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Old 07-15-2014, 11:07 AM   #1
Ramon
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A question of style

Okay, I get it.
Hard is soft as soft is hard as neither is either as I am he as you are he as you are me as we are all together....
Now that we've gotten the metaphysics out the way, I would appreciate a straightforward answer to a straightforward question.
Which of these two styles is better for strictly self-defense pruposes?
1. Iwama Ryu
2. A style (not sure of the name) heavily influenced by the Vanadis Dojo of Stockholm Sweden under Jan Nevelius.

Thanks,
Ramon
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:41 AM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: A question of style

Depends entirely on the individual instructor. I'm sorry, but that really is the answer.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:53 AM   #3
NagaBaba
 
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Anthony McCarra wrote: View Post
Okay, I get it.
Hard is soft as soft is hard as neither is either as I am he as you are he as you are me as we are all together....
Now that we've gotten the metaphysics out the way, I would appreciate a straightforward answer to a straightforward question.
Which of these two styles is better for strictly self-defense pruposes?
1. Iwama Ryu
2. A style (not sure of the name) heavily influenced by the Vanadis Dojo of Stockholm Sweden under Jan Nevelius.

Thanks,
Ramon
Aikido was not created for self-defense purposes. You should search another activity to achieve this goal.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-15-2014, 12:00 PM   #4
philipsmith
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Aikido was not created for self-defense purposes. You should search another activity to achieve this goal.
Really?

Surely the fundamental mechanical purpose of any martial art is self-defence/combat.

Of course Aikido evolves from this basic concept but that's where it starts
(Apologies for the thread drift)

Style doesn't matter - instructor and students attitude does
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Old 07-15-2014, 12:33 PM   #5
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
Really?

Surely the fundamental mechanical purpose of any martial art is self-defence/combat.

Of course Aikido evolves from this basic concept but that's where it starts
(Apologies for the thread drift)

Style doesn't matter - instructor and students attitude does
Really.
O sensei changed basic mechanics of daito ryu techniques by creating multiple openings to allow developing his spiritual concepts. That's one reason.

Another one, self defense/combat implies real skills in street fighting. No aikido style teach fighting any nature, not even sparring (which should be first step to get real skills in fighting against countering opponent, second would be go to the street and get real fight to test your skills…)

Nagababa

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Old 07-15-2014, 01:25 PM   #6
Cliff Judge
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Really.
O sensei changed basic mechanics of daito ryu techniques by creating multiple openings to allow developing his spiritual concepts. That's one reason.

Another one, self defense/combat implies real skills in street fighting. No aikido style teach fighting any nature, not even sparring (which should be first step to get real skills in fighting against countering opponent, second would be go to the street and get real fight to test your skills…)
Well, Daito ryu did not teach fighting either.
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Old 07-15-2014, 02:18 PM   #7
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Anthony McCarra wrote: View Post
... style (not sure of the name) heavily influenced by the Vanadis Dojo of Stockholm Sweden under Jan Nevelius.
Jan is shihan of the aikikai and a student of Endō Seishiro sensei. There is no "extra style": It's simply aikikai.
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Old 07-15-2014, 02:51 PM   #8
kewms
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Re: A question of style

What sort of self-defense situation(s) do you have in mind?

Real world scenarios range from drunk family members all the way up to mentally ill people with assault rifles. Each situation carries different risks and demands different strategies, so the question is pointless unless you tell us what you're defending against.

Katherine
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Old 07-15-2014, 02:51 PM   #9
Ramon
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Re: A question of style

I hope Nagababa is wrong. Otherwise, why not just take up Ballroom Dancing?
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:15 PM   #10
reza.n
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Re: A question of style

I think it depends on so many factors.
You asked a "logical" question and you want a "logical" answer, but the real answer must be based on "psychological" basis. All those situations that you have in your mind are "psychological" related things. mix the logical and psychological aspects and find the proper stance.
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:43 PM   #11
Ramon
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Re: A question of style

You know, this is exactly what I thought would happen. People who've never had a belligerent, red-faced jerk in their face threatening to take their head off. If you are one of these people, please don't bother responding. I've never had a problem dealing with drunk friends or family members, and spare me the condescending scenarios about psychos with assault rifles. I suspect no marial art can stop a bullet. I'll ask the question again? Iwama Ryu or Aikikai for self-defense--and only people who know what physical violence is like need reply.
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:54 PM   #12
kewms
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Re: A question of style

I think it's pretty insulting to assume that people you've never met don't know anything just because their responses don't conform to your stereotypes.

