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Old 08-14-2002, 02:36 PM   #1
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Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Is there a database/list of names of people who were actually trained by Morihei Ueshiba himself?

Thank you in advance...
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Old 08-14-2002, 04:51 PM   #2
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Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Quote:
() wrote:
Is there a database/list of names of people who were actually trained by Morihei Ueshiba himself?
http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog...ls.asp?id=CH01

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 08-15-2002, 03:24 AM   #3
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Smile

does anybody have one thats legable?

pete


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Old 08-15-2002, 05:07 AM   #4
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I once stumbled upon this site which I think might answer your question to a certain extend:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Loge/1419/Deshi.htm

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

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Old 08-15-2002, 01:00 PM   #5
Kami
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Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Quote:
() wrote:
Is there a database/list of names of people who were actually trained by Morihei Ueshiba himself?

Thank you in advance...
KAMI : The term UCHIDESHI means someone which lives with and trains only with a master. According to PETER GOLDSBURY, of the International Aikido Federation, only the students of pre-war Aikido were really uchideshi. All others, including Saito Sensei, were not uchideshi and there were no uchideshi of the post-war Aikido. All of them were deshi of the Aikikai and trained with many teachers. As someone stated before this is not mean to demerit them but just to place things in their context.

As soon as I can I will present a list (perhaps also incomplete) of the main uchideshi at the Kobukan Dojo. Some of them are :

- MINORU MOCHIZUKI

- YOSHIO SUGINO

- KENJI TOMIKI

and many others.

Yoshimitsu Yamada, Seiichi Sugano, Nobuyoshi Tamura and a few others, in spite of being considered uchideshi of the founder and their importance to Aikido, were really deshi of the Aikikai, under Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei.

Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 08-16-2002, 08:33 PM   #6
ChrisDuSCAMB
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Re: Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Quote:
Ubaldo Alcantara (Kami) wrote:
All others, including Saito Sensei, were not uchideshi and there were no uchideshi of the post-war Aikido. All of them were deshi of the Aikikai and trained with many teachers. As someone stated before this is not mean to demerit them but just to place things in their context.
Kami,

I am very surprised when you say that Saito sensei was not an UCHIDESHI of O'Sensei.

I believe and understand that he lives and trains near O'Sensei at Iwama until the last days of O'Sensei.

Is it false ?

I have the luck to see and discuss often with Tamura sensei. The next time, I can speak with him, I will ask him if he was an UCHIDESHI of O'sensei or of the Akikai....

When he will answer to me, I will give you it.

Bye

Chris
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Old 08-16-2002, 09:48 PM   #7
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Re: Re: Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Chris - before you ask please take the post in context. The original question was "who was exclusively trained by Ueshiba M." and this was answered. There is a very strict definition of what uchideshi is and of course a less strict definition. Strictly speaking both Saito and Tamura do not fit the definition but I don't think anybody is going to argue that both these men came as close to that strict definition as you are going to get.

I would love to hear what Tamura has to say on the matter but don't ask him as if we are denying his relationship to the founder but rather how the relationships changed pre and post WWII.

I have been told the last deshi of Ueshiba M. was Kobayashi H. and that was definately after the war. In the strictest of senses he was also not uchideshi in that the name also implies a live in relationship. Did any of the three deshi mentioned by Ubaldo actually live with the founder?


Quote:
Christophe Perez (ChrisDuSCAMB) wrote:
Kami,

I am very surprised when you say that Saito sensei was not an UCHIDESHI of O'Sensei.

I believe and understand that he lives and trains near O'Sensei at Iwama until the last days of O'Sensei.

Is it false ?

I have the luck to see and discuss often with Tamura sensei. The next time, I can speak with him, I will ask him if he was an UCHIDESHI of O'sensei or of the Akikai....

When he will answer to me, I will give you it.

Bye

Chris

Last edited by PeterR : 08-16-2002 at 10:38 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-17-2002, 02:04 AM   #8
Kami
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Cool Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Hello, Peter R!

It's definitely difficult to state some points about Shihan when people take personally what we said as "attacks" and menace to "ask Shihan"...

