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Old 08-18-2014, 09:41 AM   #26
kewms
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
There are a lot of contradiction in this approach.

First, i.e. in judo competition, particularly at very high level, your adversary knows very well what are your favorite techniques(and they are 2 or 3 max) and despite of this fact, in 99% of cases, you are able to apply them successfully. So it is not a good excuse for aikidoka either, judo players fully resist and counter in every second.
From the little bit of judo I've watched, I would say "99%" is an extreme overestimate of the number of techniques successfully applied in high level competition.

Aikido is also not a competition. In a real situation, the attacker *won't* know what you are going to do.

Quote:
Second, if your partner in aikido always falling down, you don't know what opening is. It is not theoretical concept, perception of the opening must be developed physically with the eyes and with different senses of the body and mind, and not only understood intellectually from your lecture
Here, as in all discussions of this kind, it's necessary to consider the relative levels of the partners. Certainly yudansha should be practicing differently from beginners.

Katherine
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:03 AM   #27
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
From the little bit of judo I've watched, ...
Judoka tend to have a set of "few" strong techniques which they use repeatedly. When preparing for a competition, one makes it his business to know what those techniques are for the opponent.

Naturally different Judoka will have different "strong sets".

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Old 08-18-2014, 10:52 AM   #28
kewms
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Judoka tend to have a set of "few" strong techniques which they use repeatedly. When preparing for a competition, one makes it his business to know what those techniques are for the opponent.

Naturally different Judoka will have different "strong sets".
Right. And in what fraction of matches is one able to apply one's "strong" techniques successfully?

The few statistics I was able to find put the ippon rate at the 2012 olympics at about 30%. Presumably some additional fraction of attempts leads to partial success, meaning a score but not an ippon. Still, hardly the 99% success rate that was claimed.

(Note that a henka waza is NOT a successful application of the original technique. It's a sign that the defender's response created a different opening, which was sort of my original point.)

And, again, not a statistic that's relevant outside of competitive scenarios anyway.

Katherine
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:12 AM   #29
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

I am pretty sure you are mis-reading what Szczepan meant. I wont say 99% but if you watch these high level competitions (even quite ordinary shiai) once the judoka attempts the technique the success rate is very very high. The skill here is positioning, setting up and not committing to the technique when the time is not right. Part of the problem with Judo shiai is that it is often a waiting game - it is rarely technique on first contact.

Also I will say that no matter what the level of competition you still don't know what the Judoka will do. It could be one of his usually 3-5 known toku waza, it could be the new super secret one trained behind closed doors, or something that just was right for the situation based on years of experience. Any preparation is a matter of probabilities.

Finally - in Aikido practice we know exactly what the attacker is going to do or at least the expected attacks are very narrow. Not quite sure what was meant by "Aikido is also not a competition. In a real situation, the attacker *won't* know what you are going to do." but I do hope that it is not implying that aikido is superior in preparing you for the hypothetical real situation.

Last edited by PeterR : 08-18-2014 at 11:21 AM.

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Old 08-18-2014, 11:16 AM   #30
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Usually what you see when uke is falling by himself, nage is not getting any feedback in the moment of entering into the technique, because uke is anticipating nage movements very early and following hypothetical path of the technique without any threat from nage side.
In my opinion, to take ukemi in such a way that you perfectly fit into nage's technique such that they cannot tell the difference between what they are doing and what you are doing, is a tremensously high-level skill.

I truly believe that most people pick up a kinesthetic sense of whether they've taken uke's balance at a fairly early phase in training, probably before they intellecutally realize it. And from there it is pretty simply to tell whether they are falling away from, or resisting, or whether you've kept their balance and remain connected the whole time.
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:21 AM   #31
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I am pretty sure you are mis-reading what Szczepan meant. I wont say 99% but if you watch these high level competitions (even quite ordinary shiai) once the judoka attempts the technique the success rate is very very high. The skill here is positioning, setting up and not committing to the technique when the time is not right. Part of the problem with Judo shiai is that it is often a waiting game - it is rarely technique on first contact.
I think my point still stands. If our aikido training agreement allows uke to resist the technique, then surely it also allows uke to avoid being set up for it, too? If not, then I would expect a competent aikidoka to achieve a similarly high success rate, but then aren't we just back to kata practice?

Katherine
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:33 AM   #32
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I think my point still stands. If our aikido training agreement allows uke to resist the technique, then surely it also allows uke to avoid being set up for it, too? If not, then I would expect a competent aikidoka to achieve a similarly high success rate, but then aren't we just back to kata practice?
Sure and in that scenario nothing will happen. There is not one technique that I know of that can not be shut down if so desired. Even resistance training has very specific rules as to what uke can or can not do.

Kata does expect uke to provide a defined level of resistance from nothing to quite intense. What kata is is predictable.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:55 AM   #33
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

Funny how these threads evolve. In the Ueshiba clips for sure uke were diving for the old man but one would hope that lessons could still be learnt while looking closely. I personally did not see that much but that could just be me - I can be dense.

The issue becomes important if you go away from watching that clip with the impression that it is the best way to practice and develop high level skill. It is not - and I am sure a younger more robust Ueshiba would have agreed. Ukemi is a skill that goes far beyond making a pretty forward role. When to resist and how much is integral to the process.

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Old 08-18-2014, 12:41 PM   #34
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
From the little bit of judo I've watched, I would say "99%" is an extreme overestimate of the number of techniques successfully applied in high level competition.
Technique successfully applied doesn't mean always nippon it can be overthrow that leads to win some points.... How it is working, player try to apply his favorite techniques again and again, using preparatory strategies and tactics, ambushes and surprises...and finally, even when his opponent knows very well what is being prepared, he uses it successfully.

Why I wrote 99% - because really they only use these 2-3 favorite techniques(unless opponent make grave mistake so any technique is good, but is it exception), in many tournaments, they know them so well, they can do it perfectly.
We in aikido also are looking for perfection, hence common ground for comparing....

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Aikido is also not a competition. In a real situation, the attacker *won't* know what you are going to do. .

Katherine
Please don't bring such trivial argument again, it was already deeply discussed here. Unless you can share video where you teach how to defend yourself in 'real situation'

Nagababa

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Old 08-18-2014, 12:56 PM   #35
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
In my opinion, to take ukemi in such a way that you perfectly fit into nage's technique such that they cannot tell the difference between what they are doing and what you are doing, is a tremensously high-level skill.
But we are not practicing aikido to get high level of fitting into nage technique, isn't it? It is other way around, we are looking to execute perfect martial technique! Otherwise you can practice dancing and still learn to fit perfectly into your partner technique you will not have to do any aikido....

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I truly believe that most people pick up a kinesthetic sense of whether they've taken uke's balance at a fairly early phase in training, probably before they intellecutally realize it. And from there it is pretty simply to tell whether they are falling away from, or resisting, or whether you've kept their balance and remain connected the whole time.
What is my experience with aikidokas who don't use strong uke feedback, quickly they become full of themselves and very arrogant. And they always blame others when their techniques miserably fails.

Nagababa

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Old 08-18-2014, 01:15 PM   #36
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Funny how these threads evolve. In the Ueshiba clips for sure uke were diving for the old man but one would hope that lessons could still be learnt while looking closely. I personally did not see that much but that could just be me - I can be dense.

The issue becomes important if you go away from watching that clip with the impression that it is the best way to practice and develop high level skill. It is not - and I am sure a younger more robust Ueshiba would have agreed. Ukemi is a skill that goes far beyond making a pretty forward role. When to resist and how much is integral to the process.
This is very true but many prefer to keep their illusions...
I hear some teachers saying: 'lets start from the point where O sensei arrived'.....and the result is a real disaster. They simply copy external form of movements nage and uke without any deeper understanding and ask beginners to do it

Simple example: in this video O sensei is teaching quite basic aspect - rhythm of technique: uke is taking one step forward and IN THE SAME TIME nage also is taking one step forward. And a technique is over. Just like cutting with a sword. Very linear move, no dancing around.

Another aspect - timing - Nage is not starting to move unless uke is in full commitment and still nage is able to finish in the same tact. This fact allows nage to 'aspire" attack and move behind attacker back.

Of course all movement are big and exaggerated - O sensei wanted to make sure that even beginners can see these aspects. Unfortunately, everybody is looking only to the uke who is falling down without touching by nage...so his message is lost.... just like in this old story about zen master showing a moon with finger - everybody look at the finger, not at the moon...

Nagababa

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Old 08-18-2014, 01:19 PM   #37
kewms
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Please don't bring such trivial argument again, it was already deeply discussed here. Unless you can share video where you teach how to defend yourself in 'real situation'
Discussed many times, but still relevant. An attacker who is expecting a particular technique will respond very differently from one who is not. Since aikido is not a competitive sport, any plausible off-mat encounter will involve an attacker who does not know what to expect. Also, since aikido is not a competitive sport, the number of potential scenarios in which aikido might be used is much larger, and the toolbox must expand appropriately. (And it is therefore much more difficult to "perfect" everything in the toolbox.)

So, again, one must ask "what are you training?" What is uke training?

Shiai is not kata. Both are valuable, especially for more advanced students. But it's necessary that both partners agree on what they are actually practicing. If we are practicing kata, then uke needs to offer an attack that allows the particular technique being demonstrated to occur. If we are practicing more freely, then uke shouldn't be shocked if nage does something unexpected.

Instead, what often happens is that uke blocks the demonstrated technique, but then acts as if nage is "cheating" by doing something else. I'm not sure how much anybody learns in that kind of situation. Uke gets to massage their own ego. Nage learns that their technique doesn't work, but doesn't learn anything that would help them improve it. Yawn.

Katherine
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:08 PM   #38
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
But we are not practicing aikido to get high level of fitting into nage technique, isn't it? It is other way around, we are looking to execute perfect martial technique! Otherwise you can practice dancing and still learn to fit perfectly into your partner technique you will not have to do any aikido....
Well ukemi that fits into nage's technique so perfectly that nage cannot tell that uke is actually guiding themselves through the ukemi is absolutely what I would call perfect martial technique. Might be my Shinkage ryu training influencing my thinking there.

Quote:
What is my experience with aikidokas who don't use strong uke feedback, quickly they become full of themselves and very arrogant. And they always blame others when their techniques miserably fails.
Most aikidoka I work with who come from training environments that insist on strong uke feedback are also full of themselves and very arrogant, but are also very stiff and don't really do aikido.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:30 PM   #39
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

Considering this
Quote:
What is my experience with aikidokas who don't use strong uke feedback, quickly they become full of themselves and very arrogant. And they always blame others when their techniques miserably fails.
And this
Quote:
Most aikidoka I work with who come from training environments that insist on strong uke feedback are also full of themselves and very arrogant, but are also very stiff and don't really do aikido.
Then most aikidoka, regardeless of the training method followed, become arrogant and full of themselves.

Good to know.

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Old 08-18-2014, 02:58 PM   #40
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
But we are not practicing aikido to get high level of fitting into nage technique, isn't it? It is other way around, we are looking to execute perfect martial technique! Otherwise you can practice dancing and still learn to fit perfectly into your partner technique you will not have to do any aikido....
But remember that both partners are practicing aikido. If uke "fits" with nage sufficiently well, perhaps nage is the one who ends up getting thrown....

Katherine
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Old 08-18-2014, 04:43 PM   #41
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

For the sake of discussion (and my sanity), can somebody please post a couple of video examples of "resisting" uke that leads to "effective martial training" from nage, as opposed to uke that "tanks". thx
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:56 AM   #42
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Considering this

And this

Then most aikidoka, regardeless of the training method followed, become arrogant and full of themselves.

Good to know.
Only if you buy equally into my and Saucepan's stories.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:52 AM   #43
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
From the little bit of judo I've watched, I would say "99%" is an extreme overestimate of the number of techniques successfully applied in high level competition.

Aikido is also not a competition. In a real situation, the attacker *won't* know what you are going to do.

Here, as in all discussions of this kind, it's necessary to consider the relative levels of the partners. Certainly yudansha should be practicing differently from beginners.

Katherine
Couple of things I have noticed...

Judo competition is about knowing and training for your partner's strengths. Yes, there are a small number of comp techniques that usually dominate play. To the larger point, most good players have a good idea of what their competition will attempt. This training is other sport fighting, sports like baseball and [real] football and even education like spelling bees. I think the point is that maybe we should not rely so much on the idea of fairness surrounding ukes who hedge their bets.

I have some reservation with the comment, "well, sure I could stop you if I know what you're doing." Nolan Ryan can tell me he is throwing a fastball... That doesn't mean I can hit it. I think the statement is conditionally true when there is a difference of skill and the spirit of the comment is "Yes, I am better than you and I can beat you, but this isn't about me." I think we should work towards, "it doesn't matter," and eventually towards, "no, you can't."

I think the argument I feel developing from our training is that with a small amount of variation, IF I do what I am supposed to do, then my partner is very likely going to do what she is supposed to do. This would fall more into waza and less into kata.

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Old 08-19-2014, 10:34 AM   #44
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

Nolan Ryan gave up 321 home runs and 3923 hits in his career. *You* might not be able to hit his fastball, but plenty of his peers could. Setting up the batter to expect a different pitch from the one actually being thrown is a substantial part of the art of pitching.

Katherine
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:24 PM   #45
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
For the sake of discussion (and my sanity), can somebody please post a couple of video examples of "resisting" uke that leads to "effective martial training" from nage, as opposed to uke that "tanks". thx
thank you

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Old 08-19-2014, 06:02 PM   #46
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Nolan Ryan gave up 321 home runs and 3923 hits in his career. *You* might not be able to hit his fastball, but plenty of his peers could. Setting up the batter to expect a different pitch from the one actually being thrown is a substantial part of the art of pitching.

Katherine
Interestingly,I am pretty sure Nolan Ryan's rookie year was '68. Also, I believe he has one of the lowest batting averages against a pitcher. So, from the metrics of baseball...

The point was that most of what we do is playing the percentages.

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Old 08-20-2014, 03:07 AM   #47
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
For the sake of discussion (and my sanity), can somebody please post a couple of video examples of "resisting" uke that leads to "effective martial training" from nage, as opposed to uke that "tanks". thx
I think good kaeshiwaza or shodokan tanto randori videos should help.

This is not to say that these are the only scenarios where "non tanking" is essential, just to provide visualization.

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Old 08-20-2014, 03:28 AM   #48
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I do not think I have ever seen a video of Ueshiba in which his uke do not "tank."
Maybe that was for the purpose of demonstration.

According to what my own teacher told (who trained in hombu between '55 and '65 before he was sent to germany), there was no choice to be compliant ore not. You were thrown before you knew what happened.
He told often that he didn't know why his body began to move, nore why he landed on the ground, although he was one the best trained uke in hombu dojo at that time.

In normal training techniques were different from what was shown in demonstrations.
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:41 AM   #49
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

Just to be sure we are on the same page.. for me
"Tanking" refers to a fictitious response in which the uke [re]acts in a manner disingenuous to the nage.
"Resisting" refers to a committed [re]action from the uke oriented to prevent an outcome (nage is trying to accomplish).

As a note, the use of "tank" in this thread is somewhat different than how I use the term. I think compliant movement is a little closer to how I would describe a partner who seeks to move without consideration of her personal integrity, but rather the integrity of her partner. Cooperative movement would be the joint consideration of accomplishing a goal without regard for integrity (from either partner).

Uke waza should be a commitment:
1. to provide an sound, functional, attack that initiates connection (an would accomplish an affect if otherwise not dealt with)
2. to receive nage's movement in a manner consistent with an acceptable response to the effect of nage's movement
This gives us some freedom individually to determine what we feel is acceptable. No doubt, some of us make better choices than others. But, it does gives us the opportunity to make good choices. For example, resisting shiho nage during normal training may not be acceptable. Maybe a training opportunity turns bad and nage is close to seriously injuring uke, uke defends by resisting the technique to thwart what may have been a injurious movement. If nage jeopardizes uke, then it is acceptable for uke to respond to the effect of the movement. This is why we typically don't elevate our training to that level of risk.

When I work out with good aikido people, I can do so with less regard for my integrity because my partner inherits some responsibility to preserve it. If I give my partner my wrist to twist, I am doing so with the expectation they will not break it in the execution of technique. On the other hand, if I am working with someone who I do not think is responsible, I may not be free-giving with my trust or my integrity. I may choose to retain some ability to resist as a means of self defense. I can still take ukemi, but it is more reserved.

I would think most of O Sensei's students held a significant level of trust and respect for O Sensei to give them a high level of freedom to let O Sensei move them without the need to regard their integrity.

Last edited by jonreading : 08-20-2014 at 08:43 AM.

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Old 08-21-2014, 06:51 AM   #50
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba (O-Sensei) in 1968

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
When I work out with good aikido people, I can do so with less regard for my integrity because my partner inherits some responsibility to preserve it.
For me, in ukemi it is neccessary to keep the responsibility and integrity almost all the time, also in the moment I "fly", but not to resist nages force (this is also a way to train "song").
Ukemi requires a high level of attention and fast reactions.
To scale down the regard for integrity is not what I do. Though I make my body permeable, I have the ambiton never to give up control ore integrity and to increase the abilities to control the forces that nage tries to effect me with. Part of it is to let loose, but to keep inner connection at the same time.
Ukemi is a very important part of the training, because when done correctly, it can condition the body.
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