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Old 01-29-2015, 08:39 AM   #26
David Norton
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

I'll have to look, but as I recall (I haven't done the 31 in years), Saito's 31-move kata is very different than Tohei's 21-move kata.
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:50 AM   #27
Janet Rosen
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

Quote:
David Norton wrote: View Post
I'll have to look, but as I recall (I haven't done the 31 in years), Saito's 31-move kata is very different than Tohei's 21-move kata.
Quite different. We do both of them in every class :-)
Obviously, all aikiweapons include tsuki, yokomen strike, shome strike, etc... but the sequences, pacing and focus are different.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-29-2015, 11:37 AM   #28
phitruong
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

Quote:
David Norton wrote: View Post
I'll have to look, but as I recall (I haven't done the 31 in years), Saito's 31-move kata is very different than Tohei's 21-move kata.
by 10 moves?

i wondered if there is a 28 1/2 moves kata. i wondered if these teachers came up with the counts or they just twirled around and let their students figure out the counts. and if their students figured out the counts, i wondered what the conversations were like.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-29-2015, 02:11 PM   #29
Janet Rosen
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
by 10 moves?

i wondered if there is a 28 1/2 moves kata. i wondered if these teachers came up with the counts or they just twirled around and let their students figure out the counts. and if their students figured out the counts, i wondered what the conversations were like.
In all seriousness (sorry!) while in the 31 count there are counted striking down movements, in the 22 there are a couple of "jo flips" that really are downward strikes but are not in the count. When I teach newbies I always call them as a reminder to do them but not to "count" them. :-p

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-29-2015, 04:01 PM   #30
Chris Li
 
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
by 10 moves?

i wondered if there is a 28 1/2 moves kata. i wondered if these teachers came up with the counts or they just twirled around and let their students figure out the counts. and if their students figured out the counts, i wondered what the conversations were like.
Morihei Ueshiba never counted. If he found you counting then you would get scolded. The students (Saito, Tohei, et al) couldn't figure out how to remember or teach the jo movements without counting and made up the counts to what they saw (or thought they saw) Morihei Ueshiba doing (obviously, they did this when he wasn't around, to avoid getting scoldings). Saito (at least) went through several different numbers before settling on "31".

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-30-2015, 04:13 AM   #31
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Morihei Ueshiba never counted. If he found you counting then you would get scolded. The students (Saito, Tohei, et al) couldn't figure out how to remember or teach the jo movements without counting and made up the counts to what they saw (or thought they saw) Morihei Ueshiba doing (obviously, they did this when he wasn't around, to avoid getting scoldings). Saito (at least) went through several different numbers before settling on "31".

Best,

Chris
Very interesting, can you provide the sources for this information?

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Old 01-30-2015, 05:32 AM   #32
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

"O-Sensei would get angry if we practiced in a one-two-three manner. "
Saito Sensei

I get the impression Osensei really did not want people to steal what he believed he was passing on from the kami. He at least named sets of movements (ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo... ichi no tachi, ni no tachi, san no tachi... etc).

Regards

Carl
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Old 01-30-2015, 05:39 AM   #33
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

That's a great interview - thanks
Quote:
O-Sensei would get angry if we practiced in a one-two-three manner. His way of teaching might be good for private instruction but when you have to teach 30 or 40 students all together the one-two-three method is the only one effective. This was why I gave each of the suburi movements a number. Later this developed into the 31-movement jo kata. In later years I was visited by one of the alumni from that period. I think he was a student of Miyagi Education University. He said, "Sensei, wasn't it the 24-movement jo kata?". I replied "Now we have 31!" (Laughter). In those days we had 24 movements. Perhaps we included some of the jo movements in hayagaeshi and this added up to 24 movements. However, this was not easy enough to learn and so I divided the movements into 31. People came to call it the "31-movement jo kata" without my realizing it.

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Old 01-30-2015, 08:33 AM   #34
Cliff Judge
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
"O-Sensei would get angry if we practiced in a one-two-three manner. "
Saito Sensei

I get the impression Osensei really did not want people to steal what he believed he was passing on from the kami. He at least named sets of movements (ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo... ichi no tachi, ni no tachi, san no tachi... etc).

Regards

Carl
That makes it sound like he didn't want people to learn things, which implies that he did not view himself as teaching a martial art. if you are a teacher trying to disseminate or spread something, how could you scold people for practicing?

I don't quite think that's it, but I do wrestle with this concept a lot in my own Aikido life.

I think it is more that Osensei didn't want his art formalized or systematized.

Which has been problematic for Aikidoka within Japanese society and without, but at least leaves us with a lineage of sorts...
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:43 AM   #35
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

We have moved away from a fixed kata into short sets of movement made up on the spot and then practiced and forgotten.

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Old 01-30-2015, 03:59 PM   #36
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
We have moved away from a fixed kata into short sets of movement made up on the spot and then practiced and forgotten.
Like this ?

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Old 01-31-2015, 08:15 AM   #37
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
That makes it sound like he didn't want people to learn things, which implies that he did not view himself as teaching a martial art. if you are a teacher trying to disseminate or spread something, how could you scold people for practicing?
Hello Cliff,

You can find this teaching paradigm throughout Japan's traditional arts. The onus is on the student to steal. It gives the teacher a great deal of control over what secrets are passed on.

While I doubt the founder was as cagy about teaching the abacus, he regarded the training methods of his aikido as divine. I can easily imagine him getting angry at people overtly capturing them in easily transmissible forms that any Tom, Dick or Harry could learn, without the benefit of listening to his lectures to understand the spirit in which they should be done and their purpose.

I think the founder knew that it would happen anyway, but he probably also knew that there would be various interpretations, with only his discourses on the spiritual matters behind them dictated and nailed down in his own words. Additionally, there can be pitfalls in those "easily transmissible" forms, especially without knowledge of the purpose behind them.

Regards

Carl
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Old 02-23-2015, 11:03 AM   #38
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

I would like to add that Saito Sensei's methodical teaching form was accepted by O-Sensei at that time.
Saito Sensei also taught weapons for the last 15 minutes of his Sunday class at Hombu Dojo, also with O-Sensei's approval. So Carl's point about O-Sensei teaching ( or not teaching!) in the traditional way was O-Sensei doing things his way. But he did approve of the didactic way of teaching that Saito Sensei stood for, too.
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Old 02-24-2015, 07:11 PM   #39
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata

Thanks for the addition Ethan Sensei.

It is easy to forget that Saito Sensei's teaching style evolved under the founder's direct scrutiny in a small dojo.
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