Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-29-2014, 06:59 AM   #26
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
Location: Tampa, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 174
United_States
Offline
Re:

Well, if Ki doesen't exist then there are no sardines, spam, or vegetarian spam. This is getting deep!!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 07:32 AM   #27
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,214
Offline
Talking Re:

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Don't be mislead by someone from internet, ki don't exist. It is only urban legend...
Didn't someone once say that the world was flat.....

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 08:22 AM   #28
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Didn't someone once say that the world was flat.....
Well at the risk of taking the un-pronounceable one's statement too seriously and of course your retort.

I would place Ki and flat earth in the same category - based on belief and at risk of being soundly debunked.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 08:31 AM   #29
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,817
United_States
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
After Bokken training, my front and middle deltoids are pumped to the max. Does being muscle bound affect being relaxed (bad word)?
it meant you are using localized arm muscle in the most normal way, i.e. like everyone else (non-martial). when i train with bokken or jo or axes/hammers, my legs, hips, and middle (below my sternum) tired before my upper body and arms. something you can try. hold your bokken in chudan/seigan position. have someone push the tip of the bokken toward you. imagine your body is like a giant balloon, michelin man, and let all the power of that push to into the ground beneath your feet. if you have tension in your body, then you will know from the feedback. so every time you swing the bokken, remember that feeling. it's what we called "bring the ground to the tip of your bokken". think of unbend able arm exercise, but with your arm now as long as the bokken or whatever weapon you held.

Quote:
I have been told from Japanese 7th Dan Aikido practitioners I have good Ki, I thought this means strength.
it could mean you have strong vitality, healthy, i.e. life force (doesn't mean that you know how to use it). or it could mean you have a strong feminine side in you.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 09:36 AM   #30
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 897
United_States
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Gee, I was proud of myself for the four second turnaround from reading to writing to posting....
Uh huh.

Let me answer with some negatives...

First, Ki can mean a bunch of things, vitality or energy is one, power is another. It is possible you're being complimented on a variety of things, none of which are your "strength," meaning your muscular strength.

Think about the different concepts of force management. Mechanically, you have simple machines like wheels, screws and wedges. There are a variety of ways to power those machines - a wheel and axle can move by gravity, manpower, horsepower, motorized power etc.

We (people) tend to move our limbs as a lever system (muscles contract and cause limbs to move). The source of lever-action mechanics in the body is muscular (contactors and extensors). Where all this fancy talk is going is to claim that the human body does not need to move with lever action and other methods exist that do this work. In this case, we are talking about building pressure and converting pressure into kinetic energy - the "imagine your arm is a hose filled with water" analogy is a sample of this management system. The key difference is a hose does not change its size, the pressure build is based upon pushing material (water) into a set space. The human body can create the same pressure by compressing the space around a set material (tissue). Your muscle in enclosed in a sheath of tissue (fascia) and the extension of your connective tissue compresses the muscle encased within the tissue, thus creating a potential store of energy (pressure) that can be released into a kinetic state.

IF you believe in this alternate mechanical system, then "relax" is designed to allow the muscles to be compressed by the tissue, rather than firing and resisting the compression. This is also the "fill yourself with ki," and a variety of other phrases we use. If you believe in that sort of thing. I actually have a bell that rings true for every child that believes in ki - at one time, all of my friends could hear its melodious sound but then, one by one, the bell ceased to ring for each of them. But if you believe in ki, the bell will still ring for you...

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 04:20 PM   #31
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 680
United_States
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I would place Ki and flat earth in the same category - based on belief and at risk of being soundly debunked.
Ki that is manifest as a result of having a unified mind and body is both real and demonstrable. And I'm not referring to the woo-woo I'll knock you down from 10 feet away nonsense. It's more of the, when you walk into a kokyu nage throw and it feels like nage just dropped a house on you despite being 50 pounds lighter than you and you feel like you've barely been touched, variety.

It's a shame that the charlatans get all the play and notoriety these days and that it has taken someone from outside the art to reintroduce Ki back into mainstream Aikido, renamed and repackaged though it may be.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 05:05 PM   #32
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Re: "take the strength out of your shoulders."

