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Old 09-11-2002, 06:40 AM   #51
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
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step by step

A prerequisite for peace is tolerance.
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Old 09-11-2002, 08:01 AM   #52
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
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criminal intent/ letter of the law

I have been reading the last few pages, and listening to names of the 9/11 victims, so if I get a little weird ...

The realization of a protected society, yet in trying to keep the exceptional freedoms of our persons is a near impossibility. We must give up certain freedoms to maintain order and law within a society, but we must also be able to provide support to that society to maintain freedoms.

Every country around the world decides what freedoms are important verses what supports are needed to maintain law within its society. Sometimes we work within the framework and the spirit of the law, other times we are on our own with the opportunity to hurt ourselves. Those choices of each society are the freedoms they have chosen.

Each of us finds the means to survive in our society, within the substance and means of our contributions, and we try to create the somewhat free areas of choice while depending upon the safety net of the law with fair enforcement.

Considering the small percentage of enforcement available, on average a dozen enforcement individuals per ten thousand residents, the bulk of law enforcement depends upon its citizens. That would be ... you ... and me.

Considering this disparaging number of enforcement, I would say that our moral and physical presence is required to interact and support these systems of justice.

So, does our plight of physical intervention by use of Aikido, or other means preclude our incarceration for interceding? I hope not.

We are, no less, responsible to enforce and interact with the laws of the land in both the spirit and letter of the law. Sometimes the spirit does not come across in the letter of the law, but that is choice of society as it changes and updates its words to meet the spirit of society.

Although I don't always reveal the many secrets of Aikido, my training has opened up many secrets to the variety of options Aikido offers, verses say ... a front kick, or a jab trying to force an opening.

Would you jump into a group of football players and start a fight? Probably not. Although I would like to know enough to protect myself as the little old man who could have the option to protect himself should violence occur.

Our dilema becomes the solution ... just as much as it is the problem. The use of violence to stop violence is the inevitablity of war. It is bad enough we narrow our minds to the bigger picture and let individuals send us into a war, but in being prepared to defend yourself you should gather the knowledge you need to work withing your societys laws and spirit of those laws.

Hopefully, we will find a way to live in peace by balanceing the economy, food, shelter, and basics of humanitys existence, and eliminate the need to have war to acquire greater power or wealth.

As for O'Sensei ... didn't he give up on the practicality of peace and retreat to his beloved farming during WWII? I would say that his statement was to make peace within yourself before you can ask someone else to do so.
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Old 09-11-2002, 06:15 PM   #53
javnitro
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11
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I agree with you in the point that sometimes "the good for all" issue becomes fascist; there is were common sense and humanity are important.

Yes, Hitler was working or the "common goal" of the Aryans by commiting genocide; just like the rich white men of the south were working for their common goal of being rich by enslaving people; and the Aztecs were working for the "common goal" of keeping the gods happy by sacrificing members of their dominated territories.

The problem here is that all of the above where taking advantage of some other race, culture, religion, etcetera; without taking in consideration their human dimension.

Now, comparing that with saying that it is oppressive if it is prohibited, for example, to eat meat or drive SUV's... is a little far fetched. These ones would be rules that would not affect your human dimension.
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Some people join the military to perserve peace.

Some people choose to join the peace corp to perserve peace.

neither are right and neither are wrong...they are both good choices with the same goal. Actually, in theory, both must exisit for their to be peace....the paradox of peace.
What theory are you talking about? and why is it important for both to exist?

The idea of having military for peace is pure double speak. The two concepts don't go together.

And peace is not a paradox; that is what most military states want for people to believe. Example: Pinochet in Chile.

I don't believe that there is anywhere in the world where the military is used for peace purposes. Instead, it is used for business and selfish political ideologies: an oil pipe in Afghanistan, a friendly capitalist governement in Nicaragua, etcetera.

Ah, by the way, is not a spelling bee, I was just showing you your mistake. I just learned that because is written with an "a" and not with an "o".
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Old 09-11-2002, 08:12 PM   #54
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
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Javier,

I assume you study aikido...

Do you not see the paradox in practicing aikido as a means to peace?

When doing ikkyo it is required that you present a posture that is threatening enough for your partner to believe that you could hurt him. When he attacks, you are also in a position to attack, it is not necessary to attack, but in order for ikkyo to work, your uke must believe that you could if you wanted to. You take center blend and then pin.

People join the military for the most part, (at least in my country) not to fight wars, to kill or be killed, but to protect their freedoms and peace. By presenting a strong military force, you can do much to prevent war from happening.

To quote O'Sensei from a John Stevens translation.

"The real art of Peace is not to sacrifice a single one of your warriors to defeat an enemy. Vanquish your foes by always keeping yourself in a safe and unassailable position; then no one will suffer any losses. The way of a Warrior, the art of Politics, is to stop trouble before it starts. It consist in defeating your adversaries spiritually by making them realize the folly of their actions. The Way of the Warrior is to establish harmony."

The Peace Corps is designed to help people help themselves. By helping them build their own country and infrastructure, you can help them avoid war, spread good will, and also spread harmony.

The paradox is that both the military and the peace corp have the same goal on a global scale, to keep peace for the United States.

The peace corps is a better way to true, long lasting peace. The military can only assure peace as long as it presents a presence and a threat. It is therefore short term in perspective.

I think there are some good examples where NATO, and the UN are doing much work using military forces as peacekeeping forces to keep countries like Bosnia from committing Genocide and having internal conflict while they educate and rebuild.

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Old 09-12-2002, 02:55 AM   #55
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Javier,

I assume you study aikido...

Do you not see the paradox in practicing aikido as a means to peace?

People join the military for the most part, (at least in my country) not to fight wars, to kill or be killed, but to protect their freedoms and peace. By presenting a strong military force, you can do much to prevent war from happening.

The paradox is that both the military and the peace corp have the same goal on a global scale, to keep peace for the United States.

The peace corps is a better way to true, long lasting peace. The military can only assure peace as long as it presents a presence and a threat. It is therefore short term in perspective.

I think there are some good examples where NATO, and the UN are doing much work using military forces as peacekeeping forces to keep countries like Bosnia from committing Genocide and having internal conflict while they educate and rebuild.
Again, I must disagree.

The military is used, as Javier said, for corporate purposes first, and foremost. Since the government is most often guided by corporate interests (due to politicians elected on soft money), the military, as a tool for the gov't, serves as a corporate tool, by association.

Corporations have shown to express a poor regard for worker rights, or quality of life in those areas outside the US that they control. Certainly, their environmental considerations extend as far as a good PR campaign, no more.

They also aren't above the little scam of resources to bilk their customers (note the PG & E fraud, remember?), and they seem quite content to subvert the (originally intended) egalitarian nature under which the Constitution. For that matter, corporations couldn't care less about ANY laws that contravene profits.

To suggest that the acquisitive and destructive nature of corporations will bring us world peace is quite Orwellian in its absurd reverse-logic.
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