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Old 07-21-2014, 11:18 AM   #76
PeterR
 
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm not claiming that aikido is a complete self-defense system, remember? Simply that its supposed lack of usefulness is overstated, most often by proponents of arts that have glaring flaws of their own.
Sure and proponents usually without any great experience in what they are proponing. Or perhaps its their enthusiasm talking.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-21-2014, 11:56 AM   #77
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
I think we are all dancing on the head of a pin here.
Aikido (in whatever form) clearly works for some and not others and is a self-defence based system; no matter what twist and turns it has taken since.
Everyone's experience differs - lets just leave it at that.
Let's play a whotif game.

What if O Sensei did not understand "self-defense" as we understand it? What if the idea of defending oneself from an attack was foreign to O Sensei? What if O Sensei believed that moving with aiki-body meant that one would never be vulnerable to attack?

I am not sure what O Sensei spke about and what we are talking about (Western "self-defense") are the same. I think talking to O Sensei about "self-defense" would have been an awkward conversation - I find it difficult to believe he could even relate to such a topic... I can just hear O Sensei now..."Wait, you mean that you would let someone attack you, and you want to know what I would do to the attacker? I would kill him when he thought about attacking me; how's that? Oh, not PC, huh? Well, I would move with a yin and yang and snuff out his intent in a flash! How's that? I though the hippies would like the yin and yang stuff..." .

No, I think those buzzwords came about later for the propaganda machine. Or poor translation. Or both. I think aikido is a body system that dis-empowers others to affect you. I think somewhere along the way, we confused our partner's inability to affect us with the ability to affect our partner. Is that really self-defense? In a manner of speaking. Is that the self-defense that we see popularized in the US? Nope.

In any case, letting someone "attack" you first does not make for self-defense.

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Old 07-21-2014, 11:59 AM   #78
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Yet those are what people have in mind when they are looking for "better" self-defense than aikido.
People have very weird things on their minds. But I didn't put them there, so it is not my fault.

Quote:
Well, I spent the entire weekend at a jo seminar, so there's that... Body language and environmental awareness are part of any martial art, and are particularly emphasized in our multi-attacker practice
.

I think I've seen you on the mat on video. Is this you?

Quote:
I'm not claiming that aikido is a complete self-defense system, remember? Simply that its supposed lack of usefulness is overstated, most often by proponents of arts that have glaring flaws of their own.
Well, I think its usefulness is overstated, most often by people who, fortunately, don't know nor need to know what self defense is about.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 07-21-2014 at 12:03 PM.

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Old 07-21-2014, 12:07 PM   #79
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Re: A question of style

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Let's play a whotif game.

What if O Sensei did not understand "self-defense" as we understand it?
I think I'm going to agree with you.

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Old 07-21-2014, 02:13 PM   #80
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Re: A question of style

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Kenneth King wrote: View Post
Why waste his time when you've already made up your mind on the matter?

There also seems to be some woefully uninformed opinions of o sensei in this thread, the ignorance is astounding.
This is discussion forum, I presented already my arguments with a list of detailed reasons why aikido can't be considered as self defense system. So if somebody claims a contrary and NOT presenting any counter arguments, I was curious, may be his practice is making evidence of his thesis...otherwise his statement has no value and can't be taken seriously.

Nagababa

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Old 07-21-2014, 02:21 PM   #81
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Re: A question of style

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Let's not be hypocritical. A child can tell you what we do in a dojo. Regardless of the style - we practice self-defense in pairs. One person attacks and the other defends himself. Nothing else. No other physical activity shows self-defence better. Just like in a fairy tale by H.Ch. Andersen - 'The Emperor is naked'. .
Maciek, I must say your definition of self defense is on the level of 5 years old kid

Nagababa

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Old 07-21-2014, 05:59 PM   #82
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Re: A question of style

Take this with a Grain of Salt - as I am a current BJJ'er I want to point out that it is a sport. Putting someone in your guard for example might not be the soundest choice of self defense though something as obvious as a rear naked choke might be for example. I do agree that there are arts out there far better than Aikido for self defense ( Krav Maga, Judo, Thai boxing, Kickboxing and so on).

However ... I am a firm believer that the best "style" of martial arts for self defense is the one you enjoy doing and putting the most time in ... even if it is something like Yang Style Tai Chi.YMMV. Taking up Muay Thai for self defense does not work effectively if you never go to class because you do not like getting punched in the face. You wont learn anything there either.

