained in the use of personal weapons - it's too dangerous, too easy to make a mistake. This scenario makes my case for me; you have to V-grip the hand PRECISELY, as fast as your reflexes allow, without looking. That is HARD. I didn't mention in my 1st post that Bri hit me about 6 times before I got the grip right, and I've been actively training in this fashion since 1986.

I put this caveat in there because after looking at this thread, I realized that there may be a few numb-nuts out there that think 'OK, this worked for that guy; I know how to defend myself against handguns!'

Handguns are dangerous, unpredictable and more than sufficiently loaded with enough popular myth and misconception to make toying with them a very bad idea. If you want to train to defend against them, or against knives, don't look it up in a book, or on a webpage somewhere, find an instructor SPECIFICALLY qualified to teach anti-weapon tactics. That's all my opinion, of course, but it's your life.

Dave

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Old 08-26-2002, 08:41 AM   #14
Mel Barker
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Excellent practice. I've done extensive training in the area myself. Training in aikido and combat shooting, naturally I wanted to bring the two together. My shooting has informed my aikido, and my aikido has improved my shooting.

First, be sure to wear eye protection when actually using a projectile! The first thing I always do when training with guns, real or other, is to go over the 4 rules of gun safety. (See Below.) I consider it very important to maintain muzzle control while performing a technique. You may not have control of the trigger when doing any technique, so controlling the muzzle is vitally important. Imagine your wife or daughter standing next to you when doing these techniques. The best way to control the muzzle is to make sure it doesn't point at you, points to the ground, points in the air, or points at the attacker.

With these preliminary ideas in place you will find that you can do a number of aikido techniques from a variety of positions and attacks. For those without a gun and beginners I think it is much better to use a tanto and just have uke stick you with it when you move. If you can avoid getting stuck, you can avoid getting shot! If using a gun, (I use a rubber one) be sure to be careful not to break ukes finger with the trigger guard. It is easy to do. Actually, you will find the leverage the gun provides will greatly increase the strength of your technique, so practice with mindfulness just like you would in your dojo.

You have found Kotegaeshi to be an excellent technique. Nikkyos are particularly devastating as well. Both allow you to control the muzzle. Those two along with Sankyo allow for the requirement of muzzle control, so I limit my training with guns to these techniques. Sometimes however you just get an Ikkyo. In these cases I think it is best to go strongly to the ground before attempting a change to the control techniques. The muzzle is out of control for a shorter time, and--let's face it--it's so much easier to change to nikkyo when uke is worried about his hand bouncing on the ground!

If you have done aikido for some time, you will know a variety of techniques to try. If you haven't, just ask your sensei to show you techniques against being held at knifepoint.

One of the things that you learn when studying handgun martial art is the time it takes to pull the trigger. All those people that say you don't have time to do this stuff don't train with handguns! Just like you probably wouldn't go to an aikido seminar taught by a gokyu, don't take advice about gun waza from people who don't study it.

That being said, it takes between one that two seconds minimum to actually make the decision and pull the trigger. Your uke will usually be faster than a real assailant since he knows the game. Someone holding you at gun point doesn't want to shoot you right then (or he would do so), he wants to compel some action or your part. This greatly slows down his ability to shoot. So just train slowly at first, working on mastering the techniques and controlling the muzzle. You will gain proficiency with time and practice. Remember, you can't learn aikido fast! That means both quickly and moving fast. Go slow, get it right. Gun people say, "smooth is fast." It's the same for aikido. Good Luck.

Four Rules of Gun Safety

1. All guns are loaded! Until you have checked yourself. If you put an unloaded gun down, it's now loaded!

2. Don't let your muzzle cover anything that you don't want to destroy. This means you as well.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sites are on the target.

4. Be sure of your target.

Follow these rules and you will not have a gun accident!

For more info on shooting check out the International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) at http://www.idpa.com/
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Old 08-26-2002, 09:12 AM   #15
DaveO
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Thanks, Mel, good post. I didn't really think about it before starting this thread, but a lot of folks have a very cavalier/unrealistic attitude when it comes to personal weapons. It was just this morning that I thought about the potential risks of discussing such a subject, although I think this thread is a good one, from an educational standpoint.

just to be sure I'm clear with everyone: I don't like handguns. At all. I rate them right up there with land mines and disco on my personal list of things that make me happy. When required to train with and use them, I consider them a useful tool, nothing more. But for every offence, there must be a defence; it's the development of tactics that sparks my interest.

BTW, Mel, this is way off subject, but since you're knowledgable on the subject, here's a question that's been bugging me: do you have any idea who the bonehead is that came up with the idea they're using in all the movies now - that of holding the weapon horizontally? Not only is it the DUMBEST looking thing, it's accuracy is zero, spent casings go sailing everywhere and it puts an unhealthy strain on the wrist, as far as I can see. (I could be wrong, I've never fired a handgun in such a ridiculous posture.) It just looks tough, I guess. (I just laugh a bit when I see movie gangsters holding their hanguns like that, but I saw a war movie with 'marines' doing it as well!)

Dave

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Old 08-26-2002, 10:48 AM   #16
Ray Kissane
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Well Mel hit some of the points that I wanted to make. A couple of things I would add is that unless you train alot never try and get control of the gun unless you can touch it. I have seen to many times where people have been killed because they made a move to gain control of a gun and the attacker side stepped and shot them. They just did not understand the body mechanics involved to know how to close the distance. There are ways of closing the distance so that it is hard for the attacker to repoint the gun at you by the time you gain control of the weapon hand but you have to know how to step.

In the style that I train in, we try and move so that our body is between the gun hand and the free hand(inside)this is not always possible. This makes it harder for the attacker to switch the weapon between hands as you are trying to do a technique on one hand.

