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Old 07-04-2014, 05:02 PM   #26
Hilary
Dojo: Torrey Pines Aiki Kai
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Riai thank you for the kind words. In a nutshell my degree is in applied physics so the physics insights are really those of anyone with a technical degree. If you haven’t studied it, it’s rocket science, if you have it is just freshman statics and dynamics (so no big deal). At one point in my life I produced a 3D animated video and the problems of making an animated cat that simply walked without looking completely stupid (forget realistic) enlightened me as to the complexity of describing natural movement.

My sensei has been in martial arts for almost 60 years and aikido over 40 and, among other things, was a bio mechanics consultant to the US Olympic team. He is a researcher and a teacher by nature and profession, so we have always had a biomechanical slant to our material. He has been looking for easier more economical ways to do things since his early judo days, and students taking ukemi have been his lab rats (squeak). In the last couple of year I have been taking a few seminars with other notables and talking with some of the IP folks. I have found that all these ideas dovetail nicely.

If you combine keeping one point, connected body, no power at the point of contact, the relaxation of unbendable arm, projection of intent, tangential redirection, spiraling movement (both internal and external), tendon and fascia strength, grounding, ki extension, knowledge of sensation and perception, well-knit sinews, some IP secret sauce, and lots of exercises/drills designed to develop different aspects of the total package you find yourself writing this to someone on a Friday morning.
Because after a lot of training, time, input, reading, thinking and exposure to outstanding practitioners (of many stripes) this stuff starts to condense and take form. I am not sure I do this it all that well, but analysis is what I used to do professionally and verbalizing what is in my head is what I currently do (for better or worse) and often to the pained side long looks from my dojo mates (my wife and kids just sigh).

Sharpest tool is not required, practice, introspection and always asking or understanding why is the ticket. Always good to play people above your skill level, never waste you ukemi, always learn from it. Oh be polite to strangers and kind to animals, that duck might be somebody’s mother.
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Old 07-04-2014, 10:56 PM   #27
danielajames
 
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

The following quote has resonated with me for many years (as i move in and out of concepts)

"Your aikido will only improve when your concept of aikido improves"
Kenjiro Yoshigasaki

Engineering and Physics contain lots of useful concepts, if they work for you great, if not, no need to get upset use something else.

FWIW I've benefitted tremendously from physics and engineering concepts in my own practice, its my profession for me so it floats my boat. For others in my dojo what I am saying can be 'blah, blah, blah' but the body work and movement is still there enough for them to get something (they keep coming back).

Funnily enough the ground reaction force, toppling vector and other concepts led me to the IS paradigm. And when I got to see Bill Gleason a few weeks back I thought, there is some neat physics going on there...and then some.

best to all,
dan

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:21 AM   #28
philipsmith
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

As an Aikidoka Physiotherapist and (somewhat limited) biomechanist I can see some merit in all sides of the arguement.
I'm currently involved in a study looking at natural reactions to "grabbing" attacks; and yes the analysis is incredibly complex (maybe 3,000 data points per attack) from a scientific point of view.
Thing is with my Aikido head on I can pretty much predict how the subject is going to react beforehand.
So maybe the convergence of perception and physical movement creates what we call Aikido; and we need to learn the body mechanics as a first step.
As teachers maybe we need also to understand that physical, biomechanical action in order to transmit knowledge of technique effectively and efficiently rather than stumbling around for years before we hit on "the secret" - maybe that way we will produce many more competent Aikidoka than in the past who will also have more time to develop their perceptual skills.
There is IMHO no "magic" just hard work.
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Old 07-05-2014, 12:32 PM   #29
dps
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

The human body is an animate object with animate systems that react differently than inanimate systems do. The systems of the body cannot be understood by classical mechanics, engineering and physics.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/tensegr...omechanics.php

dps
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Old 07-05-2014, 02:51 PM   #30
Riai Maori
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The human body is an animate object with animate systems that react differently than inanimate systems do. The systems of the body cannot be understood by classical mechanics, engineering and physics.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/tensegr...omechanics.php

dps
Interesting read on physics. Lets not talk about the giraffe neck. Some forgot to tell Newton he got it all wrong!

Last edited by Riai Maori : 07-05-2014 at 03:02 PM.

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
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Old 07-05-2014, 03:08 PM   #31
Riai Maori
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
Sharpest tool is not required, practice, introspection and always asking or understanding why is the ticket. Always good to play people above your skill level, never waste you ukemi, always learn from it. Oh be polite to strangers and kind to animals, that duck might be somebody's mother.
Thank you Hilary for the kind advice. Last year I was the proud surrogate father of 6 baby ducklings, I feed and help nurture them until flight. Every year there parents (Paradise Ducks) return for breeding.

Do you have a hidden cam somewhere in the bushes.

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
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Old 07-05-2014, 03:13 PM   #32
Riai Maori
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
The following quote has resonated with me for many years (as i move in and out of concepts)

"Your aikido will only improve when your concept of aikido improves"
Kenjiro Yoshigasaki

Engineering and Physics contain lots of useful concepts, if they work for you great, if not, no need to get upset use something else.

FWIW I've benefitted tremendously from physics and engineering concepts in my own practice, its my profession for me so it floats my boat. For others in my dojo what I am saying can be 'blah, blah, blah' but the body work and movement is still there enough for them to get something (they keep coming back).

Funnily enough the ground reaction force, toppling vector and other concepts led me to the IS paradigm. And when I got to see Bill Gleason a few weeks back I thought, there is some neat physics going on there...and then some.

best to all,
dan
Dear Dan

Our club invited Sensei Gleason to NZ at the same time as you. I missed the seminar, but our Sensei (Satellite Dojo) attended and has shown what he was taught at the seminar. Thanks for the validation.

Kind regards
Richard

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
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Old 07-05-2014, 03:16 PM   #33
Riai Maori
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Thumbs up Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
As an Aikidoka Physiotherapist and (somewhat limited) biomechanist I can see some merit in all sides of the arguement.
I'm currently involved in a study looking at natural reactions to "grabbing" attacks; and yes the analysis is incredibly complex (maybe 3,000 data points per attack) from a scientific point of view.
Thing is with my Aikido head on I can pretty much predict how the subject is going to react beforehand.
So maybe the convergence of perception and physical movement creates what we call Aikido; and we need to learn the body mechanics as a first step.
As teachers maybe we need also to understand that physical, biomechanical action in order to transmit knowledge of technique effectively and efficiently rather than stumbling around for years before we hit on "the secret" - maybe that way we will produce many more competent Aikidoka than in the past who will also have more time to develop their perceptual skills.
There is IMHO no "magic" just hard work.
Dear Philip,

Thank you for sharing with us your job description. I love people who walk the talk so to speak. And a big thumbs up for sharing "the secret" no magic there friend.

Kind regards
Richard

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
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Old 07-05-2014, 03:22 PM   #34
Riai Maori
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I don't know about you, but I have a hard time calculating cosines in my head in the middle of a technique.

And, getting back to my original point, if you describe your technique in terms of forces *acting on* uke then yes, you are explictly describing your technique as something nage does TO uke. Which, IMO, is ultimately a very limiting description.

Katherine
Dear Katherine.

Me too and yes I agree that it is limiting for myself as a beginner. I am just trying to understand some of Aikido concepts or flavors.

No disrespect intended and I do enjoy your postings, most of the time I say to myself go get them girl, when you agree to disagree.

All the best.

Kind regards
Richard

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
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Old 07-05-2014, 05:58 PM   #35
Robert Cowham
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Lots of good stuff in the thread already.

I find that a basic physical understanding of what is taking place really helps. And yet that is informed by lots of other things which include feeling into uke's center etc.

I tend to start with basic physics, which includes the fact that we are (on earth) connected to the ground and thus actions/reactions need to find their way to the ground through our body. Any action, from lifting a pint of beer to our mouth (I wonder why that example came to mind!) requires the forces of this action to be transmitted through our body to the ground (typically feet or via bum to chair). The more we become aware of these forces in our body, the greater our skill level.

Make it an aikido uke, and us trying to perform a technique, and the variables multiply exponentially, and yet there are still forces at work which we can become aware of, and influence. Luckily, I don't think I will have learned all there is about these scenarios any time soon...
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Old 07-05-2014, 06:09 PM   #36
crbateman
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
There are numerous others that are not on the top of my head at the moment, but I'll add to this post after the drugs wear off...
Another interesting read is this book: Aikido, Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:41 PM   #37
lbb
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
So, who cares? My nomenclature does not have to equal yur nomenclature, but it might be jhelpful if we could translate back and forth.
Indeed. To OP, if you don't like the word "metaphor", then say "model", or "viewpoint", or whatever you want. Physics are definitely (obviously) present in aikido...but that's not all there is to it. Nor is it necessary to view aikido as a physics problem in order to get it. Eventually, on some level, your comprehension has to encompass that, but you don't have to come to an "understanding" of what's going on in terms of vectors and forces and whatnot.
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:43 PM   #38
Riai Maori
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The human body is an animate object with animate systems that react differently than inanimate systems do. The systems of the body cannot be understood by classical mechanics, engineering and physics.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/tensegr...omechanics.php

dps
"Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law
by John Thomas Read

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/BookPage.html

I am trying to decide whether to buy this book.

To that end I want to know if my understanding of this excerpt from the book (http://www.aikibojitsu.com/files/Asy..._Surface_2.pdf) is correct.

Simply put the katas are a way of tuning or harmonizing the practitioner's body with the bo or jo so that the practitioner "becomes one" with the bo or jo.

dps"

I was wondering if you found this book interesting?

Last edited by Riai Maori : 07-05-2014 at 07:45 PM.

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Old 07-05-2014, 07:59 PM   #39
Riai Maori
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Indeed. To OP, if you don't like the word "metaphor", then say "model", or "viewpoint", or whatever you want. Physics are definitely (obviously) present in aikido...but that's not all there is to it. Nor is it necessary to view aikido as a physics problem in order to get it. Eventually, on some level, your comprehension has to encompass that, but you don't have to come to an "understanding" of what's going on in terms of vectors and forces and whatnot.
Dear Mary,

Thank you for contributing.

As a beginner, I find it easier for myself to comprehend Aikido as a whole. Yes I know it is a small, yet crucial element of Aikido. I would ask myself why am I falling into the "black hole" every time someone performed a technique on me. Other people have generously broken it down more complex.

For myself as a beginner it gives me a broader knowledge of the subject.

Please cut me some slack.

Kind regards
Richard

Last edited by Riai Maori : 07-05-2014 at 08:02 PM.

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Old 07-06-2014, 03:56 AM   #40
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

The human brain is an amazing "physics computer". Whether or not the person doing a movement consciously understands anything about physics, any movement we generate ends up being about the physics of it.
Imagine the baseball outfielder - or the cricket fielder - the ball is struck, it's on a high parabolic arc which is influenced by gravity, air resistance, wind direction, and the spin of the ball as it leaves the bat. Without a moment's pause to calculate anything, the fielder can run to where the ball is going to land so that he or she can catch the ball. Imagine writing up the equation for that...

The aikido person does all that computation inside, also, without realizing it. As others have commented it, some call it physics (which I think about to speed up how I learn something, until I don't have to think that way and I can do it by feel), others call it "ki".

It's not simple. When starting out in biomechanics I was shown a film (yes, a 16 mm film, it's that long ago) of the steps to "optimize" something as simple as a kick to a target. I can't remember the details but it took something like 30 variables, (a lot of) ordinary differential equations, and 24 hours of computing time in a PDP-11 (what used to be a really good computer, probably trashed by a pentium processor for processing power) to calculate an "optimal" strategy for a person to kick a target that was at waist height..
Calculations we're not aware of - neural transmission rate, muscle recruitment patterns, "think" time, sensory-to-spine-to-brain-to-processing-to-forming-a-response-plan-to-sending-the-signal-to-nerve-transmission-to-spine-to-muscle-to-contract-to-movement. Studies have shown that if you've started a response, and you need to make a change, there's a gap of (here's my forgetting... is it 150 milliseconds?) during which you can't even start a change. An example is the goaltender in ice-hockey - sees a shot coming, starts to move to catch the puck, but his team-mate's leg deflects the path of the puck in the last metre of the puck's flight to where the goalie thinks the puck is going, and suddenly the puck is no longer going there - sorry - you don't have time to reprogram the response, and the puck is in the net.

It's physics, and chemistry, and.... magic?
W
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Old 07-07-2014, 08:14 AM   #41
lbb
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
\
As a beginner, I find it easier for myself to comprehend Aikido as a whole.
As a beginner, I found it easier to not try and comprehend aikido at all -- just do it. I understood myself, then and now, as the proverbial blind man touching a part of the elephant. Even assuming I understand the part, the part is not the whole.
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Old 07-07-2014, 08:38 AM   #42
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
As a beginner, I found it easier to not try and comprehend aikido at all -- just do it. I understood myself, then and now, as the proverbial blind man touching a part of the elephant. Even assuming I understand the part, the part is not the whole.
Somewhere out there is a great cartoon of aikidoists fondling an elephant.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-07-2014, 01:16 PM   #43
lbb
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

The more you fondle the part, the less you understand the whole...naaaah!
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Old 07-08-2014, 08:08 PM   #44
dps
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
"Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law
by John Thomas Read

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/BookPage.html

I am trying to decide whether to buy this book.

To that end I want to know if my understanding of this excerpt from the book (http://www.aikibojitsu.com/files/Asy..._Surface_2.pdf) is correct.

Simply put the katas are a way of tuning or harmonizing the practitioner's body with the bo or jo so that the practitioner "becomes one" with the bo or jo.

dps"

I was wondering if you found this book interesting?
The physics is all wrong.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ht=Aikibojitsu

dps
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Old 07-11-2014, 01:22 AM   #45
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I did in the end purchase and get through the book, the author was helpful in postage to overseas (Australia) and started writing a review...can't find it though...but will have another look.
I think the author is talented and has a clear progression of ideas and there are interesting/useful koan's along the way that i got value from.

The use of scientific nomenclature is quite non-traditional and that got in the way for me because i could see how it was being used, as it was different to my understanding (radio physics was my graduate work).
I think the nomenclature is used as a kind of language, wrapper or framework to get get across some ideas in a context, which was clearly helpful for the author in an autobiographical sense and to present a thematic development of ideas. I also found useful his work that i saw in the the aikiexpo videos to understand some of what he was saying.

It wasn't an easy read, but if your looking for insights, and if someone has taken the time to put their life's work in a book you can get value from it.
best,
dan

Last edited by danielajames : 07-11-2014 at 01:25 AM.

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Old 07-11-2014, 08:46 PM   #46
dps
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
I did in the end purchase and get through the book, the author was helpful in postage to overseas (Australia) and started writing a review...can't find it though...but will have another look.
I think the author is talented and has a clear progression of ideas and there are interesting/useful koan's along the way that i got value from.

The use of scientific nomenclature is quite non-traditional and that got in the way for me because i could see how it was being used, as it was different to my understanding (radio physics was my graduate work).
I think the nomenclature is used as a kind of language, wrapper or framework to get get across some ideas in a context, which was clearly helpful for the author in an autobiographical sense and to present a thematic development of ideas. I also found useful his work that i saw in the the aikiexpo videos to understand some of what he was saying.

It wasn't an easy read, but if your looking for insights, and if someone has taken the time to put their life's work in a book you can get value from it.
best,
dan
Thank You I will take another look at it.

dps
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Old 07-12-2014, 05:32 PM   #47
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

Gravity works.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 07-13-2014, 03:51 PM   #48
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

+1
Heaven and earth, in yo, ying yang, gravity and ground reaction force.

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 07-13-2014, 06:05 PM   #49
reza.n
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Re: Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"

I've practiced Aikido for about 3 years and I'm a beginner of course.
I've already felt that engineering-physics concept. Since I love physics, I see it, the forces vectors are so obvious and simultaneously are deeply hidden in the real act and performs.
But I think there will be a higher level when one practices more and it becomes like a language, when you talk your native language you never think about grammar or these sort of things, you just speak it and let the words out and you're sure that you use them correctly.
I think in higher levels the Aikido becomes that native language where there is no concepts of physics and engineering elements (albeit there would be) and it's just something through the blood, veins and muscles; the subconscious mind handle everything.
As I've already mentioned, I'm just a beginner and it's just a theory of mine
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