I agree with what you have stated. Japanese are known to be quite flexible in their statements, the truth being less important than the "embellishment" of the story...It's not lies as we understand them . It's just that, in the East, it's more important the story than the hard facts. And as for Shihan's precision of statements, we should just remember that Kenji Tomiki declares, in his book, JUDO AND AIKIDO, that "aikido has a few thousand techniques" (a heavy stretch of imagination) and that, after the death of Sokaku Takeda, "Moritaka Ueshiba" was the successor in the art (Tokimune Sensei would be amazed...)

And about the three uchideshi cited by me, yes, they did live with Ueshiba Morihei Okina.

And, by the way, everybody that has searched for historical facts, has been thrashed before. When Stanley Pranin stated that Aikido came mainly from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, he was lambasted by many shihan, on the grounds that he was telling a lie. Today, it's an accepted fact. Oh, well...

Best regards and always a good keiko




Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Chris - before you ask please take the post in context. The original question was "who was exclusively trained by Ueshiba M." and this was answered. There is a very strict definition of what uchideshi is and of course a less strict definition. Strictly speaking both Saito and Tamura do not fit the definition but I don't think anybody is going to argue that both these men came as close to that strict definition as you are going to get.

I would love to hear what Tamura has to say on the matter but don't ask him as if we are denying his relationship to the founder but rather how the relationships changed pre and post WWII.

I have been told the last deshi of Ueshiba M. was Kobayashi H. and that was definately after the war. In the strictest of senses he was also not uchideshi in that the name also implies a live in relationship. Did any of the three deshi mentioned by Ubaldo actually live with the founder?

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 08-17-2002, 02:15 AM   #9
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Re: Re: Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Quote:
Christophe Perez (ChrisDuSCAMB) wrote:
Kami,

I am very surprised when you say that Saito sensei was not an UCHIDESHI of O'Sensei....
Is it false ?
KAMI : This statement was done by PETER GOLDSBURY, of the IAF and confirmed by Stanley Pranin, of Aikido Journal (himself a devoted student of Saito Sensei). "False" is a heavy term that gives the impression we're attacking Saito Sensei. It was never our intention, as we've clearly stated before.

Quote:
Christophe Perez (ChrisDuSCAMB) wrote:
I have the luck to see and discuss often with Tamura sensei. The next time, I can speak with him, I will ask him if he was an UCHIDESHI of O'sensei or of the Akikai....
KAMI : It's impossible to be an uchideshi of an association. You're always linked to a person. Tamura Sensei was a deshi of some Aikikai teachers, never an "uchideshi". As Peter R.has stated you must be very clear when talking with Tamura Sensei, since japanese are known to be very evasive in their answers. Perhaps you'll have a better answer if you ask him, as Peter has also stated, what was the difference between the Pre-War and the Post War "uchideshi"...If you do not ask something clearly, you won't get a clear answer...

Quote:
Christophe Perez (ChrisDuSCAMB) wrote:
When he will answer to me, I will give you it.
Bye
Chris
KAMI : Please, Do!

Last edited by Kami : 08-17-2002 at 02:17 AM.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 08-17-2002, 08:16 PM   #10
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Re: Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Quote:
Ubaldo Alcantara (Kami) wrote:
Kenji Tomiki declares, in his book, JUDO AND AIKIDO, that "aikido has a few thousand techniques" (a heavy stretch of imagination) and that, after the death of Sokaku Takeda, "Moritaka Ueshiba" was the successor in the art (Tokimune Sensei would be amazed...)
Depends on how you count. That large number didn't come from Tomiki (I think both Ueshiba M. and both Takeda's have been quoted as using a very high number) and interestingly Tomiki is famous for condencing the techniques into a core of less than two dozen. He has also been quoted as saying Ueshiba M. had only one technique (this said while holding up a hand in tegatana). Often what is said, depends on the point being raised. Variation=Techniques

One must also remember (and this speaks to the chagrin of Chris) that a student often repeats what a master tells him without question. In fact to question too much is a sign of disrespect. What also comes into the equation is how complex an explanation do you want to give the student if any, and what you yourself believe.