Relax

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 06:55 PM   #33
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,214
Offline
Re: "take the strength out of your shoulders."

relax the mind....

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 03:36 AM   #34
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 405
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
relax the mind....
Relaxing the mind and relaxing the body are two entirely different things that should never be confused, regardless of how you want to interpret relaxing the body.

Mentally, you should be friggin' Atlas, lifting the heavens while still with roots burrowing deep into the earth, or like a black hole of intent with force being chewed up as it spirals in with intent shooting back out the poles. Really, your mind should be a damned force of nature to be reckoned with. Become an avatar of the kami and all that jazz... remember? Where does the mind relax?

Removing stiffness in the body, especially the shoulders, is what allows that to work through the body.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 04:12 AM   #35
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 849
Germany
Online
Re:

Quote:
Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
"When you try taking the strength out of your shoulders, it often happens that your ki goes with it!"
Can someone please explain this sentence to me,
When you hear Endō sensei talking about "ki" for a start don't think of it in a too mystical or esoteric way.

Try at first to get a more practical meaning or understanding of what he is refering to. Because in everyday language Endō sensei uses the term "ki" in a very broad and unspecific way, which is a common Japanese habit, I think.

So here:
When sensei injured his shoulder and thereafter tried to move his uke without using the muscular strength of the shoulders, he simply lost a tool of "transmitting something" to his uke, a tool he was accustomed to. I think this experience can be reproduced easily?

In a next step you can then ask, what does "taking the strength out of the shoulders" mean, what does "ki" mean in a more specific sense and how can something be transmitted to aite without using strength? Endō sensei has created some exercises over the time which allow to explore those questions. And he has looked for a certain way of keiko and a certain way of how to move, to answer those questions.
When you compare this demonstration about twenty years ago
to his demo this year at the All Japan Aikido Demonstration you may get a glimpse of the direction of this development.

By now I see a lot of parallels between the aikidō of Endō sensei and the practice of qi gong:
Relaxation as a way of "opening" the joints and also the muscles to make them permeable. - This is completely different from relaxing before going to sleep. It to the contrary is a way of waking up the body, activating it.
The methods to relax which refer to the interdependence of mind/heart and body. - Relaxing the body by calming the mind. Calming the mind by relaxing the body.
The way of organizing one's body and the concept of moving by intent instead of muscular strength. - "Use yi not li."

(I've come to see Endō senseis understanding of "feeling - kimochi - 気持ち" to be equivalent to the Chinese understanding of "intent - yi - 意" in the context of his aikidō.
When you try to explore how your body changes and what you can do - first within your own body - by/when using kimochi/yi instead of "strength - jap. chikara/chin. li - 力" - here Endō sensei uses the same word - then you migth possibly get an idea of what can be meant by "qi/ki" in a more qualified sense.)

My experience with Endō senseis way of aikidō aswell as with qi gong is, that you don't need to ponder qi/ki. You just practice and maybe after a while you will experience something. And again after a while maybe you will learn to deal with it and use it in certain ways. There is no need - and what's more: no use - to think about it. It's just a matter of personal experience. - At least I think so.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 04:31 AM   #36
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 849
Germany
Online
Re:

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Where does the mind relax?
To become "a damned force of nature" (love your poetry ) it has to let go the mundane thoughts, sorrows and considerations that overcloud and distract it. Relaxing, i.e. calming the mind does not mean to cut it off. But open it up, to free it.

Quote:
Removing stiffness in the body, especially the shoulders, is what allows that to work through the body.
Yes!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 06:03 AM   #37
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 405
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
To become "a damned force of nature" (love your poetry ) it has to let go the mundane thoughts, sorrows and considerations that overcloud and distract it. Relaxing, i.e. calming the mind does not mean to cut it off. But open it up, to free it.

Yes!
So long as calm is interpreted maybe more as evenness, as what was that thing that crazy old man who we occasionally pay homage to before handwaving and politely dismissing said - a union of opposites? - but not as a lack of will. I have been stingingly called 'lazy' of mind in jest by a certain someone enough to know that there needs to be Herculean intent bubbling beneath the surface, and even then, it is usually never enough, all the while the body struggles to remove the roadblocks to letting it out. Always need more!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 07:20 AM   #38
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,214
Offline
Re: "take the strength out of your shoulders."