Be careful in using kote-gashi because if you do not put it on properly at the start the attacker is able to pull the trigger. As Mel said you have to be worried about the people around you. You should be out of the path as you are doing technique put who is placed into the path as you move the gun?

My instructor Robert MacEwen puts out several tapes and one of them is on handgun disarming. The tape shows methods of taking the gun by working against the attackers weak points in the hand. By doing the methods shown there is less chance of turning the weapon towards someone. He also has done training of FBI instructors on hand gun disarming. We also do alot of work with police officers locally.

I have trained with people who have stress 2 points: Keep it simple, find one technique you can do from a variey of angles so that you train your body how to move without any thought of which technique to do. The other point is to move the hand with the weapon down and away from the baody so that if it goes off you are not blinded and there are less flash burns. These are also good points to play with.

Ray Kissane

Ray Kissane
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Old 08-27-2002, 09:27 AM   #17
Mel Barker
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Dave,

Jeff Cooper is often called "the father of modern defensive pistolcraft" or something to that effect. He attemted to find some rationale for the sideways gun waza that is all the rage in the movies. He said some people believe a version of it was used by the Mosad when performing executions at point blank range.

I can see no reason for it, but it sure teaches the punks that would do such things bad gun handling and marksmanship. I consider that a great public service.

Another interesting fact: 90% of handgun shooting victims live, 80% of stabbing victims live. So it's safer to be shot than stabbed. I'm going to try to avoid both.
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Old 08-27-2002, 09:31 AM   #18
DaveO
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Lol - I'm not too familiar with Mossad, save from the limited dealings we've had with the Israeli Army, but one thing I do know - they sure know how to handle handguns.

Doing a bit of research, (watching old action movies), I think that Bruce Willis started it.

Dave

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Old 08-27-2002, 09:38 AM   #19
Jim ashby
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As an ex competetive pistol shooter, the orientation of the gun is irrelevant as long as the sight picture is correct. I used to use a horizontal hold when using the pistol weak (left) handed. It put the sights easily into the field of view of my strong (right) eye.

Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 08-27-2002, 10:08 AM   #20
memyselfandi
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Quote:
do you have any idea who the bonehead is that came up with the idea they're using in all the movies now - that of holding the weapon horizontally?
I heard it had something to do with the fact that when the perp is holding the gun right it blocks his face from the camera (fixed by having him hold it sideways). This is just word of mouth so I could be way off . And about the acuracy thing...have you ever seen the bad guys win in a gun fight

PS - I understand shooting this way can be very painfull (and its actually a bit more accurate than one might think )(again, just word of mouth )
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Old 08-27-2002, 08:17 PM   #21
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Hey Dave,

Missed posting the last couple of days.

Yea I'am a Ranger. Not really up on what is going on down at Benning...but there is nothing "official" that Rangers will ever adopted as far as a style of MA.

But, then we pride ourselves on being "unofficial". More than likely BJJ is in vogue like it is in much of the west right now.

You would probably find that many (myself included) to be somewhat critical of BJJ for military application, since they spend so much of their time on the ground.(Not good in multiple opponent situation!)

I frankly have found MA to not be all that important from a tactical application standpoint. (Empty hand)

Escrima, knife stuff is actually probably much more desirable.

For what it is worth, I held my own with Aikido "in the pit" when going through training in a four man fight. (Most of what I did was stand around and watch three guys duke it out, once the odds were much better, i delt with one guy!) Not really aikido, but common sense. Would you believe my platoon though I was a wimp for not "fighting" or hitting even though I won??? What do you expect from a bunch of 18 year old knuckle heads though!

Anyway, Richard Strozzi Heckler does work with SF and I believe the Marines. The Marines have gone so far as to incorporate MA and a belt system into their culture. A great thing I think. About a year old, not sure how it is going. I would love to get involved in such an iniative. Been meaning to make it down to Quantico to talk to the LTC that is running the program, but haven't made it yet!

In our current wartime environment in Operations Other than War and Low Intensity Conflict, I find Martial Arts, and aikido in particular to be very, very relevant to our success in the military.

I highly reccomend Mr Hecklers book "In Search of the Warrior Spirit" if you have not read it yet. Great book!

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Old 08-27-2002, 08:20 PM   #22
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Oh yea, Even though I am proficient in most modern weapon systems. I too like yourself, really do not like handguns.

Personally I think they tend to get me into more trouble than keep me out of it.

I carry a Kubuton for personal protection.

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Old 08-27-2002, 10:43 PM   #23
akiy
 
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Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Anyway, Richard Strozzi Heckler does work with SF and I believe the Marines. The Marines have gone so far as to incorporate MA and a belt system into their culture. A great thing I think. About a year old, not sure how it is going. I would love to get involved in such an iniative. Been meaning to make it down to Quantico to talk to the LTC that is running the program, but haven't made it yet!
If you're talking about his Marine Warrior Project which was a follow-up to his Trojan Warrior Project with the Green Beret, you can read about it in the Aiki Extensions Newletter #9 here:

http://www.aiki-extensions.org/newsletters/

There were measurable results in people after having undergone their training. Interesting study...

-- Jun

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Old 08-27-2002, 10:44 PM   #24
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Thank Jun, will check it out. Yes that is what I am talking about.

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Old 08-30-2002, 11:44 AM   #25
Bruce Baker
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If you must use weapons that make noise, please stick to toy cap pistols and guns?

If you get so excited at your success, absolutely do not use any loaded weapons, even with blanks the flash could cause injury.

You all probably know this, but my life has seen too many accidents with weapons to ignore not mentioning this.

Thanks.
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