It is pretty clear that Ueshiba M. saw himself as the successor to Takeda and I have heard that his abrupt departure from Hokaido had much to do with his realization that he would not be. Remember Takeda didn't have a school per se so what Ueshiba M. could have meant is that he was successor to the art. Again what did Ueshiba M. believe and why should Tomiki doubt what his master told him. By the by several students of Takeda S. claim to have the true understanding of the art as opposed to those "other" students. Just like you hear with ex-students (near and far) of Ueshiba M.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-18-2002, 03:21 AM   #11
Kami
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Cool Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Depends on how you count. That large number didn't come from Tomiki (I think both Ueshiba M. and both Takeda's have been quoted as using a very high number) and interestingly Tomiki is famous for condencing the techniques into a core of less than two dozen. He has also been quoted as saying Ueshiba M. had only one technique (this said while holding up a hand in tegatana). Often what is said, depends on the point being raised. Variation=Techniques
KAMI : Hi, Chris!
I believe we're talking, more or less, the same things. You are right, of course, in stating that Ueshiba and Takeda Sensei also stressed some amazingly high numbers for Aiki techniques. As I said, it's a common trait of japanese people. And yes, it has been said that those people weren't talking about techniques but about variation. Even so, we must agree that it's an amazing number...

Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
One must also remember (and this speaks to the chagrin of Chris) that a student often repeats what a master tells him without question. In fact to question too much is a sign of disrespect. What also comes into the equation is how complex an explanation do you want to give the student if any, and what you yourself believe.
KAMI : Indeed. That's why I like those Forum. Here we can discuss things which, otherwise, we would be unable to talk about, due to japanese restraint.

Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
It is pretty clear that Ueshiba M. saw himself as the successor to Takeda and I have heard that his abrupt departure from Hokaido had much to do with his realization that he would not be. Remember Takeda didn't have a school per se so what Ueshiba M. could have meant is that he was successor to the art. Again what did Ueshiba M. believe and why should Tomiki doubt what his master told him. By the by several students of Takeda S. claim to have the true understanding of the art as opposed to those "other" students. Just like you hear with ex-students (near and far) of Ueshiba M.
KAMI : I agree. That's exactly what I think. Of course, Tomiki would repeat what he heard from his Sensei. And that's quite correct from his point of view.
Best regards

Last edited by Kami : 08-18-2002 at 03:24 AM.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 08-18-2002, 06:49 PM   #12
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Re: Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

Quote:
Ubaldo Alcantara (Kami) wrote:
Indeed. That's why I like those Forum. Here we can discuss things which, otherwise, we would be unable to talk about, due to japanese restraint.
Actually if I remember correctly I first got into the electronic forums for exactly that reason. Low level kyu grade scum can not ask the pointed questions in the dojo.

Slowly as I learned more in the dojo or during beer waza I was able to sort out the wheat from the chaf (in both places). I consider myself very lucky that there is very very little of the latter at the dojo but the forums do provide a wider perspective.

They were and still are a great service for my budo education.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-22-2002, 03:36 PM   #13
Milan
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Uchi-deshi

Hello every1!

About uchi-deshi in general and Morihiro Saito particularly: You have to understand the kanji, be4 you can get the meaning. The term »uchi-deshi« consits of 2 kanji:

»Deshi« could be translated as apprentice.

»Uchi« means house.

This is somewhat confusing, because the opposite is »soto-deshi«, which means outside-apprentice - wheras »uchi-deshi« means not inside-apprentice, but refers to some1 who lives with his master in the same house.

It is ther4 true to say, that there were no post-war uchi-deshi of O-Sensei <b>in Tokyo,</b> because the founder lived <b>in Iwama</b> since 1942.

However Morihiro Saito lived together with his master from 1946 until the founders death in Iwama in O-Sensei's house. They trained together, they worked together in the fields, they lived together. Morihiro Saito cared 4 O-Sensei when he was old, as well as Saito's wife Sata nursed the founders wife Hatsu. They were one family. It is ther4 imho ridiculous to deny, that Saito Soke was the most intimate uchi-deshi of O-Sensei, living 26 years with him, far longer than any1 else.

Ciao,

<a href="http://www.allkhatraz.com">Milan</a>
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Old 08-22-2002, 03:46 PM   #14
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"Uchi" in the case of "uchideshi" does mean "inside" and is not the character for "house." Also, "deshi" consists of two characters, not just one.

See: http://www.aikiweb.com/language/misc_k.html

Also, I don't know how often the term "soto deshi" is used in Japan. Talking to Imaizumi sensei earlier this summer, he referred to himself as "kayoi deshi" ("commuting apprentice")...

-- Jun

Last edited by akiy : 08-22-2002 at 03:49 PM.

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Old 08-22-2002, 04:12 PM   #15
Milan
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Hi Jun,

I've looked to the page you linked and I see what you mean. But the Japanese I spoke with told me very clearly, that »uchi-deshi« is written with the house, not with the inside kanji. Since I am a gaijin, I leave further discussion to the Japanese.

And, btw, in my post above is a typo: Saito Soke lived »only« 23 years with O-Sensei.

Ciao,

Milan
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Old 08-22-2002, 04:27 PM   #16
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Does it make any difference that I'm Japanese, too?

Doing a quick search with the kanji for "inside apprentice" on www.google.co.jp returns probably hundreds of links with that phrase (including this one which talks about an account of a Japanese university student's experience as an "uchi deshi" at Iwama). Searching for "house apprentice" returns about 40 links, most of which have "house" and "apprentice" on different parts of the page (ie not as a compound). There are some instances where "house apprentice" is being used but, outside of one or two cases, it's being used in the context of being a deshi to a family (with "uchi" in that case being read like "ka" (as in aikidoka) like "Yamadaka deshi").

Is it common to call Saito sensei "Soke" over in Europe? I've heard Shioda sensei being referred to such, but I can't say I've ever heard Saito sensei being called that.

-- Jun

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Old 08-22-2002, 04:33 PM   #17
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Quick amendment to my previous post here. The "house" character when used in conjunction with a formal name would probably be pronounced "ke" and not "ka." The term "kerai" ("house retainer") comes to mind...

-- Jun

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Old 08-22-2002, 05:18 PM   #18
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Cool Re: Uchi-deshi

Quote:
Milan Milosevic (Milan) wrote:
Hello every1!

It is ther4 imho ridiculous to deny, that Saito Soke was the most intimate uchi-deshi of O-Sensei, living 26 years with him, far longer than any1 else.

Ciao,

<a href="http://www.allkhatraz.com">Milan</a>
KAMI : We never did say that Saito Sensei had not a very intimate relationship with O-Sensei. We've asked two persons who lived for a long time in Japan; speak fluent japanese; and had contact with the most important Shihan of the Aikikai. These were their answers :

"STANLEY PRANIN : Saito Sensei was already employed by Japan Railways when he began his aikido training. He worked on a 24 hour on, 24 hour off shift most of his career. He was never an uchideshi at all. However, he was given a piece of property on Ueshiba land to build his home by O-Sensei so that Saito Sensei and his wife could serve the Ueshibas. I don't know what you would call such a relationship but it was probably much more intimate than an uchideshi relationship and it lasted for some 20 years

and

P.GOLDSBURY : I have always understood that Saito Sensei first met O Sensei in

1946, when he was already an employee of Japan's railways. As a switcher in

a large freight marshalling yard, his job schedule was 24-hours on duty;

24-hours off-duty and in his off-duty periods he trained with the Founder.

He was never an uchi-deshi."

As you see, the quality of those teachers were never in question, even if, by all means, they were never uchideshi. That, let me stress again, represents no demerit upon Saito Sensei, Tamura Sensei or anybody else.

Respectfully
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Old 08-25-2002, 01:45 AM   #19
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(Uchi) Deshi?

Interesting...

Here is a story that was related to me by Seiseki Abe Sensei. This story was also related directly to Stanly Pranin (I beleive) when he interviewed Abe Sensei back in 1981. Here it is as it appeared, then in Aiki-News, and how it appears now on the Aikido Journal site. I transcribed it for the site, and present only a small snippit here as it applies to this thread.


Quote:
Stanly Praning asks
We have heard that you lived together with Ueshiba Sensei for a time. Do you have any stories about that period for us?

Mornings. They came so early… First, he did misogi (purification) with water, then prayers before the indoor Shinto shrine, followed by the Chinkon and other rites. Together, all of these occupied a little more than an hour, and was a daily part of the morning routine. For that reason, our sleep time was limited to about three hours. In the summer, Sensei rose at the first, feint light of dawn, sometime around 4:00 AM. That meant that I had to get up around thirty minutes before that, perform misogi, put on my keiko-gi (training uniform) and sit in seiza to wait in case there was anything that Sensei might request. In the winter time, since the sun comes up somewhat later, I could get about five hours of sleep.

Then, at night, Sensei went to bed rather early. After Sensei got into bed, I often had to read certain books to him. At times, he even had me reading popular storybooks and magazines. As I read along, coming to a sword fight scene, Sensei would spring up from the covers and dramatize the action saying, "Now, that technique works like this…" So it was that the hours after retiring, were Sensei's time for relaxation and pleasure. While he was up during the day, it was all difficult passages from Kojiki or kotodama lectures, you see. No matter what I would ask him, he would give me an answer right away. It is certainly true that he had a deep understanding of the Kojiki.
O-Sensei lived at Abe Sensei's home for 10 days of each month for the last 17 years or so of his life. Now usually we understand Uchi-Deshi to mean that the student lives with the teacher. As you can see, sometimes the teacher lives with the student. This (shugyo) is actually a more traditional part of dedicating yourself to your master - albeit not for the average student of today. I also beleive that O-Sensei had a "similar" relationship with Takeda Sokaku at certain points throughout his studies with that great master.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 08-25-2002, 03:43 AM   #20
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Unhappy Re: (Uchi) Deshi?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens (Misogi-no-Gyo) wrote:
Interesting...Here is a story that was related to me by Seiseki Abe Sensei.

"O-Sensei lived at Abe Sensei's home for 10 days of each month for the last 17 years or so of his life. Now usually we understand Uchi-Deshi to mean that the student lives with the teacher. As you can see, sometimes the teacher lives with the student. I also beleive that O-Sensei had a "similar" relationship with Takeda Sokaku at certain points throughout his studies with that great master.
KAMI : We must stress, again and again, that you may not be an uchideshi but have a long and very intimate relationship with a teacher. It does not mean also that you are, in any way, an inferior deshi to that Master.

An Uchideshi means someone who lives with a teacher, in his house or dojo. I never heard it was the same as the teacher living (for a short time, in both Seiseki Abe Sensei and Sokaku Takeda Sensei) in the house of a deshi. When someone, like Abe Sensei, lives for some days each month with the master, he is generally called KAYOI DESHI, not Uchideshi.

Best regards and always a good keiko

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 08-25-2002, 03:45 AM   #21
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In addition to my last post, it seems that you are or were a student of Seiseki Abe Sensei.

Besides the great respect I have for him, I have the honor of possessing a calligraphy of Abe Sensei with the ancient Kanji for MUSUBI. It is displayed, in a special place, in my house.

Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 08-26-2002, 01:02 PM   #22
Milan
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Uchi-deshi

I checked 4 the writing of uchi-deshi and I found it only with the »inside« kanji: so Jun, your observations are right. I remember it different from my time in Iwama (maybe I understood it wrong), but anyway, here is how we understand the meaning there: An uchi-deshi is some1, who lives in the dojo area with his sensei and is there4 available 4 his master 24 hours a day. The opposite is a soto-deshi, who lives somewhere else and joins only 4 classes.

Regarding Saito Sensei: Of course he was not available to O-Sensei when he was working 4 Japan Railways, but what was his position when he was not working there? Morihiro Saito called himself uchi-deshi of O-Sensei. If you deny this term, than you are saying to know it better than Saito Sensei himself. Hhmmm. The ultimate answer could only be given by O-Sensei. We cannot ask him anymore, but we can look how he treated Morihiro Saito: This speaks 4 itself, at least 4 me.

About the term Soke: Morihiro Saito was a shihan inside Aikikai and giving as such Aikikai ranks. But he was also founder and head of Iwama-Ryu, giving independent Iwama-Ryu ranks. There4 different titles are used. The most general term is Saito Sensei. If you practice Takemusu Aikido inside Aikikai, you might call him Saito Shihan. Members of Iwama-Ryu call him Soke.

Ciao, Milan
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Old 08-27-2002, 02:29 AM   #23
erikmenzel
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Re: Who really trained with Ueshiba?

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Is there a database/list of names of people who were actually trained by Morihei Ueshiba himself?
Most lists I have seen, including the ones mentioned here in the forum are list of teachers nowerdays considered to be important that trained with O'Sensei. Yet people like Virginia Mayhew, Henry Kono, Alan Ruddock, Ken Cortier or Kiichi Hinee (and many others) are not mentioned.

So much for good and useful lists.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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