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Old 08-26-2014, 11:28 AM   #251
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Aiki has to begin in me..

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:10 PM   #252
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

First, I would argue that we are, in fact, largely a collection of non-Japanese culture individuals training in a Japanese art that uses Japanese culture and language in it transmission. So, in this sense, we are OK receiving information from a foreign culture.

Second, I would argue that our training methodology is dependent, somewhat, on direct transmission from individuals that represent that skill that we want to inherit. We attend seminars all the time where the material requires translation.

Third, Erick is an engineer. He went to school for so long to be an engineer it made his brain work wrong. You tell me scanning Wikipedia for some engineering things puts you on par with an engineer in understanding what Erick says? Sounds like someone stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. That's not the attraction to Erick's model. It's public consumption without responsibility or accountability. It's not competing with what you think. Are you going to fly to Pensacola and talk with Erick to make sure you understand his model? Are you going to redefine your aikido based on Erick's model? Why not?

At some point, we show our wu shu. We have this opportunity to show what we know about aiki. There is no internet forum that provides that opportunity. You grab each other, work out, get a beer. Sometimes you grab a lion, sometimes you grab a lamb, most of the time you get someone in the middle. If your training is not about grabbing lions and learning what they have to offer, fine.

If the "internal power" thing is not your thing, fine. Why spend time and effort to contrive incorrect comparative components or build prejudicial arguments. Declare with resounding confidence that IP is BS and what it is that you do is what you believe to be correct. If you come across an IP person, bar her path and challenge her. You may be surprised.

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:04 PM   #253
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
So, in this sense, we are OK receiving information from a foreign culture.

Third, Erick is an engineer. He went to school for so long to be an engineer it made his brain work wrong.

.....bar her path and challenge her.
I am not OK trying to understand information presented in a culture or language I don't understand.

Eric is an attorney and formal Naval Aviator.

The IP community is being challenged to present their ideas in a more comprehendible way.

dps
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:25 PM   #254
Chris Li
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I am not OK trying to understand information presented in a culture or language I don't understand.

Eric is an attorney and formal Naval Aviator.

The IP community is being challenged to present their ideas in a more comprehendible way.

dps
I'm not sure what being either an attorney or a Naval Aviator has to do with with Aikido or internal power. In any case, from my count on the thread more people are saying that the conventional Dan/ICMA explanations are comprehensible than not.

More to the point, those explanations are being presented by folks who can actually demonstrate these principles.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:47 PM   #255
dps
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post

More to the point, those explanations are being presented by folks who can actually demonstrate these principles.

Best,

Chris
But can't explain what is happening in a comprehendible way to a wider audience than this thread.

dps
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:55 PM   #256
Chris Li
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
But can't explain what is happening in a comprehendible way to a wider audience than this thread.

dps
You keep insisting on that, but the reality is that it's just that they're not comprehensible to you. As I said, I've spoken to many people outside of the thread who have no problem comprehending what he's talking about.

Are Erick's explanations really more useful? You might be able to look up the terms on Wikipedia (something you could do with Dan's terms also, by the way), but what will that get you where you want to go? If not, then the explanationa are worse than incomprehensible - they're useless.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-26-2014, 01:59 PM   #257
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Because neither ancient terminology that has worked for countless men across the ages - or the Star Trek-like technobabble that Erick presents, has been able to teach anyone Internal Power over the internet, I am working on presenting my own model of terminology based on natural principals that will enable anyone to learn Aiki and Internal Power...at home! No longer will you have to know the principals of heaven earth man or torsional sheer stress! And it can all be yours, for 5 easy payments of $49.99!

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Old 08-26-2014, 02:27 PM   #258
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i thought i posted Mike Sigman blog awhile back, http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21855. the information is on the internet. he got crayon pictures and video and so on and so forth. quite a bit of details on the how and why and what and so on. how much more do you want? anymore than that would be spoon feeding.

as far as time, money and obligation go, many of us do have them, in spade. *playing the violin softly in the background*

most of aikido seminars, some by very high rank aikido folks, had been a waste of my time and money. so far, none of the ip/is seminars that i went to was a waste.
Ya, what Phi said. Seriously.

I've been around a bit. I took some convincing to come around to what was being proposed by the IP camps was *that* different. But I did come around after many times hands on. And oddly enough I'm still not sure it's *that* different from what others were trying to do, it's more a question of degree. It's just sometimes a small degree of difference can result in a profound difference when instantiated. But I promised to quit arguing this point with folk, especially those who appear resistant. It's not my job to convince anyone else. And I think that like with most things worthwhile, the work needs to speak for itself.

And I have no problem with those who are defining things differently and who believe what's "important" or what's "really going on" is something else entirely. I've also got no problem with climate science deniers and those who think new earth creationism is somehow scientifically valid. Nope. But I ain't arguing the point. How's the expression go -- you can lead a horse to water but if the only way to make him drink is to suck it in through his hind end, maybe, just maybe it's not worth even trying... Or something like that.

And yes, I've been to a whole lot of seminars by a whole lot of people. Mainstream down to those crazy yokels doing funny stuff with their bellies while they're shaking really long pieces of PVC for no apparent reason. Oddly enough I find I've improved my understanding of my "mainstream" aspect of my art by playing with those folk doing goofy stuff who are outside it. But everyone has their own way of improving. Or guarding their cherished beliefs. We all do it.

Carry on...

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Old 08-26-2014, 02:29 PM   #259
Keith Larman
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
Aiki has to begin in me..
And yeah, that one too. Funny how so many similar things appear in so many disparate arts doing really cool stuff that looks so much like really good aikido. You'd think that maybe aikido doesn't and never had a monopoly on it. And maybe, just maybe many have taken it in new and different directions. No judgement is being made on that type of evolution, but it does tend to suggest that having a more nuanced, context specific and flexible understanding of what aiki "is" is probably in order.

Gotta go shake a stick...

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Old 08-26-2014, 03:51 PM   #260
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On perceptions of silence: signal to noise

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
...if they require a little work on the part of the reader, well, that's inherent in the difficulty of the material.
Yes and no. There are some excellent discussions and expositions on this topic here (standard disclaimer: not suggesting that I am in a position to know one way or the other), but where there is difficulty in tracking the pertinent points, to me it generally seems to have less to do with the nature of the material and more to do with the nature of the discussions themselves (for example, differing individual conventions of language being mistaken as insulting). I also think the call for testimonies and proofs of efficacy to defend ones position tends to be one of those things which generates too much of the noise that tends to often drown out the signal.
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:53 PM   #261
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
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I'm not sure what being either an attorney or a Naval Aviator has to do with with Aikido or internal power.
Well, I'll tell you, since you wonder.

Being a naval aviator -- and even more specifically flying helicopters -- schooled me in careful observation and development of complex, dynamic, multi-sensory spatial and kinesthetic tasks that are at the fringes of conscious perception. It taught me to be decently in awe of any potentially dangerous whole-body physical control task -- while breaking it down into its pieces and parts to learn it much better. It especially taught me ways of parsing the mechanics of a recalcitrant dynamic structure with counter-intuitive mechanics that will gladly kill you -- if you just blithely applied what you think you know. Methodologically this is little different. Just less well-defined to begin with, which is exactly the lack that I mean to better supply.

Being an attorney I have learned that good forensics requires openness to any admissible evidence, and that only patient peeling away of all the irrelevancies and impossible arguments will get to something like the truth.

Quote:
In any case, from my count on the thread more people are saying that the conventional Dan/ICMA explanations are comprehensible than not.
And I am one of them. He's not wrong and his choice of terminology and ideas trying to explain what he is doing does track major elements, in the main. The problem is that it is simply ad hoc -- and drawing out the concepts and connections to other objective sources of knowledge. His practice may be rigorous -- his conceptual frame work to relate it objectively isn't. Neither was Ueshiba's mode of explanation -- he is good company surely. No one can be everything to everyone. -Nor has anyone else in this art, so far, really formed kind of deeper connection to modern sources of objective knowledge in any consistent for that matter, really. It really is about time we fixed that.

Quote:
More to the point, those explanations are being presented by folks who can actually demonstrate these principles.
I am paid quite well for my time -- and I don't find what I am working on to be any waste of it -- because it provably -- and demonstrably -- is leading to places that are better known by doing it, and helping improve our training. Our little crowd gets better better with what I can explain and show them. I go with what I experience -- same as you, I expect.
Is it a horse race ? Is the ghost of General Forrest going to give the golden ticket to the "Fust with the most" ? If we wanted trophies, we sure picked the wrong art. Saotome is fond of saying your head is the trophy -- if you get to keep it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-26-2014, 11:13 PM   #262
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Third, Erick is an engineer.
Jack-leg engineer, but thanks all the same. I teared up reading it, ... really...

Quote:
Are you going to fly to Pensacola and talk with Erick to make sure you understand his model?
The point of the model is to make that unnecessary. Hands on training (IHTBF) is NOT unnecessary -- and I'll be the first to say that. Nobody ever learned to fly a plane while reading the control manual and the aerodynamics textbook. You have to sit in the seat and swipe out the cockpit with the stick a few times and scare yourself silly.

On the other hand, if you have tools to analyze -- for yourself -- why you fail when you DO FAIL -- and you MUST FAIL to learn ANYTHING -- you gain two things -- 1. a better margin to afford to fail safely, and so avoid the worst kinds of failure, and 2. An ability to self-correct -- once you grasp the goal and the tools to reach it. That way the path can be pursued more independently, and either more quickly or more thoroughly. Some are just trying to get to the top of the mountain -- some are trying to map the whole darn thing, and others are just looking for a good view for the picnic.

Quote:
Are you going to redefine your aikido based on Erick's model? Why not?
I certainly haven't gotten to that yet. Definition and description is necessarily BEFORE any prescription of anything as a remedy for specific improvements, much less systematic ideas about optimizing practice -- which is WAY down the road. What I am able to do now is give objective, physiologically and mechanically based observations that my students can then observe themselves doing or failing to and correct themselves. Not for everything by any means -- but there are some key themes that are more or less universally applicable.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-26-2014, 11:17 PM   #263
Chris Li
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Erick - everybody's got a resume, it doesn't mean anything as to whether the model being presented is valid or not, that was my point.

People challanged Dan, Mike, Ark, Sam, whoever to show that they know what they're talking about. They showed it and people have testified to it and they've also all shown that they can pass it on to some degree. You've done none of that. If you have the science background that you purport to use then you know that theories are good - but nobody really accepts it until the key suppositions can be shown experimentally. Show that you can do what those folks can do and/or that you can get other people to do it with your framework, that will show the value of it (or not). If your conceptual framework is actually superior you should be able to do that - or else it isn't surperior and then it's just internet chatter.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-27-2014, 07:15 AM   #264
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The point of the model is to make that unnecessary. Hands on training (IHTBF) is NOT unnecessary -- and I'll be the first to say that. Nobody ever learned to fly a plane while reading the control manual and the aerodynamics textbook. You have to sit in the seat and swipe out the cockpit with the stick a few times and scare yourself silly.

On the other hand, if you have tools to analyze -- for yourself -- why you fail when you DO FAIL -- and you MUST FAIL to learn ANYTHING -- you gain two things -- 1. a better margin to afford to fail safely, and so avoid the worst kinds of failure, and 2. An ability to self-correct -- once you grasp the goal and the tools to reach it. That way the path can be pursued more independently, and either more quickly or more thoroughly. Some are just trying to get to the top of the mountain -- some are trying to map the whole darn thing, and others are just looking for a good view for the picnic.
Erick, most of the stuffs you said went right over my head, but this i can wrap my brain around. i remembered reading about the early fighter plane pilots. until they came up with the flight simulator, those pilots paid with their lives learning how to fly. you need some sort of model first or you crash and burn.

just want to mention that i do appreciate the technical stuffs that you put up, even though most of that required me to think to greater degree than i wanted to. since i am a barbarian of sort, thinking isn't my strong suit. i prefer to hit folks in the head to stop the thinking all together.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:24 AM   #265
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Erick - everybody's got a resume, it doesn't mean anything as to whether the model being presented is valid or not, that was my point.

People challanged Dan, Mike, Ark, Sam, whoever to show that they know what they're talking about. They showed it and people have testified to it and they've also all shown that they can pass it on to some degree. You've done none of that. If you have the science background that you purport to use then you know that theories are good - but nobody really accepts it until the key suppositions can be shown experimentally. Show that you can do what those folks can do and/or that you can get other people to do it with your framework, that will show the value of it (or not). If your conceptual framework is actually superior you should be able to do that - or else it isn't surperior and then it's just internet chatter.
perhaps he can. perhaps he can't. doesn't mean the model isn't worthwhile of consideration. many of Einstein's theories couldn't be proven until much later. no Erick, i don't consider you in the same league as Einstein. so sorry. good sport player doesn't necessary make good coach and vice versa.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:37 AM   #266
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Back to the topic...Demonstrating aiki, demonstrating aikido.Same thing ?

Some random thoughts on my 57th birthday after 27 years of training in first at Kokikai aikido and then Berkshire Hills aikido where we teach Ki development and technique and believe that aiki is part of Aikido training....

It depends on who is talking.

It depends on how one describes Aiki and how one describes Aikido.

As we can see on this one thread of a never ending list of threads..there is no answer.
My question is... who really cares?

I don't see any separation of the two...others do. It is never going to be resolved because no one listens. It is just repetition of the same things over and over...check out the other threads on the subject. I guess at least now nobody gets kicked off for being mean.

I define aiki as the quality of Aikido that makes it different from other martial arts. It is the part that allows for connection and development of power to defend oneself. I hear on here how many people think that their Aikido is devoid of that and that they are looking for it in another place. Good for you.

I hear other people say that they understand what it is and are working on ways to develop it more and then share it with others. Good for you.

Then we hear the folks who say that there is only one way and that there is a new messiah. That is hard to hear all the time because it sounds like the people who say it have drunk the kool aid. It reminds me of a religion that says the only way to get to heaven is to do it the way that their leader say to.

Finding a path that works and sticking to that path is also a way.

For me aikido is different that other arts because there is no contest. It is all about conquering the self though training.
If we could let go of the idea that one way is the way...there could be interesting discussions that don't devolve into commercials.

There are so many people that don't post on Aikiweb any more. I wish they would. Part of training is being able to talk about the art with a variety of people. Shutting down and not discussing it because of how a few on here post deprives the rest of us from your point of view.

I know it is not easy because of how rude some folks can be. I find it interesting to watch my feelings about what is said and then to choose my responses. It is another way to practice aiki.

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Old 08-27-2014, 07:50 AM   #267
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

I was hoping that this would be dragged back to the original question. Might even repost my answer.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:52 AM   #268
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Happy birthday!
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Old 08-27-2014, 11:46 AM   #269
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Jack-leg engineer, but thanks all the same. I teared up reading it, ... really...

The point of the model is to make that unnecessary. Hands on training (IHTBF) is NOT unnecessary -- and I'll be the first to say that. Nobody ever learned to fly a plane while reading the control manual and the aerodynamics textbook. You have to sit in the seat and swipe out the cockpit with the stick a few times and scare yourself silly.

On the other hand, if you have tools to analyze -- for yourself -- why you fail when you DO FAIL -- and you MUST FAIL to learn ANYTHING -- you gain two things -- 1. a better margin to afford to fail safely, and so avoid the worst kinds of failure, and 2. An ability to self-correct -- once you grasp the goal and the tools to reach it. That way the path can be pursued more independently, and either more quickly or more thoroughly. Some are just trying to get to the top of the mountain -- some are trying to map the whole darn thing, and others are just looking for a good view for the picnic.

I certainly haven't gotten to that yet. Definition and description is necessarily BEFORE any prescription of anything as a remedy for specific improvements, much less systematic ideas about optimizing practice -- which is WAY down the road. What I am able to do now is give objective, physiologically and mechanically based observations that my students can then observe themselves doing or failing to and correct themselves. Not for everything by any means -- but there are some key themes that are more or less universally applicable.
Seriously, I almost inserted a "here's where Erick chuckles" when I wrote that. I figured you get a kick out of things and I am not sure people realize the extent of your education. It reminds me of a famous scene in My Cousin Vinny, when Joe Pesci qualifies Marissa Tome as an expert in automotive mechanics even though she is his legal assistant.

I'm a Southern ASU boy and there are people with whom I train that have something to share.
When I go to a seminar, I head straight over to grab. I respect what they are doing, I respect where they are at and I am try my hardest to pick up what they put down. There are also friends that do not have what I am looking for in aikido. That doesn't mean I won't be friends with them, only that they are not doing what I want to do. I am working to clarify what I look for, why and who has it.

First, I contend that there is a right answer. Or, at least a most right answer. Most people who train believe this and demonstrate it every day by choosing an organization, a dojo, an instructor and so on. If it really didn't matter we would not make these choices. But we do. I train in ASU because I feel Saotome Sensei and Ikeda sensei and a number of others in the organization are more right in what they do. Do I still train with other groups? Yep. Other arts, too.

I think some of this is soul-searching. We have ideologies and philosophies tying up what we think is aiki. We keep things loose so we are never confronted with a challenge to our ideology or philosophy. The old phrase about discussing religion and politics is almost too true in aikido - we are often discussing both when we talk about aiki. That makes us defensive of what we value, and tentative to speak what we feel.

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Old 08-27-2014, 12:53 PM   #270
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Seriously, I almost inserted a "here's where Erick chuckles" ... reminds me of a famous scene in My Cousin Vinny, when Joe Pesci qualifies Marissa Tome as an expert in automotive mechanics even though she is his legal assistant.
NO, no, no.... THIS ... this is where Erick chuckles....

Quote:
I'm a Southern ASU boy and there are people with whom I train that have something to share.
When I go to a seminar, I head straight over to grab. I respect what they are doing, I respect where they are at and I am try my hardest to pick up what they put down. There are also friends that do not have what I am looking for in aikido. That doesn't mean I won't be friends with them, only that they are not doing what I want to do. I am working to clarify what I look for, why and who has it.
One of the reasons I stopped going to many seminars -- (apart from work, work, family, life, and more work) -- is that without regard to particular persons -- they could very often SHOW me things -- but they couldn't seem TEACH them to me. Part of that is in me -- I need a model in my head to work through to any goal. None of them had any to offer.

Our dear departed Hooker Sensei -- who put my foot on the aikido path -- taught me not to care what anybody thinks if I know something to be true. Ikeda Shihan showed me what started me down the present leg of my journey. His subtle yet catasrophic collapse of me and others in that class were striking and -- in combination with that physical impression which I still recall -- Ikeda made three conceptual points: Rotation and oscillation are the same principle. Timing and spacing are the same things. And apparent scale of action and resulting power are inversely proportional. (He did not say it that way at all -- but these points were clear nonetheless). The light snapped on for a brief instance -- and I have been popping the flashbulbs to map the cave ever since.

These observations were profoundly suggestive of a whole body of related knowledge that I had learned -- and applied -- as a helicopter pilot. So far, Ikeda's guidance on these points has not proved wrong and has blossomed further and further into the areas first suggested -- both in concept and in application on the mat.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:31 PM   #271
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
perhaps he can. perhaps he can't. doesn't mean the model isn't worthwhile of consideration. many of Einstein's theories couldn't be proven until much later. no Erick, i don't consider you in the same league as Einstein. so sorry. good sport player doesn't necessary make good coach and vice versa.
I agree, but he's been touting this theories for a good many years - in all of those years we haven't heard of a result, not once. Further, he's not proposing this as a hypothesis, he states flatly that his model is a superior conceptual framework. That means that it must be (a) correct (and I can already see places in his Japanese where he is mistaken) and (b) capable of producing superior results. All I'm saying is, where are the results?

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-27-2014, 02:43 PM   #272
dps
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I agree, but he's been touting this theories for a good many years - in all of those years we haven't heard of a result, not once. Further, he's not proposing this as a hypothesis, he states flatly that his model is a superior conceptual framework. That means that it must be (a) correct (and I can already see places in his Japanese where he is mistaken) and (b) capable of producing superior results. All I'm saying is, where are the results?

Best,

Chris
IHTBF. Take a trip to Florida and visit the Big Green Drum dojo an feel what Eric is talking about.

dps
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:02 PM   #273
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Jean Hardy wrote: View Post
In a another thread somebody talked about demonstrating aiki on a uke. Is it the same thing than demonstrating aikido on a uke ?
And if it is not the same, can somebody explain the difference to me ?
Yes it is the same thing.

You learn aiki by the preliminary or warm up exercises and demonstrate the aiki you have learned with the techniques. This also applies to uke.

dps

Last edited by dps : 08-27-2014 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:15 PM   #274
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Hi folks,

I just wanted to remind people about the "AikiWeb Rules of Conduct":

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22168

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 08-27-2014, 03:24 PM   #275
Chris Li
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
IHTBF. Take a trip to Florida and visit the Big Green Drum dojo an feel what Eric is talking about.

dps
I've spoken to several folks who have - hence the question.

Best,

Chris

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