Respectfully

Chris

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Old 07-22-2014, 01:11 AM   #83
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Re: A question of style

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Glad to hear that but that doesn't make aikido a self defense sysem itself.
And it certainly doesn't mean that it isn't....can go back and forth but at the end if the day you have your view and I certainly have mine.
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Old 07-22-2014, 01:15 AM   #84
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Re: A question of style

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
This is discussion forum, I presented already my arguments with a list of detailed reasons why aikido can't be considered as self defense system. So if somebody claims a contrary and NOT presenting any counter arguments, I was curious, may be his practice is making evidence of his thesis...otherwise his statement has no value and can't be taken seriously.
Dude you're thinking way too hard on this one.

self-defense[ self-di-fens, self- ]
noun
1. the act of defending one's person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant: the art of self-defense.

sys·tem
ˈsistəm/Submit
noun
2. a set of principles or procedures according to which something is done; an organized scheme or method.

By definition it is a self defense system. So then, I assuming you are questioning the effectiveness of what Aikido has evolved into? If so I agree. However, what is commonly practiced now is a far cry from what O Sensei was doing.

Every day, life is training, every day, budo is life
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:14 AM   #85
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
we practice self-defense in pairs. One person attacks and the other defends himself. Nothing else.
In his Young years Ueshiba had great interest to learn how to fight, but it's this way of thinking in terms of attackers and defenders that he wanted to overcome.

But aikido never was an art in which one was the attacker and one was the defender, it was never a passive way of acting.
There were shite and uke, but shite was not a defender, he was the one who executed an aiki-action on uke, in a positve (yang) or in a negative (yin) way. It was not like today, where shite (nage) is waiting for an attack.
It was a complete figting system, not a modern self-defense system.
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Old 07-22-2014, 05:21 AM   #86
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
In his Young years Ueshiba had great interest to learn how to fight, but it's this way of thinking in terms of attackers and defenders that he wanted to overcome.

But aikido never was an art in which one was the attacker and one was the defender, it was never a passive way of acting.
There were shite and uke, but shite was not a defender, he was the one who executed an aiki-action on uke, in a positve (yang) or in a negative (yin) way. It was not like today, where shite (nage) is waiting for an attack.
It was a complete figting system, not a modern self-defense system.
Dear Markus,
While I accept your view that some aikidoka stand waiting for an attack[passive behaviour ??] the many shihan I have met over the years could hardly be called passive or waiting to be attacked.In fact in most cases the minute you even touched them you were usually neutralised and pinned/thrown.This was specially true in weapons work.Tamura Sensei for example controlled Ukes by his useof timing , dominance ,positioning etc.Aikido as expressed by Tada Sensei, Saito Sensei, ShibataSensei , SekiyaSensei ,Sugano Sensei , Chiba Sensei and many more could not be described as passive.No standing about waiting for an attack, anything but.Watch early vids of Tada/Arikawa etc.Do they look passive?I think not.Cheers, Joe
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Old 07-22-2014, 05:53 AM   #87
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Re: A question of style

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
No standing about waiting for an attack, anything but.Watch early vids of Tada/Arikawa etc.Do they look passive?
No they don't, and that's what I wanted to say.
My teacher trained with Tada, Noro, Arikawa and the other uchideshis when he was young, and
to attack him requieres alertness every time.

But until people get this skills of using timing, dominance and positioning, most of them train in passive way. The use of atemi, as it's described in tadashi abe senseis book for example, is taught seldom.
Here you can see that almost every action was initiated by a strike to ukes face. I think in the majority of the dojos this is not common practice any more.

But to look passive, or to be it are different things, and that is the reason for misunderstandings.
It's also possible to "let" the other one strike, but this is a decision to let him do that, although it might look like waiting for the attack. It's another state of mind.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:51 AM   #88
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
. The use of atemi, as it's described in tadashi abe senseis book for example, is taught seldom
There shall be much wailing and gnashing of teeth if headbutting from the clinch becames accepted again as legitimate aikido waza.

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Old 07-22-2014, 07:38 AM   #89
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Re: A question of style

Here is a thought. Since you have been in training in Aikido has your awareness and perception been effected?
Do you think you are better able to defend yourself than when you started?

I will start.

Yes, I am very aware of my surroundings at all times. I am better able to defend myself. I don't entertain every slight I am invited to and I am able to choose my responses.

I stay out of things that are not my business and I don't hang around people or places that are toxic.

I am much safer than before I started training.

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Old 07-22-2014, 09:06 AM   #90
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Re: A question of style

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
There shall be much wailing and gnashing of teeth if headbutting from the clinch becames accepted again as legitimate aikido waza.
Might be that in the last sixty years the meaning of "la victoire par la paix" has changed.

But It is arguable that aikido at that early period raised a claim to be an effective self defense system.
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:30 AM   #91
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Re: A question of style

It is pretty much a given that "self defense" as we argue about the term is a relatively recent invention. Situational awareness, avoidance, all are pretty modern as a discussion item.

People did not initially seek out Ueshiba for his philosophical outpourings but for his fighting techniques. They felt he had something to teach them in that regard. They wanted to learn techniques for any number of reasons but I am sure there was the fantasy of using those against an aggressor - in other words self defense. There are enough stories of the techniques proving useful and of Ueshiba being pleased that they were to negate the point that he was not interested in this aspect.

Last edited by PeterR : 07-22-2014 at 09:34 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:02 AM   #92
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Re: A question of style

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Anthony McCarra wrote: View Post
Okay, I get it.
Hard is soft as soft is hard as neither is either as I am he as you are he as you are me as we are all together....
Now that we've gotten the metaphysics out the way, I would appreciate a straightforward answer to a straightforward question.
Which of these two styles is better for strictly self-defense pruposes?
1. Iwama Ryu
2. A style (not sure of the name) heavily influenced by the Vanadis Dojo of Stockholm Sweden under Jan Nevelius.

Thanks,
Ramon
Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Depends entirely on the individual instructor. I'm sorry, but that really is the answer.
YUP
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Old 07-22-2014, 11:05 AM   #93
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Re: A question of style

I can't believe that this argument, with a lot of the same players, is still happening. It's like "Groundhog Day". But, hey, I posted, so I guess I'm part of the cast.

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 07-22-2014 at 11:07 AM.

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Old 07-22-2014, 12:54 PM   #94
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Here is a thought. Since you have been in training in Aikido has your awareness and perception been effected?
Do you think you are better able to defend yourself than when you started?
Yeah, totally and unequivocally. Aikido training has broadened my awareness, improved my fitness level and allowed me to maintain it as I age, enabled me to tap into a source of strength I didn't know existed until I started training and provided me with a set of tools that I can use to meet aggression.

Ron

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Old 07-22-2014, 01:10 PM   #95
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Smile Re: A question of style

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Yeah, totally and unequivocally. Aikido training has broadened my awareness, improved my fitness level and allowed me to maintain it as I age, enabled me to tap into a source of strength I didn't know existed until I started training and provided me with a set of tools that I can use to meet aggression.

Ron
Hi Ron,
Is one of the tools you use to meet aggression a baseball bat by any chance??Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-22-2014, 01:20 PM   #96
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Re: A question of style

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I'd very interested to see your experience aikido as a self defence - any video to back up your words?
Dear Szczepan,
I doubt if anybody on this forum would have a video camera secreted on their person in anticipation of having a rumble with some unruly hooligan.On the other hand maybe some guys do
a Charles Bronson death wish thingy and film themselves knocking crap out of poor old delinquents, then going home to savour the filmed mayhem on the tv , while enjoying a pina colada.I am afraid I do not have my hd vid camera around much other than to record the odd snippet of holiday material-last used in Tokyo/Nagasaki/ South Korea recently. Cheers, Joe
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Old 07-22-2014, 01:38 PM   #97
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Re: A question of style

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Ron,
Is one of the tools you use to meet aggression a baseball bat by any chance??Cheers, Joe.
If the situation warrants Joe. Definitely that and anything else that may come to hand. All wielded with strict adherence to mind/body coordination of course.

Ron

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Old 07-22-2014, 02:11 PM   #98
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: A question of style

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
There are enough stories of the techniques proving useful and of Ueshiba being pleased that they were to negate the point that he was not interested in this aspect.
Sure, as they are stories of Ueshiba scolding their students for getting into fights.

So why not analyze the art itself , its techniques, tactics, strategies, trainming methods.... instead of looking into what Ueshiba (or the kami possessing him at the moment) is said to have said.

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Old 07-22-2014, 02:53 PM   #99
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sure, as they are stories of Ueshiba scolding their students for getting into fights.

So why not analyze the art itself , its techniques, tactics, strategies, trainming methods.... instead of looking into what Ueshiba (or the kami possessing him at the moment) is said to have said.
All the time. What makes you think I don't. In fact - the gist of your posts is the underlying presumption that no one but yourself as any insight into the matter.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-23-2014, 10:32 AM   #100
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Szczepan,
I doubt if anybody on this forum would have a video camera secreted on their person in anticipation of having a rumble with some unruly hooligan.On the other hand maybe some guys do
a Charles Bronson death wish thingy and film themselves knocking crap out of poor old delinquents, then going home to savour the filmed mayhem on the tv , while enjoying a pina colada.I am afraid I do not have my hd vid camera around much other than to record the odd snippet of holiday material-last used in Tokyo/Nagasaki/ South Korea recently. Cheers, Joe
Hi Joe,
I try to express myself better -- to claim that aikido is self-defense system it is not enough here on the forum to just say it. If you want to be credible, you need to back up your words with serious arguments (technical details of the application aikido technique), or video. I didn't ask for aikido self-defense video from the street -- I understand it is difficult. What I had in mind is a video from the dojo where we can see how actually someone practices in preparation for self-defense situation. I was interested by the methodology used in such practice, as I've never seen it in my short life.

I strongly suspect that people who claim teaching aikido as self-defense are using similar teaching approach as you can find here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...71667212,d.aWw

because in this video also, following ken king definition " one's person is physically attacked, counters blows or overcoming an assailant: "

cheers

Nagababa

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