A friend of mine was murdered by a drunk family member. Assuming that such are easy to deal with demonstrates just how little *you* know about violence.

Even if we limit ourselves to belligerent jerks, the answer isn't so easy. Are there witnesses? Does he have friends? A weapon?

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 07-15-2014 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:07 PM   #13
Ramon
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Re: A question of style

Then why in God's name did you say that "real world scenarios range from drunken family members
to mentally ill people with assault rifles"? It is clear that you were implying a range with drunken family members being on the low-end of the violence spectrum.
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:13 PM   #14
Michael Hackett
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Re: A question of style

Anthony,

Now that you've set certain parameters to your question, here's a few thoughts:

Janet was absolutely right - your ability to learn self-defense DOES depend on the teacher and the dojo. It really doesn't matter what art you study, or what style of a particular art. The dojo is the actual key to your quest. If you choose a "dancing hall" type of dojo, you will learn dancing and very little self-defense.

Any "style" of aikido will provide you with a variety of skills for self-defense, but generally speaking, it will take you a long time to become proficient and capable. That is why Robert Koga Sensei took from the aikido curriculum years ago to create what he called "Practical Aikido" and developed what has become the foundation of modern police defensive tactics. The late Koga Sensei understood that aikido worked just fine for those who practiced regularly, but for those who needed to learn something now and apply it, it wasn't the best course of study. Essentially he took all the subtle movement out of the art and made it very simple, direct, and harsh.

So, if you want to be effective at protecting yourself from the proverbial red-faced jerk, plan on training regularly for a considerable period of time with an instructor who is inclined to teach in that direction.

In most dojo you will learn about situational awareness and that the best course of action is to be somewhere other than where the fight is going to take place.

You also need to learn the laws of self-defense for your area. They differ from state to state and what is acceptable in one location is criminal conduct in another. Maybe your instructor will be up to speed on the laws of NOLA, and maybe he won't. It would be in your interest to actually find out or you could find yourself in serious legal trouble.

You specifically asked whether Iwama or Aikikai style is best for self-defense and the answer is truly they are both excellent and they are both worthless for street fighting kinds of situations. I'm confident that you won't be satisfied with this answer, but I believe I've given you an accurate picture, and I did it with far more words than Janet did. Please don't discount the contributors here lightly - some of them know what they are talking about. Yeah, Janet is a Left Coast gal, but she has been doing the art for years, comes from a violent place in the east and has been working with violent and sometimes mentally ill people for a career. She was telling you straight, as I hope I have.

Good luck with your training, whatever you choose.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:17 PM   #15
kewms
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Anthony McCarra wrote: View Post
Then why in God's name did you say that "real world scenarios range from drunken family members
to mentally ill people with assault rifles"? It is clear that you were implying a range with drunken family members being on the low-end of the violence spectrum.
See, that's my point, which you still seem to be missing. "Real self defense" is a lot more complicated than some random bozo in a bar, and so there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

Katherine
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:32 PM   #16
Ramon
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Re: A question of style

Michael,

I had no problem with Janet's response, so if you're still out there, Janet, my remarks were not intended toward you or any others who responded courteously.
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:37 PM   #17
Ramon
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Re: A question of style

Yeah, Ok. Thanks for your input.
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:47 PM   #18
tenshinaikidoka
 
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Re: A question of style

I'd say it completely depends on the instructor and what the atmosphere of the dojo is. Bottom line is go to a dojo and watch how they do things. There is no good answer regarding a "style", every teacher has a different interpretation on how to apply things. Yoshinkan is a lot more martial and may be the option your looking for. I wish you the best.
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:47 PM   #19
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: A question of style

Jan is very competent about using aikidō for self defence. And Vanadis dōjō provides people to really work on that. Also there are people who teach Daitō ryū and Jujutsu to practice with.

Jan does not teach aikidō as a means of self defence.

The question "wich style, i.e. iwama ryū or aikikai ..." doesn't make any sense to me.
It's about the experience of the teacher, about what and how he decides to teach.

