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Old 08-25-2002, 08:03 PM   #51
"Unregistered"
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Anonymous User
To CA:

I agree with you in that I feel that people who have had bad experiences with husbands or aikido teachers or bosses or whatever are responsible to some degree for what has happened - but they are not responsible for ALL of it.

To only focus on the "victim's" responsibility is more or less to absolve the other party of responsibility. There is a difference between failure to set boundaries (your responsibility/fault) and setting clear boundaries and not having them respected (not your fault) - you cannot control and are not responsible for other people's behavior.

People can, if they choose, override your wishes in one way or another, no matter how clearly you state what your boundaries are, and what the consequences will be to you or others.

Sometimes you can either leave, or continue to put up with BS. If you must leave something you have invested in (be it a marriage, or your aikido training/dojo community, or a job), the loss of your marriage, training, or job is NOT necessarily all your fault.

The key it seems to me is information.

Not seeing red flags most people would notice? your fault. Failure to communicate what you need? your fault. Sticking around a lousy situation hoping it will get better all by itself? also your fault. Denying that bad things are happening because you don't want to look at it? your fault.

Not knowing someone's history because they choose to lie about it and nobody has told you otherwise? Not really your fault, unless you believe in hiring private eyes to check everyone out.

Trusting someone because up until point A they have only been pleasant towards you? How can that be your fault?

Forming some kind of agreement or contract with someone, and they don't hold up their end of the bargain? Not your fault.

Someone does something to hurt you, even if you already told them it would? Not your fault, they chose to do it with knowledge of the consequences. It is your fault if this happens over and over and you don't leave.

In some settings, asserting yourself (setting clear boundaries) is not acceptable to the Person In Charge, as it is seen as a threat to their authority. Then you are in the "put up with BS or leave" situation. There are dojos like this. This kind of environment is hard on healthy people and can be dangerous to the aikido student with boundary or past-abuse issues.
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Old 08-25-2002, 08:24 PM   #52
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Boy, lots and lots of fault being thrown around in that post. In my life, it seems like almost all the problems start when we try to figure out whose fault something is. As soon as something is either your fault or my fault (rather than 'our fault' or, even better, 'our issue to work on'), it becomes very hard to function in a useful or productive matter, now matter whose fault you decided it is. At least, that's how it seems to work in my life.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-25-2002, 09:15 PM   #53
guest1234
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People can lie about their past, and hide their behavior. But that has nothing to do with my original statement about adults in a consenting relationship. It does not change my belief that anyone who invests the kind of unequal power you are saying they give a sensei needs more than Aikido, they need therapy (and probably a 'no dating' period). Have I dated men who have been less than honest? Yes. When I find out, I drop them. Too fragile to deal with Aikido instructors who may not be honest? Then don't date them. Or anyone else who may lie, which is a pretty sizable group.

If you are too fragile an adult to date an Aikido instructor, because you give them this unreasonable power over you, then you are too fragile to be dating just about anyone---they do not have that power, you are giving it to them (forcing it on them?), and the fact that you think they are so powerful is just another indicator that it is not yet time to give up those 50 minute hours. With appologies to all past senseis, they are just not all that important or powerful, and someone who makes them so can just as easily ascribe power to they guy who pet-sits their dog, the woman who cuts their hair, or the guy who works three desks over at work.

I am not saying such a person is bad; and I was someone once who had no business dating until I took care of some things in my head. So I did myself (and the male half of the population) a favor, and sat out the game while tending to my injuries. But I am saying that adults who cannot enter into adult relationships like an adult should get therapy, and it is their responsibility to do so.

I've been in 'put up with it or leave' dojos. I left.
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Old 08-26-2002, 04:48 AM   #54
Edward
Location: Bangkok
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Quote:
James Singleton (wanderingwriath) wrote:
On the contrary Edward: there is a large body of psychological study that shows a big association and corolation between sex and violence.
Great News! Would this mean that every time I practice aikido, I am unconsciously involved in S&M?
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Old 08-26-2002, 04:52 AM   #55
mike lee
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Cool I don't get it

After making love, I don't feel very violent -- just want to sleep.
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Old 08-26-2002, 06:09 AM   #56
guest1234
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Re: I don't get it

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
After making love, I don't feel very violent -- just want to sleep.
I seem to recall a famous 'sex educator' perhaps Dr. Ruth but I don't recall for sure, who talked about this and pointed out that if, after sex, one's best buddy called with 50-line seats for the big game, one probably would be able to wake up and roll out of bed, so snuggling for a few minutes is not totally unreasonable
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Old 08-26-2002, 09:05 AM   #57
opherdonchin
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Quote:
snuggling for a few minutes is not totally unreasonable
I thought snuggling afterwards was the main reason we do all that sweaty, sticky stuff in the first place!

Maybe what's wrong with my AiKiDo is that there is not enough snuggling afterwards!

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-26-2002, 09:24 AM   #58
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, preadtors know their victims by their fear. Healthy relationships are between equals. Look at your own part of the dance, and be on the look-out for their part.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-26-2002, 09:29 AM   #59
mike lee
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this is just a test

Sometimes I like taking on the role of a preditor to see how people react. I especially admire the one in every thousand individuals that handle such advances with aplomb.
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Old 08-26-2002, 10:53 AM   #60
guest1234
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Whoa, Opher! It's going to be difficult to attack you without laughing now...