...move the body guided by the mind that knows without thinking

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 07:41 AM   #39
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,817
United_States
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
relax the mind....
i have heard that some distilled fermented stuffs and certain type of plants/weeds/mushrooms really help relaxing the mind. Didn't O Sensei ate lots of mushrooms at Iwama? Didn't the old man talk to various kami afterward in order to get some aiki?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 09:06 AM   #40
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,829
United_States
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Mentally, you should be friggin' Atlas, lifting the heavens while still with roots burrowing deep into the earth, or like a black hole of intent with force being chewed up as it spirals in with intent shooting back out the poles. Really, your mind should be a damned force of nature to be reckoned with. Become an avatar of the kami and all that jazz... remember? Where does the mind relax?
It depends on how you define "relax". A "black hole of intent" is more or less the opposite of the goal of many meditation practices, for example.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 10:37 AM   #41
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 849
Germany
Online
Re:

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
So long as calm is interpreted maybe more as evenness, ... a union of opposites?
Yes. Exactly.
So that intent/kimochi can become clear, sharp and intense, concentrated. And not led astray by whatever thoughts are going round and round in our everworking brains.

It's like a clear sky, no clouds, just deep blue, powerfull energie. (So bright actually, that I have to wear sunglasses ...)

Be it the body or be it the heart/mind: Relaxing, letting go, releasing energizes, empowers. If it makes lazy, tired or diffuse it's not the way of relaxition the Chinese call sung. (And which we should strive for in our practice, I think.)
So mushrooms is exactly the opposite, I'm afraid. There are notices about what o sensei ate: Usually he used to take meals which did not fill the belly and did not make the brain dizzy or the body tired. No patronage here to be found I'm afraid.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 03:13 PM   #42
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,148
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
. Really, your mind should be a damned force of nature to be reckoned with. Become an avatar of the kami and all that jazz... remember? Where does the mind relax?

Removing stiffness in the body, especially the shoulders, is what allows that to work through the body.
Woah, that a great description! Avatar of the kami - sounds right on the spot....

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2014, 04:51 PM   #43
JP3
 
JP3's Avatar
Dojo: Wasabi Dojo
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 178
United_States
Offline
Re: "take the strength out of your shoulders."

On the whole "is ki real" thing, again, I have this one sort of concept I use to understand the eastern-style descriptions, which do sound a bit mystical to the western, scientific-method trained mind -- which is a lot of folks.

My own concept of ki is one's getting to a state of trained muscle memory where no extra effort is used to place the body - while moving in and with and sometimes against (yes, against - that's where a lot of our explosive-looking techniques live) the uke/opponent while at the same time holding the posture of the body and extremeties (if extremeties are used in the technique being examined) in the most efficient way possible. Oftentimes, I've found this to be standing up straight, keeping my hands up in front of myself arms mostly extended but not locked out, not grabbing/gripping at all (if tied up with someone grappling, using hooked fingers only, no hand clamps, like that) initiating movement from the center of the body (there's your hips, folks -- there's a LOT of muscle power working in/around/through the pelvis) and keeping that movement out of the upper torso (no leaning over).

When all those things happen in one of my people, usually good things happen, which, as stated earlier, usually ends up with an incredulous look on his/her face and a stammered... "... but I didn't really do anything."

Neat stuff. Feeling Nothing = Ki? I dunno, I just work here.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2014, 05:07 PM   #44
Robert Cowham
Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
Location: London, UK
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 245
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
When you hear Endō sensei talking about "ki" for a start don't think of it in a too mystical or esoteric way.
:
My experience with Endō senseis way of aikidō as well as with qi gong is, that you don't need to ponder qi/ki. You just practice and maybe after a while you will experience something. And again after a while maybe you will learn to deal with it and use it in certain ways. There is no need - and what's more: no use - to think about it. It's just a matter of personal experience. - At least I think so.
I am glad you "think" so

Personally I agree that there is a lot of just experience required. And yet in preparation for that I believe that thinking is absolutely required too. Most of my insights come during practice with others. But they are often based on thoughts during personal practice where I am thinking hard....
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 02:24 AM   #45
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 849
Germany
Online
Re:

Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
Personally I agree that there is a lot of just experience required. And yet in preparation for that I believe that thinking is absolutely required too.