But ...
... most of all it is about my/our perception of life. And about developping our personality.
At least that is my experience. And I think there is a whole lot to learn about these two aspects in the specific aikikai dōjō in your town, you ar talking about.
But I think, you might not find there, what you are looking for.
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Old 07-16-2014, 12:38 AM   #20
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Iwama Ryu or Aikikai for self-defense--and only people who know what physical violence is like need reply.
Hello

Quote:
Anthony McCarra wrote: View Post
, I would appreciate a straightforward answer to a straightforward question.
Which of these two styles is better for strictly self-defense pruposes?
1. Iwama Ryu
2. A style (not sure of the name) heavily influenced by the Vanadis Dojo of Stockholm Sweden under Jan Nevelius.

Thanks,
Ramon
The straightforward answer: Iwama style.

Anyway, both styles are very poor as self defense methods. If you are looking for self defense skills, Aikido (doesn't matter which style) is the wrong place to go.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 07-16-2014 at 12:40 AM.

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Old 07-16-2014, 02:26 AM   #21
sakumeikan
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hello

The straightforward answer: Iwama style.

Anyway, both styles are very poor as self defense methods. If you are looking for self defense skills, Aikido (doesn't matter which style) is the wrong place to go.
Dear Demetrio,
Why dont the people asking questions about styles realise the following truths?It is not about styles its about the ability/attitude/fighting spirit of the person.Any guy I ever met who could handle themselves had determination, focus,were mentally tough and prepared for battle[ no plastic warriors].Some trained in judo, karate/aikido, some were natural tough nuts.No system can turn a rabbit into a lion. Even after years of training some people will never be capable fighters.For these people the learning process should be focused on awareness training/defusing potential conflict etc.In fact this option is in many ways much better than resorting to fisticuffs.Better to have a clever quip to defuse tension than to receive a clip on the chin.A punch on the nose does nothing for ones classic profile, methinks.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-16-2014, 03:21 AM   #22
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Demetrio,
Why dont the people asking questions about styles realise the following truths?It is not about styles its about the ability/attitude/fighting spirit of the person.Any guy I ever met who could handle themselves had determination, focus,were mentally tough and prepared for battle[ no plastic warriors].Some trained in judo, karate/aikido, some were natural tough nuts.No system can turn a rabbit into a lion. Even after years of training some people will never be capable fighters.For these people the learning process should be focused on awareness training/defusing potential conflict etc.In fact this option is in many ways much better than resorting to fisticuffs.Better to have a clever quip to defuse tension than to receive a clip on the chin.A punch on the nose does nothing for ones classic profile, methinks.
Cheers, Joe.
You may call me big bunny.

Training can instill a mental and physical toughness but it has to be geared towards that and as for fighting that only way to get good at it is to do it. And as Joe mentioned natural ability has to be there to draw out.

For the same reason Joe mentioned I have to laugh at those who claim that karate, judo, TKD will produce better fighters. Doing any of those will not make you a fighter - that has to come from within and has to be tested and practiced constantly under conditions as close to fighting as you can get. Want that get yourself to a boxing gym and get into the ring, compete don't just spar.

No style of aikido including the more self defense orientated Yoshinkan offer that. Some dojo do a better job at instilling the mental and physical toughness than others but that is as far as it goes.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:07 AM   #23
Ramon
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Re: A question of style

Jeez, you people do have a firm grasp of the obvious. After all, who would have thought that natural ability, toughness, determination, etc. would be important attributes for a fighter?
The problem is no one was speaking of becoming a professional fighter or even vying for the title of Bad Bully on the Block. It was simply a question of the efficacy of Aikido as a means of self-defense, which doesn't seem to much to ask from an activity that calls itself a "martial" art. Then again, maybe you pay your monthly dues and attend classes to work on your clever quips.
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:47 AM   #24
PeterR
 
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Re: A question of style

Quote:
Anthony McCarra wrote: View Post
Jeez, you people do have a firm grasp of the obvious. After all, who would have thought that natural ability, toughness, determination, etc. would be important attributes for a fighter?
The problem is no one was speaking of becoming a professional fighter or even vying for the title of Bad Bully on the Block. It was simply a question of the efficacy of Aikido as a means of self-defense, which doesn't seem to much to ask from an activity that calls itself a "martial" art. Then again, maybe you pay your monthly dues and attend classes to work on your clever quips.
No we foolishly respond to a loaded question. Somehow I am sure you already know the answer.

Find a dojo that trains for self defense. That could easily be an aikido dojo or something else. People gave you good advice for what to look for - and yes its pretty obvious. Why again are you asking?
I mean if its so obvious.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:00 AM   #25
Ramon
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Re: A question of style

Apologies, PeterR
You're right.
I think I'll retire from this site before I make an even bigger fool of myself.
Best of luck
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