You are taking all the fun out of "making disagreable an artform"...now I'm going to have to go to that dojo south of here if I want to beat up anyone...

jeesh, what's an viscious geen-eyed devil to do...
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Old 08-26-2002, 10:58 AM   #61
opherdonchin
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Isn't that the whole idea of AiKiDo, though: being difficult to attack not because you are threatening or scary but because you smile and make them laugh!
Quote:
Colleen wrote:
So I did myself (and the male half of the population) a favor
This is the one that got me laughing (although I know you meant it seriously). I wsa trying to decide whether I should thank you or protest that this is the sort of favor we don't need! (Then I thought better of it because I didn't want to undermine your point which was very well taken.)

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-26-2002, 12:06 PM   #62
Chocolateuke
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Wow, big topic glad im young to learn all this in advance thx guys!

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 08-26-2002, 12:11 PM   #63
guest1234
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Uh Oh. Dallas, we were just joking. You came from under a cabbage plant, really.
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Old 08-27-2002, 12:30 AM   #64
Deb Fisher
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Opher wrote:

"Maybe what's wrong with my AiKiDo is that there is not enough snuggling afterwards!"

Woo hoo!

Deb

Deb Fisher
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Old 08-27-2002, 12:39 AM   #65
"unreg"
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Maybe what's wrong with my AiKiDo is that there is not enough snuggling afterwards!
That's why you have to get your significant other involved!
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Old 08-27-2002, 04:54 AM   #66
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Unhappy

Wow. When I first started Aikido I was concerned that most Aikidoka were boring lifeless people without anything better to do than attempt to throw others around. I've been practicing for about a year now, and have been in denial of my initial thoughts. From reading this thread (and others), its seems apparently obvious that my initial assuption was correct. Have fun in your strange wanna be real world people. I quit this suppsosedly "spiritual enlightening military self defense". The majority of you are hippocrates. I've learned that it is much easier to just kick an attacker in the balls than in is to avoid an attack (trust me I know from physical experince). There is a life to live out there. Live it.

ex-wanna be aikidoka
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Old 08-27-2002, 05:02 AM   #67
mike lee
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lost in spite

Glad you finally found your way OUT!

P.S. FYI: Hippocrates
SYLLABICATION: HipĚpocĚraĚtes
VARIANTS: Called "the Father of Medicine."
DATES: 460?--377? B.C.
Greek physician who laid the foundations of scientific medicine by freeing medical study from the constraints of philosophical speculation and superstition. He is traditionally but inaccurately considered the author of the Hippocratic oath.

Last edited by mike lee : 08-27-2002 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 08-27-2002, 07:56 AM   #68
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
() wrote:
Wow. When I first started Aikido I was concerned that most Aikidoka were boring lifeless people without anything better to do than attempt to throw others around. I've been practicing for about a year now, and have been in denial of my initial thoughts. From reading this thread (and others), its seems apparently obvious that my initial assuption was correct. Have fun in your strange wanna be real world people. I quit this suppsosedly "spiritual enlightening military self defense". The majority of you are hippocrates. I've learned that it is much easier to just kick an attacker in the balls than in is to avoid an attack (trust me I know from physical experince). There is a life to live out there. Live it.

ex-wanna be aikidoka
Oh, terrible; we lost another exciting prospect.

Oh, well, anyone who would write such an insulting post (in a thread that had nothing to do with it anyway) without the courage to sign his name doesn't belong in Aikido anyway.

Dave

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 08-27-2002, 08:22 AM   #69
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Quote:
Have fun in your strange wanna be real world people. I quit this suppsosedly "spiritual enlightening military self defense".
I'd say judging a budo art from what you read on a discussion forum is not a very good idea at all... I must say I am more troubled over those who get so eager to start from what they read, than those who are put off.

Regards

Hanna
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Old 08-27-2002, 10:03 AM   #70
guest1234
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Obviously a case of not enough snuggling.
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Old 08-27-2002, 10:57 AM   #71
Erik
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Quote:
() wrote:
The majority of you are hippocrates. I've learned that it is much easier to just kick an attacker in the balls than in is to avoid an attack (trust me I know from physical experince).
Damn it man, it's 'hypocrites'.
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Old 08-27-2002, 11:16 AM   #72
mike lee
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oh, my balls!

Maybe she thought that we were all descendants of a Greek physician.
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Old 08-27-2002, 02:21 PM   #73
BC
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Everybody sing along, whereever you are!

"Na na na na

Na na na na

Hey hey hey

Goodbye!"


Robert Cronin
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Old 08-27-2002, 03:59 PM   #74
shihonage
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Quote:
() wrote:
I've learned that it is much easier to just kick an attacker in the balls than in is to avoid an attack (trust me I know from physical experince).
What if it's a she ?

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Old 08-27-2002, 11:32 PM   #75
opherdonchin
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All right, let's get back on track here (although I admit that I'm REALLY curious what it was about these posts that turned anonymous off so much. If the person is still around, perhaps they would tell us.):

This is an issue that I'm really interested in. Can you tell?

No Senseis volunteered stories or shared ideas about how they dealt with situation of falling in love with students, but I can sort of understand that.

Here's another question about this issue that interests me: given that AiKiDo can be an exciting physical or even sexual experience for some people (as they said on this thread), what's the appropriate way to deal with situations where those feelings might be getting in the way. In Contact Improv, it's acceptable to stop dancing with someone for any reason without explanation. Perhaps you feel attracted and it embarasses you; perhaps you feel that your partner is attracted and that is uncomfortable or threatening to you; perhaps it has nothing to do with that, and you just feel like stopping. I don't think we have the same ethos in AiKiDo. Maybe that's the sort of thing you just have to deal with. There are lots of reasons why you might not particularly enjoy working with someone, and this is just one of them. If it gets really bad, you try to avoid them without being blatant, but otherwise you figure it's part of the training.

Anybody have any other thoughts on the matter?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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