Yes, I'm thinking a lot. Reading a lot. Taoist classics about neidan, qi gong ... He also did.
There are the discussions with my teacher, pondering the explanations of Dan, listening to the lectures of Endō sensei ...

It helps a lot to have at least an idea of what to look for. And to have at least an idea of what the old have experienced. Maybe it's impossible to get something without knowing something. Well, actually I think it is not possible.
But I also know that you get nothing from just pondering, thinking, "knowing". You have to do it, to experience it, to make it live. And very often you understand just by doing. You do, you read - it suddenly fits, the words "open up".

So we have a circle we walk, round and round, while moving on ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 03:25 AM   #46
Riai Maori
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
New Zealand-Maori
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
When you hear Endō sensei talking about "ki" for a start don't think of it in a too mystical or esoteric way.
Thank you for the reply and diagnostics to my question. Greatly appreciated. Are you a student of Endo Sensei? Myself I train under the umbrella of Shihan Nadeau who visits New Zealand on a regular basis. Cheers

Last edited by Riai Maori : 06-01-2014 at 03:38 AM.

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 03:36 AM   #47
Riai Maori
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
New Zealand-Maori
Offline
Smile Re:

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
First, Ki can mean a bunch of things, vitality or energy is one, power is another. It is possible you're being complimented on a variety of things, none of which are your "strength," meaning your muscular strength.
Thank you Jon for this clarification and the muscle mechanics behind Kinetic energy. Hence the "inch punch". "You can ring my bell bell bell ring my my bell ding a ling" (Pointer Sisters) Cheers to you!

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 03:37 AM   #48
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 849
Germany
Online
Re:

Quote:
Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
Are you a student of Endo Sensei?
I try to follow Endō sensei for some years know. I do not belong to the group of his "official" students. My direct teacher here in Germany does.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 06-01-2014 at 03:42 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 03:51 AM   #49
Riai Maori
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
New Zealand-Maori
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
it meant you are using localized arm muscle in the most normal way, i.e. like everyone else (non-martial). when i train with bokken or jo or axes/hammers, my legs, hips, and middle (below my sternum) tired before my upper body and arms. something you can try. hold your bokken in chudan/seigan position. have someone push the tip of the bokken toward you. imagine your body is like a giant balloon, michelin man, and let all the power of that push to into the ground beneath your feet. if you have tension in your body, then you will know from the feedback. so every time you swing the bokken, remember that feeling. it's what we called "bring the ground to the tip of your bokken". think of unbend able arm exercise, but with your arm now as long as the bokken or whatever weapon you held.

it could mean you have strong vitality, healthy, i.e. life force (doesn't mean that you know how to use it). or it could mean you have a strong feminine side in you.
A big thanks to you sir. I have taken on board your training advice for the Bokken. I hope Sensei sees the improvement, I am sure he will. As always I never repeat what is said to me here while training on the mat. Mums the word and actions speak louder than words. I would love to train with you? Why? Because you're a humorous man Daniel Boone!

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 04:37 AM   #50
Riai Maori
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
New Zealand-Maori
Offline
Re:

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I try to follow Endō sensei for some years know. I do not belong to the group of his "official" students. My direct teacher here in Germany does.
A second generation student of Endo Sensei is good for me. Thanks again.

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
It's not You, It's Me jonreading Internal Training in Aikido 67 10-30-2013 12:38 PM
Might Isn't Right, But Strong Isn't Wrong OwlMatt External Aikido Blog Posts 6 07-15-2012 06:36 AM
The strength of the Japanese spirit Guillaume Erard External Aikido Blog Posts 0 01-17-2011 01:36 PM
Internal (Hunyuan) Strength from a Yi Chuan Perspective yichuan Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 27 03-26-2010 10:32 AM
Aikido With an Attitude: The Other Intenal Strength (or Weakness) SeiserL Columns 10 05-29-2007 07:16 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:48 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate