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Old 05-12-2014, 11:02 PM   #1
Mihaly Dobroka
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YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Kanaya Shihan's Aikido:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nREG...MWgkqAobsoXRkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXUp...MWgkqAobsoXRkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyY2...MWgkqAobsoXRkQ

He started Aikido 43 years ago in Iwama Aikido style and also trained in the Iwama Dojo many times under Saito Morihiro sensei. He wanted to do Aikido as the Founder did on his last years and practiced with most of the direct students of the Founder, such as Sunadomri Kanshu, Sasaki Masando, Yamaguchi Seigo, Watanabe Nobuyuki, Endo Seishiro and so on.
Now he is a 6th dan Aikikai Shihan of Aomori Prefecture Aikido Union and frequently travel to South-Korea and Hong-Kong to teach Aikido seminars.

What are your thoughts on his Aikido?

Mihaly
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Old 05-13-2014, 04:19 PM   #2
Robert Cowham
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Presuming that's you as uke - you are very flexible!

As to Kanaya sensei, it would be interesting to feel some of the lighter/no touch stuff going on - difficult to make a judgement from video.
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Old 05-13-2014, 05:28 PM   #3
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Dear Mihaly,
Another example of no touch aikido a la Watanabe Sensei.I must confess I do not like this type of aikido.I will say that Uke[you?] are very flexible.I guess I would have to experience the waza to gauge whether the waza has substance or whatever.Call me a sceptic if you wish.Nice of you to post this for our edification/enjoyment.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:02 PM   #4
asiawide
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

He visited Korea many times. I didn't have a chance to join his seminar. Here is another short clip of him taken in Korea.

http://youtu.be/A14-zuTu0RM

It doesn't matter whether it's real or fake as long as me and other didn't experience him. I'm more interested in how he developed his skill.

Jaemin
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:50 AM   #5
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Jaemin Yu wrote: View Post
He visited Korea many times. I didn't have a chance to join his seminar. Here is another short clip of him taken in Korea.

http://youtu.be/A14-zuTu0RM

It doesn't matter whether it's real or fake as long as me and other didn't experience him. I'm more interested in how he developed his skill.

Jaemin
Dear Jaemin, I do not quite understand what you state in the last few sentences of your blog.Are you saying that as long as the gentleman does not use you and the other students it would be ok regardless whether the waza was real or fake?In my book the waza should be real.Why would you or anyone else want to be interested in how the instructor developed his skills if by chance [and I am not saying the aikido shown is phony ] is fake?Maybe you could enlighten me here and explain further what you mean?Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-14-2014, 03:14 AM   #6
asiawide
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Jaemin, I do not quite understand what you state in the last few sentences of your blog.Are you saying that as long as the gentleman does not use you and the other students it would be ok regardless whether the waza was real or fake?In my book the waza should be real.Why would you or anyone else want to be interested in how the instructor developed his skills if by chance [and I am not saying the aikido shown is phony ] is fake?Maybe you could enlighten me here and explain further what you mean?Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
Hi,

We don't know whether it's real or fake. Maybe it looks so but when I showed even All Nippon Aikido demo to my friends, 99% of them say, 'ugh... is it real?' I mean we have no benefit here by talking whether it's real or fake.

My assumption is that it's not fake but the uke is just compliant, especially the shihan moves from static position so easily in the video. And my peers who experienced him said he's good. Second hand experience but much closer to me than watching youtube video. Then I'm interested in how he trained himself for doing it.

Thanks,
Jaemin
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Old 05-14-2014, 04:04 AM   #7
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

SSDD

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Old 05-14-2014, 05:46 AM   #8
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Jaemin Yu wrote: View Post
Hi,

We don't know whether it's real or fake. Maybe it looks so but when I showed even All Nippon Aikido demo to my friends, 99% of them say, 'ugh... is it real?' I mean we have no benefit here by talking whether it's real or fake.

My assumption is that it's not fake but the uke is just compliant, especially the shihan moves from static position so easily in the video. And my peers who experienced him said he's good. Second hand experience but much closer to me than watching youtube video. Then I'm interested in how he trained himself for doing it.

Thanks,
Jaemin
Dear Jaemin,
Like you say without actually trainin with Kanaya Sensei we can only surmise whether he has a compliant uke or his waza is real/fake.Al we can do is watch the clip.I think the Uke is very compliant.I view this demo with a bit of scepticism.Even Yamaguchi Sensei did not present his waza in this manner. Kanaja Sensei seems to me to be an advocate for what one might call the soft/no contact style of Aikido. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:50 AM   #9
hughrbeyer
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

I'd love to know if he does the giant wind-up for demonstration purposes, to try to show what's really going on, or if he's depending on it. I'm inclined to think the former.

The thing about causing uke to lock up looks a lot like stuff Okamoto does, which makes me wonder where he learned it. I'm skeptical of it too, and it makes me suspicious of the rest of the video. But Okamoto has the respect of people I trust, so I wouldn't reject it out of hand.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 05-14-2014, 01:38 PM   #10
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Mihaly,
Another example of no touch aikido a la Watanabe Sensei.I must confess I do not like this type of aikido.I will say that Uke[you?] are very flexible.I guess I would have to experience the waza to gauge whether the waza has substance or whatever.Call me a sceptic if you wish.Nice of you to post this for our edification/enjoyment.Cheers, Joe.
I couldn't agree more. Sadly, it's this sort of "no touch", woo-woo nonsense that gives Aikido a bad name. You can't move something without touching it in some form or fashion. The principals of Newtonian motion apply to all objects in the universe at all times. They're not just a suggestions, they're the law. Just like gravity.
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Old 05-14-2014, 11:31 PM   #11
Mario Tobias
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

I havn't trained with this sensei yet but his actions look credible. We shouldn't dismiss it because it looks fake. I think we need to be open to what true aikido offers us. This is because I believe there is true aikido and there is typical aikido which 99.9% of us practice. In typical aikido we have our own notions (most likely misguided) of what aikido forms should be and look like but IMHO these outer forms are just offering us a hint/glimpse for what aikido truly is and in my opinon not aikido (YET). It is also my belief that 99.9% of us do not actually understand what aikido really is and only a handful of people do know. Even Osensei acknowledges during the end of his days that he's only begun to understand what aikido truly is. What does he mean when he says this and what then was he doing 60 years before? I think this was not out of humility but his understanding that there was much much more to aikido.

Hikitsuchi-sensei which I think is 10th dan? also does this no-touch aikido but surprisingly, if you understand some of his principles, these no touch techniques are actually reproducible through experimentation with non compliant ukes. Shioda-sensei's minimalist aikido is also another proof since it looks magical. I personally have thrown ukes around with a twist of the hara or a wrist. Not sure if it's real but I do know is that ukes were non compliant.

Not opening up to the possibilities means that one's aikido will just plateau and be ordinary as the 99.9% of us.

There are a lot of mysteries in this world which cannot be explained. Osensei, hikitsuchi sensei, shioda sensei, Kyuzo Mifune(god of judo) are some of these mysteries we need to understand. If we argue that we can explain aikido and know what aikido truly is, why isn't everybody as good as these people? What I can confidently say is that the difference between them and the rest of us is that they were open to the possiblities and they have made what seemed impossible, possible.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 05-14-2014 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 05-15-2014, 07:27 AM   #12
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
I havn't trained with this sensei yet but his actions look credible. We shouldn't dismiss it because it looks fake. I think we need to be open to what true aikido offers us. This is because I believe there is true aikido and there is typical aikido which 99.9% of us practice. In typical aikido we have our own notions (most likely misguided) of what aikido forms should be and look like but IMHO these outer forms are just offering us a hint/glimpse for what aikido truly is and in my opinon not aikido (YET). It is also my belief that 99.9% of us do not actually understand what aikido really is and only a handful of people do know. Even Osensei acknowledges during the end of his days that he's only begun to understand what aikido truly is. What does he mean when he says this and what then was he doing 60 years before? I think this was not out of humility but his understanding that there was much much more to aikido.

Hikitsuchi-sensei which I think is 10th dan? also does this no-touch aikido but surprisingly, if you understand some of his principles, these no touch techniques are actually reproducible through experimentation with non compliant ukes. Shioda-sensei's minimalist aikido is also another proof since it looks magical. I personally have thrown ukes around with a twist of the hara or a wrist. Not sure if it's real but I do know is that ukes were non compliant.

Not opening up to the possibilities means that one's aikido will just plateau and be ordinary as the 99.9% of us.

There are a lot of mysteries in this world which cannot be explained. Osensei, hikitsuchi sensei, shioda sensei, Kyuzo Mifune(god of judo) are some of these mysteries we need to understand. If we argue that we can explain aikido and know what aikido truly is, why isn't everybody as good as these people? What I can confidently say is that the difference between them and the rest of us is that they were open to the possiblities and they have made what seemed impossible, possible.
Dear Mario. 5
There are many reasons why the 99.9% of people practicing aikido in your opinion do not grasp or 'understand what aikido is '.
Most people do not do Aikido as a full time job.Most people do not have drive or a anxious to learn aikido.In my opinion most people simply view aikido as a pastime /hobby /keep fit.
There is also the question of who thee average person trains under.How many studeents for example have access to high level instructors? How many students have had first hand hands on experience with O Sensei's Uchi Deshi ?How many people can train each /every day , attend courses, live in a dojo as an uchideshi, and train for 3/5 hrs each day?This is the type of training only a few people will do.Even if you are a pro Aikidoka, you are normally teaching students, not quite the same as getting a hard time from a senior.
The men you use as a yardstick did aikido /judo full time.They had the drive to push their bodies to the limit. These men came from a different breed of men.Nowadays the society we live in has changed .People nowadays have more options. Fitness clubs/MMA, yoga etc all have an impact on Aikido recruitment of new blood.
Aikido in many cases has been diluted. Some people promoting Aikido now seem to be promoting Aikido unlike any other type of Aikido I have ever seen in over 40years studying Aikido.Funnily enough ribbon /ki / ballroom dancers collect students in droves while the 'non dancers'
instructor usually have very few students.
Aikido for me come down to a few basic things.You need to be hungry for knowledge.You need to train diligently with the best instructor/s you can find.You have to [regrettably }on occasion put your domestic affairs to one side and put your responsibilities as a teacher/student first.Not everyone wants to do this.Pain /sacrifice and monetary issues make Aikido for most a hard road.I am open minded as the next person, but if /when I see Aikido being performed in a manner which defies logic.eg throwing Ukes from a distance without touch, watching /hearing long debates about Ki power and chit chat about mystic stuff I tend to get a headache or I go and have a beer.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-15-2014, 09:45 AM   #13
Cliff Judge
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

I think these videos are great. Excellent expression of Aiki. There are places that seem a bit clumsy but places where it is just brilliant. The ukemi is really good here, uke is moving smoothly and responsively to what the instructor is doing, and the instructor is able to guide him with clean, smooth movements and fit right in.

Okay so, the rest of you. Question. I really don't understand this. Why do people see demonstrations like this and say things like "that isn't real" or "how can that be real?" What do you even mean by real? Do you mean like, this is something the instructor could do to a burglar or mugger? I think that's what you mean, but it is so obviously not meant to be a practical application to me.

When I see something like this, it is obviously a demonstration of principle. He's saying, "when this kind of energy comes, you move like this, and shape it this way, and you want this general kind of thing to happen. See, the energy moves this way."

This is exactly what you see Ueshiba, Horikawa, etc doing in videos. It's not an application, it's not even a training exercise, it's supposed to provide an image for students to pick up on, so they can "steal the technique". Mirror neurons, people. Presumably uke gets to feel something interesting as well that he can go chew on.

From everything I have read this is how Takeda taught, though he had kata that he passed on directly to his close students - kata which were designed to teach aiki principles and were not applications. This is how Osensei taught as well.

Now personally, I think it takes a certain kind of personality to teach this way, I can understand if you don't see that in yourself or you worry that it is not valuable to your students, and you prefer "more practical" or "less collusive" training. But IMO that attitude moves you more towards jujutsu and away from Aiki. I actually fall somewhere in the middle personally - I think watching this kind of demonstration is only valuable if it is integrated with clearly structured training drills and less cooperative practice.

I am just saying, you really need to recognize what this is before you judge its "realness". And IMO, this is the tradition right here, this is what Takeda and Osensei were both doing when they got on the mat with a bunch of students who came to see the amazing mystical aiki.

Last edited by Cliff Judge : 05-15-2014 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:03 AM   #14
NagaBaba
 
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Mihaly Dobroka wrote: View Post

What are your thoughts on his Aikido?

Mihaly
This is pure nonsense. The guy is neglecting almost all martial principles. Another aiki bunny example, don't waste your time watching these videos.
Run away without looking back.

Nagababa

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Old 05-15-2014, 01:16 PM   #15
Gerardo Torres
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I'd love to know if he does the giant wind-up for demonstration purposes, to try to show what's really going on, or if he's depending on it. I'm inclined to think the former.

The thing about causing uke to lock up looks a lot like stuff Okamoto does, which makes me wonder where he learned it. I'm skeptical of it too, and it makes me suspicious of the rest of the video. But Okamoto has the respect of people I trust, so I wouldn't reject it out of hand.
Yeah I'm with Hugh here. I'd need more (first-hand) information before forming a final opiinion. Having felt a student of Okamoto, some seemingly 'fake' skills can be very real and martially impressive.

There are some aikido sensei who train similarly to the Kanaya videos. From what I've experienced in students, there are some short-term benefits to training like this -- relaxation, flexibility, 'sensitivity'. And it can also be a lot of fun. That said I think it's a limited training model for learning high-level skills, what with the uke being conditioned to compromise their own structure even before contact is made (is an uke really sensitive if he reacts equally dramatically to touch or no touch input, or just assuming a role?). And there's always the danger of external mimicry of the teacher's mannerisms without really getting the 'meat' of it, but that's probably true of any aikido style.
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Old 05-16-2014, 02:38 AM   #16
sadams122
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Not to judge, his stuff looks nice but would like to see it with an uke with more intent than a moth; a more balanced demonstration of his art...
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Old 05-16-2014, 11:01 AM   #17
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Stephen Adams wrote: View Post
Not to judge, his stuff looks nice but would like to see it with an uke with more intent than a moth; a more balanced demonstration of his art...
HI Stephen,
Would not like to bet against the moth if the moth got a bit angry.My old judo teacher used to say some guys could not throw a fly with its legs tied. Been to Hilo a few years ago, saw a dojo on Hilo.Wish I could have met you guys.Nice place.I think I bought some chocolate ther or was it a big chasm like the Grand Canyon I saw?Visited Lahaina, Hilo,Honolulu, Escondido.Like the place .Only disappointment I never me Steve McGarret.[Hawaii 50]Jack Lord.Cheers, Joe
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Old 05-16-2014, 11:12 AM   #18
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
This is pure nonsense. The guy is neglecting almost all martial principles. Another aiki bunny example, don't waste your time watching these videos.
Run away without looking back.
Dear Naga Baba,
Did you not perceive the exceptional Ki power shown here?The flow of Ki made Niagara Falls look like a tap that needed a new washer. Uke could have given a display of a one man aikido demo .Great stuff, all done with not a bead of sweat or a hair out of place.How is this feat done I ask myself?If anyone cares to tell me how this skill can be acquired send your replies to me on a 20$ note.Credit card donations not accepted. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-16-2014, 04:01 PM   #19
Cliff Judge
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Do you guys feel the same way about Osensei when you watch him on video? Really seems like the same kinda thing to me, not a demonstration of "what I can do" but rather a demonstration of "the movement of aiki" or something like that. Something more abstract.
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Old 05-16-2014, 05:45 PM   #20
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Do you guys feel the same way about Osensei when you watch him on video? Really seems like the same kinda thing to me, not a demonstration of "what I can do" but rather a demonstration of "the movement of aiki" or something like that. Something more abstract.
Hi Cliff,
Short answer -NO. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-16-2014, 11:08 PM   #21
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
How is this feat done I ask myself?If anyone cares to tell me how this skill can be acquired send your replies to me on a 20$ note.Credit card donations not accepted. Cheers, Joe.
No one can tell you how it's done Joe. You have to be on the receiving end in order to feel his stuff (or lack of same). If your question was meant more than tongue-in-cheek, perhaps you can look him up if he's ever in your neighborhood and experience him yourself. Coming from a skeptic, your reaction to his abilities would make for an interesting read.

Ron

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Old 05-17-2014, 02:40 AM   #22
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
No one can tell you how it's done Joe. You have to be on the receiving end in order to feel his stuff (or lack of same). If your question was meant more than tongue-in-cheek, perhaps you can look him up if he's ever in your neighborhood and experience him yourself. Coming from a skeptic, your reaction to his abilities would make for an interesting read.

Ron
Hi Mr Ragusa/Ron,
I do agree that you have to experience the waza in a hands on situation.Unfortunately what we have here is a video,You see the form but this I agree does not reveal the essence of the stuff.I can only judge from the video.I may well be wrong.I do occasionally write with a very large tongue in my cheek.
If indeed Kanaya Sensei visited my area the N.E. of England I would certainly consider meeting him and finding out first hand how he does his Aikido.If indeed he was an excellent Aikidoka [which he might well be ]I am perfectly willingl to eat my trilby,suitably seasoned with salt and pepper.
I take it that you have experience of being Uke for Kanaya Sensei?Maybe you might care to share your experiences with others on this Forum? All the Best, Joe A.K.A Doubting Thomas.
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Old 05-17-2014, 03:05 AM   #23
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
How is this feat done I ask myself?
There are some teachers around who could help you answer your question. Yamashima sensei, Endō sensei or Ikeda sensei e.g., all visit Europe on a regular base so you might be able to grab one of them.

But as far as I know, this guy has a profound background in Iwama ryū and used to practice with the late Saito sensei? So maybe first you should find some qualified teacher of Iwama ryū to work on the basics for some years ...

Quote:
Mihaly Dobroka wrote: View Post
What are your thoughts on his Aikido?
Looks familiar.
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Old 05-17-2014, 04:48 AM   #24
Riai Maori
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
There are some teachers around who could help you answer your question. Yamashima sensei, Endō sensei or Ikeda sensei e.g., all visit Europe on a regular base so you might be able to grab one of them.

But as far as I know, this guy has a profound background in Iwama ryū and used to practice with the late Saito sensei? So maybe first you should find some qualified teacher of Iwama ryū to work on the basics for some years ...

Looks familiar.
Is this advice from your first hand knowledge whilst being uke with the Aikido teachers you have mentioned?

Last edited by Riai Maori : 05-17-2014 at 04:51 AM. Reason: Spelling

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Old 05-17-2014, 07:16 AM   #25
Cliff Judge
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Cliff,
Short answer -NO. Cheers, Joe.
But this is these are the same kind of demo as those.
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