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Old 07-14-2014, 10:43 AM   #26
jonreading
 
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Re: Irimi Nage

Our waza is currently in the toilet. That said...

I am not a fan of irimi nage. I actually think 2 judo throws (o soto gari and koshi guruma) do a better job of showing the jujutsu of what is going on. When I first started seeing the "uke turns into nage and gets split over the hip" throw, I remembered thinking, "isn't that just a funky koshi guruma?"
Here is a link to some koshi guruma samples:
http://youtu.be/pJsQrgMhgk4
Some o sot gari samples:
http://youtu.be/pHAlYRNMt-E


So what's make irimi nage different? I guess...aiki...
I tend to think about the chokusen no irimi nage as my irimi nage; a direct entering throw with no tenkan. If you can get that guy, you can making a pretty turn and do it, too. I think irimi is vertical separation with lateral expression. Both Tissier sensei and Ikeda sensei often show very large vertical movement and very clear body rotation to illustrate the vertical separation and lateral movement.

I am not sure grabbing is particularly helpful. I tend to feel like the grip is more to stay connected to a partner you are throwing, not contribute to the throw. Ultimately, I think you are separating your partner's spinal alignment through vertical movement and using lateral movement to create kuzushi. Aside from relative position - I am not sure we're talking much difference from ten chi nage in terms of principles, only the lateral movement.

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Old 07-14-2014, 11:39 AM   #27
Cliff Judge
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I was taught that the "neck" hand should rest pretty much at the top of the spine, with the spine lying in the "V" between the fingers and thumb. From there, the feeling is more of the hand falling toward your own center, NOT pushing/pulling uke downward.

Exactly what this does to uke's body will depend on him. A more flexible and responsive person will lower their center to try to keep their alignment, allowing you to "bounce" them back up and leading to the "classic" irimi nage back fall. A less responsive person is likely to bend at the waist, leading to either a faceplant or a forward roll.
Interesting...I was originally taught that the neck hand should be on the side of the neck, so the fingers could dig into the nerve cluster behind the jaw on an uncompliant uke. And that uke's head should be brough to about your shoulder, or at least towards if they don't bend all the way. All seems fine on paper, but I've never been very good at it.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:25 PM   #28
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Re: Irimi Nage

For me, the iriminage variation I end up with often depends on what uke is doing. Ive been lucky enough to train with a handful of aikido organizations and steal any tips, tricks, or full-on techniques that work for me. Iriminage is no exception - so you'll often see me doing about three or four very different looking kihon. Some things that are important to me are;
actually off-balancing uke from the beginning, while getting control of his or her center. I do this by ensuring whatever I am holding onto (collar, neck, etc) is snugly attached to some part of my body (generally chest or far shoulder, whatever so long as I can get my non-holding arm around for the throwy part).

I also ensure uke's head is misaligned from his spine, off to a side or corner. I try not to ever let uke have their head in the same line as their hips/spine as they can regain balance with little effort.

I don't bring uke to the ground. I don't like to be in a situation where I have to fight them back up, I feel like it's too time consuming, and also the reason mentioned in the above paragraph.

Other than that I just make sure I am throwing with my body - as in my chest/armpit area, and that uke is completely under me and not floating away.

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Old 07-14-2014, 05:37 PM   #29
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Interesting...I was originally taught that the neck hand should be on the side of the neck, so the fingers could dig into the nerve cluster behind the jaw on an uncompliant uke. And that uke's head should be brough to about your shoulder, or at least towards if they don't bend all the way. All seems fine on paper, but I've never been very good at it.
Many variations are possible, so without actually seeing what you do I'd rather not speculate too much.

I will say that my experience with that nerve cluster is that it requires a great deal of accuracy to do more than make uke grumpy. Applying more pressure in the wrong spot not only won't work, but is likely to give uke something to fight back against: always a bad idea. OTOH, having a soft "neck" hand gives you lots of options, including that one.

None of my teachers have put much emphasis on the "head-to-shoulder" aspect. I think disruption of uke's alignment matters more than exact relative positions, which will depend on body type anyway.

Katherine
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Old 07-14-2014, 05:44 PM   #30
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
None of my teachers have put much emphasis on the "head-to-shoulder" aspect. I think disruption of uke's alignment matters more than exact relative positions, which will depend on body type anyway.

Katherine
Agree

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Old 07-14-2014, 05:46 PM   #31
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Re: Irimi Nage

Well, let's try this again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWL27rWV6Xs

My first time trying to link in a youtube clip, y'all. Apologies.

If you can't see it, on youtube you can search "wasabidojo merritt complete" and it'll come up.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 07-14-2014, 05:59 PM   #32
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Re: Irimi Nage

On Phi Truong's atemi love, let's us see....

1. On entry, atemi against the attacking hand/arm...

2. Still on entry your inbound knee into the attacker's outer thigh (this happens "accidentally" for me from time to time, I think it's the awareness from the Muay Thai training, it's just so easy and obviously there to strike)...

3. Non-traditional, but what about the inner forearm shiver to the back of the neck, that's right ehre.

** Comment ** I don't grab anything when I do iriminage, the one hand is up, over and around uke's shoulder, nd my arm falls into the space between the far shoulder and neck. I do "think" an arm's weight (I've a long arm so it must weigh a lot) towards the earth while rotating uke.

4. On the reversing of rotation, the obvious one is the one offensive to Janet, the whiplash clothesline, which "can" be done as a rising ridgehand strike not at uke's head but just past it, which means that the actual striking surface is the other inner forearm.

5. And of course, my personally favorite bit of "striking" mean-ness is to nail uke with a semi-traditional osoto-gari as part and parcel of gake. That's really nasty and don't do it to anybody buty your friends when they know you are working on it. You're likely to invert someone to land on their head. Unpleasant in the extreme.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:46 PM   #33
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Re: Irimi Nage

Well, I tried yesterday. It's best for me to "catch" their head right after irimi and before stepping to uke's behind. I catch them in the side of the forehead, just above eye level and ears. After that, guide the head to the side and downwards to the front of my shoulder, but while doing tenkan, so, it will look like a spiral just by doing that. Amazingly, uke's body just following my lead on his head.

Then for the throw, after rotating (the classic rotation of iriminage), I just suddenly reverse the rotation, while rising my arms slowly beneath uke's chin, from here, uke is already unbalanced, I can give a gentle push and he will fall, and if I'm feeling like a showman, just cut diagonally to my front (to the center of the spiral), making uke do a high fall.

Funny thing is, the key to this is just practice, practice, practice. My sensei just give me a hint, "Spiral", then he asked all of us to remain silent while practicing. The class was conditioned into total silence. Then we do irimi nage for a full 2 hours (with different strikes though).

What about the faceplant? Well, also did that, just drop your weight while holding the head. But sadly, I can't control uke. Can't control his (expected) reaction, can't control the next move, can't control anything. I deemed that too dangerous and back to basics.

One of my "aha!" moments in aikido. A glimpse of enlightenment.

Last edited by Asou : 07-14-2014 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 07-14-2014, 10:17 PM   #34
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
For me, the iriminage variation I end up with often depends on what uke is doing. Ive been lucky enough to train with a handful of aikido organizations and steal any tips, tricks, or full-on techniques that work for me. Iriminage is no exception - so you'll often see me doing about three or four very different looking kihon. Some things that are important to me are;
actually off-balancing uke from the beginning, while getting control of his or her center. I do this by ensuring whatever I am holding onto (collar, neck, etc) is snugly attached to some part of my body (generally chest or far shoulder, whatever so long as I can get my non-holding arm around for the throwy part).

I also ensure uke's head is misaligned from his spine, off to a side or corner. I try not to ever let uke have their head in the same line as their hips/spine as they can regain balance with little effort.

I don't bring uke to the ground. I don't like to be in a situation where I have to fight them back up, I feel like it's too time consuming, and also the reason mentioned in the above paragraph.

Other than that I just make sure I am throwing with my body - as in my chest/armpit area, and that uke is completely under me and not floating away.
yes, exactly what I just realized yesterday, misalign uke's head with his spine, "carry" the head with you as you make your own center of rotation.



then, you can throw uke diagonally inside toward your center.



Lead the head, the body shall follows. Sorry for the bad drawing lol , just for illustration purposes.

What I'm thinking now is... What can I do to make uke more unbalanced, as in making his head and spine really misaligned/not straight? Should I make a greater circle of rotation? Shall I side step first after "catching" the head, then tenkan? Or should I keep turning? What do you guys think?
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Old 07-14-2014, 10:29 PM   #35
Janet Rosen
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
On Phi Truong's atemi love, let's us see....
...
4. On the reversing of rotation, the obvious one is the one offensive to Janet, the whiplash clothesline, which "can" be done as a rising ridgehand strike not at uke's head but just past it, which means that the actual striking surface is the other inner forearm.
Nah, I don't offend quite that easily :-)
The atemi I like in that sense is 1. snaking the hand straight up uke's center along the throat to hit under the chin with heel of hand (works well on tenshinage too...or 2. snaking hand up and running entire hand diagonally across uke's face covering eyes and nose as you turn his head. Note I DO NOT actually practice this way. Just have played with it a few times in the past and the Brooklyn budobabe likes having certain things in the tool kit

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-15-2014, 01:33 AM   #36
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post

What about the faceplant? Well, also did that, just drop your weight while holding the head. But sadly, I can't control uke. Can't control his (expected) reaction, can't control the next move, can't control anything. I deemed that too dangerous and back to basics.
That's right. It's not possible to control uke while doing this.
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Old 07-15-2014, 05:38 AM   #37
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
That's right. It's not possible to control uke while doing this.
perhaps after 50 years of practicing aikido, we can?

found a 46 mins instructional movie about irimi nage by hiroshi ikeda shihan

dat 360 degree footwork
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Old 07-15-2014, 07:33 AM   #38
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Re: Irimi Nage

I'll admit that I have only watched the first minute. I'll watch the rest tomorrow when I have time. In general, I'm a big fan of Ikeda sensei.

The thing with that kind of irimi-nage is that it is entirely dependent on uke trying to get up. If they decide to do a commando roll, for instance, you can always kick them in the head, but you won't manage a graceful irimange like Ikeda sensei demonstrates. Not even Ikeda sensei can do that. Of course, if uke gets up in the choreographed manner, then you have great control, but it will always be dependent on that.
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Old 07-15-2014, 08:20 AM   #39
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
perhaps after 50 years of practicing aikido, we can?

found a 46 mins instructional movie about irimi nage by hiroshi ikeda shihan

dat 360 degree footwork
that was before he blown he knees. don't remember if i see him does that anymore. his iriminage tends to be a small spiral now a day. i think he tenkan with his spleen and uke went flying.

btw, i have seen folks focus too much on the tenkan portion and not enough on the irimi. iriminage has no tenkan.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:16 AM   #40
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Re: Irimi Nage

I don't think you should worry too much about controlling uke when they are dropping towards the mat. Honestly, getting behind somebody and dumping them on their butt is a good technique. The practice then becomes, staying connected with them as they get back up, and finding the sweet spot where it is easy to throw them the second time.

I was once taught that a combative application of irimi nage was to get their body torquing one way, and their head the other - snap. That's a hard technique to practice though.

One of our head instructors, Don Moock. teaches getting uke's shoulder stacked directly over their OPPOSITE hip, with their head over the hip. He lays his arm over uke's shoulder to make the connection and unbalance, rather than grabbing the neck. It seems like you can get most ukes into this posture before they feel terribly off-balance and try to get it back.
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:09 PM   #41
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
that was before he blown he knees. don't remember if i see him does that anymore. his iriminage tends to be a small spiral now a day. i think he tenkan with his spleen and uke went flying.

btw, i have seen folks focus too much on the tenkan portion and not enough on the irimi. iriminage has no tenkan.
I loled at the spleen hahahahaa

so tenkan
much knee
very ki pawa
such spin

what do you mean no tenkan? do you mean some kind of direct iriminage? palm open straight to the uke's face?
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Old 07-16-2014, 12:17 AM   #42
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
I loled at the spleen hahahahaa

so tenkan
much knee
very ki pawa
such spin

what do you mean no tenkan? do you mean some kind of direct iriminage? palm open straight to the uke's face?
You can do no tenkan for a completely direct iriminage, or you can do a partial tenkan like in the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETEXGiQcTEA

To me, this video shows all the important aspects of iriminage. Everything else is just fluff.
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Old 07-16-2014, 12:57 AM   #43
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Re: Irimi Nage

Irimi nage means "entering throw." No tenkan required.

There are a number of different tenkan-free variations. Two that I like are:

* Take balance on the entry, go directly to the finishing move.

OR

* Enter as normal, then step to uke's omote side, leading his attacking hand across the front of his body. In this variation, he turns in the opposite direction from a "normal" irimi nage.

Both of these versions are fairly direct, and may be more convincing to the "aikido doesn't work" crowd.

Katherine
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:54 AM   #44
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
what do you mean no tenkan? do you mean some kind of direct iriminage? palm open straight to the uke's face?
something for you to think about. you can irimi moving forward. you can irimi moving backward. you can irimi moving in circle. there is no tenkan. "there is no spoon!".

hint: think of that in term of intent and energy

also, did i mention that i also like sokumen irimi nage? just going to rotate my body and put my fist where his head is going to be (got that one for Chuck Clark sensei) and let uke makes the choice of impaling on my fist or take ukemi.

Last edited by phitruong : 07-16-2014 at 07:00 AM.

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Old 07-16-2014, 07:21 AM   #45
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
You can do no tenkan for a completely direct iriminage, or you can do a partial tenkan like in the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETEXGiQcTEA

To me, this video shows all the important aspects of iriminage. Everything else is just fluff.
I like this one from her iriminage

no tenkan!

the iriminage is from 3:00 mark. She is badass the way she talks remind me of my high school teacher

but, if the opponent is shirtless (no collar) where would she grab?

Last edited by Asou : 07-16-2014 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:24 AM   #46
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
yes, exactly what I just realized yesterday, misalign uke's head with his spine, "carry" the head with you as you make your own center of rotation.



then, you can throw uke diagonally inside toward your center.



Lead the head, the body shall follows. Sorry for the bad drawing lol , just for illustration purposes.

What I'm thinking now is... What can I do to make uke more unbalanced, as in making his head and spine really misaligned/not straight? Should I make a greater circle of rotation? Shall I side step first after "catching" the head, then tenkan? Or should I keep turning? What do you guys think?
When connecting with uke, move more to the side, in a lateral movement. Uke will be more off-balance than if you just drive his head forward. Uke should basically be on his toes throughout the movement - so long as you don't stop moving or breakup the technique in segments. When uke is connected to your body, uke will move wherever you move...so you can move him as much as you want....it won't require too large a movement on your part. You should always be making uke move more than you.

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Old 07-16-2014, 09:45 AM   #47
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
Well, let's try this again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWL27rWV6Xs

My first time trying to link in a youtube clip, y'all. Apologies.

If you can't see it, on youtube you can search "wasabidojo merritt complete" and it'll come up.
Can you explain a little what you want to display with this link? I apologize if you did in another post, but I couldn't find it if there is one.

thanks!

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Old 07-16-2014, 09:50 AM   #48
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
I like this one from her iriminage

no tenkan!

the iriminage is from 3:00 mark. She is badass the way she talks remind me of my high school teacher

but, if the opponent is shirtless (no collar) where would she grab?
Cup the neck...keep it snug to your chest or even shoulder - wherever uke ends up depending on size and momentum, so long as they are tightly attached to nage.

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Old 07-16-2014, 09:57 AM   #49
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
something for you to think about. you can irimi moving forward. you can irimi moving backward. you can irimi moving in circle. there is no tenkan. "there is no spoon!".

hint: think of that in term of intent and energy
.
Yep. My analogy is always girl from Brooklyn finding only parking space in town across the street facing the other way and the light just turned so the oncoming traffic is approaching.....FAST U-turn and get into the space....it is a tenkan FORM but it is 100% irimi in that the car's velocity is forward and it is entering.

BTW I am also a huge fan of both sokomen iriminage and the entering version that Katherine described, which where I train is called something that sounds like "unendo" and can be done quite softly and flowing or quite martially with an atemi or cut at the face.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-16-2014, 10:15 AM   #50
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Re: Irimi Nage

Video of direct entry variation of shomen iriminage, from Yoshinkan Kihon Waza: shomenuchi iriminage dai ichi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux85OqaN1UY

Version from a reverse punch. This one can be tricky, I don't recall if its kihon or oyo waza. If you are late, you will smash a little into uke...if your timing is good its a great technique...though my particular sensei adds a push block as you move in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKakAgRtQ1w

Not exactly thread relly, but I've always like the transition in this variation. For those that can't see, nage is throwing an atemi as they step under the arm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yimp...uPZZbCqeGGtF4w

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