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Old 08-14-2002, 06:44 AM   #1
aries admin
Dojo: Aikikai Philippines
Location: Philippines
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 34
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Got tired of seeing " Aikido Work?" Read this pls.

Sometimes it is really frustrating to see some threads doubting the efficiency of Aikido. Maybe there is something wrong with the way they practice or the way they were taught or simply because they have not reached the level of truly understanding the art.

Gozo Shioda an MA practioner himself on his visit to O'Sensei was not convinced of the "fluid motion" of Aikido. O'Sensei sensing this ask Gozo to attack him. Gozo kicked and before he knew it he is way down there.

Well anyway stories like that does not hold much to us now. Both people are dead and this can no longer be confirmed.

Allow me to share a true story.

From one of the Philippine Dailies:

"The robber pulled out a knife and lunged at Parsons. The action star parried the knife, grabbed it and slit the throat of the robber, killing him instantly."

The Actor mentioned traded shots first with the fleeing robbers. When they run our of bullets one of them attacked him with a knife. During a TV interview he said " I USE MY AIKIDO TRAINING TO PARRY AND TOOK THE KNIFE FROM HIM". While demonstrating it in front of the TV Camera, he performed a GOKYO.

For a complete story:
Page 1
http://www.inq7.net/met/2002/jul/19/met_1-1.htm

Page 2
http://www.inq7.net/met/2002/jul/19/met_1-2.htm

Hope this helps those who doubt. BTW some guys may shoot back and say things like he is not a real AIKIDOKA when he killed the robbers. Please don't. This thread is not for that.


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Old 08-14-2002, 07:16 AM   #2
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 543
Canada
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I said it in another post, I'll say it again here. (lol) If Aikido didn't work as a martial art, it wouldn't exist as a martial art. Everyone who says 'it's good to question your art' are certainly correct, but there's a difference between asking why or how Aikido works and asking IF it works. One is constructive; it helps us to explore the different aspects of Aikido under a variety of situations. The other is not - that kind of doubt is a hindrance in training, as it causes one to think "What's the point if it isn't going to work?"

I'm going to be honest; although one of the reasons I started Aikido was the non-competetive aspect, and decided on Shin-shin Toitsu as one of the softest styles, I do believe that the lack of kumite is a major cause of doubt. We westerners like seeing cause-and-effect; we often need it demonstrated graphically that something works, rather than trusting in the knowledge of those that have gone before.

For myself, I look at Aikido with eyes experienced in tactics and fighting arts. My opinion is that aikido, soft as it is, is a highly potent, effective, powerful Martial Art with a strong spiritual foundation. That is, of course, my own opinion. There are others with equal or greater experience than me who won't agree. To those folks, all I can ask is...

What the heck are you taking it for, then?



Respectfully yours,

Dave

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 08-14-2002, 07:32 AM   #3
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
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I would disagree with both the above posts. Firstly, you cannot judge the success of one person in a situation as vindicating the effectiveness of a martial art. I have seen a karate instructor get the crap kicked out of him, but I wouldn't consider karate to be rubbish. Also, 'martial arts' exist for different reasons. 'Aikido' was never used on the battle-field, and tai-chi chuan may have originally been for health reasons (though oddly, it has been used on the battle-field vis. the boxer rebellion). Also coepiera is more of a dance form. Both Ueshiba and Shioda were fantastic martial artists. As has been said elsewhere, it's not the martial art, it's the martial artist. Often really simple things are very effective if you practise them constantly. I do believe that the principles underlying aikido can be effective.(sorry if this sounds pedantic!)

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-14-2002, 07:47 AM   #4
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
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The effectiveness of Aikido is due to your vision of its martial effectiveness.

The choice of pursueing gentler means of applying the martial aspect makes it Aikido.

Nature is a violent place of death, recreation, and recycling. Finding harmony is not the same a making harmony. Neither is the application of Aikido in the real world.
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Old 08-14-2002, 08:07 AM   #5
aries admin
Dojo: Aikikai Philippines
Location: Philippines
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 34
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Ian:

This is my second time to post a true story. The first one was also attacked by a knife. It was one of our sensei.

I must disagree with your reasoing.
Quote:
Firstly, you cannot judge the success of one person in a situation as vindicating the effectiveness of a martial art.I have seen a karate instructor get the crap kicked out of him, but I wouldn't consider karate to be rubbish
If this holds true then we can never be certain about all the other MA. A lot of MA people had been beaten before. For example an Aikidoka killed here by a robber. Shot in the head by a .38 caliber gun. A TKD guy mauled almost to death.Yet I know two TKD guys who were able to defend themselves against their who would be robbers.

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Old 08-14-2002, 08:37 AM   #6
Jason Tonks
Dojo: Bracknell Ellis School of Traditonal Aikido
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 71
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This is a debate that I have discussed with my own Sensei who trained with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei when this master introduced Aikido to Great Britain. The problem is in the way Aikido is taught presently at certain dojos. When my Sensei originally trained in the 1950's Aikido was unknown and yet to be established as a martial art. It had to be seen to be effective. In the Abbe School of Budo (The Hut), in those days they had visits from other great teachers such as Tadashi Abe Sensei who by many accounts was one of the hardest and most spirited of O'Sensei's Uchi Deshi. Tadashi Abe always loved to test his Aikido and would challenge all comers. I'm not suggesting this is the way to go for people. My point is that the whole way of training then was focussed with full "martial intent." If people didn't think it worked they were shown if they wanted to really find out. If you were to wander into a dojo for the first time and see someone running round someones finger and then falling down, then you wouldn't probably be too impressed. This is the sort of thing that is giving Aikido a bad name and a lack of credibility as a martial art.

All the best

Jason T
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Old 08-14-2002, 01:38 PM   #7
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
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Analagy: If I am not attacked I won't need to learn how to fight. But if I learn how to fight, I will surely be attacked.

Aikido works because you are in the right place at the right time, which makes doing a technique easy. Change or adjustment to a situation, is not only good Aikido, but a result of cross training and knowledge from experience.

Get more experience, and you will see the credibility of Aikido.
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Old 08-14-2002, 01:41 PM   #8
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
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Oh. the analagy of learning how to fight?

That goes for breathing, living, learning, and anything else you can think of.

Just because there is a chance of something bad happening, doesn't mean it is because of what you have learned.

What you have learned helps to protect you from the bad things that can happen.

(Just a note to put it into context.)
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Old 08-14-2002, 02:04 PM   #9
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
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quote for the day: "Aikido doesn't work so well if you are shot with a 44 mag in the Back."

Seriously though. A few years ago I was at our dojo in Takoma Park, MD when Saotome Sensei was home from FL. Ivan was informing him of the fact that people knew that no one was at home at night. (his house is attached to the dojo). Crack viles and such had been found on the front porch that was covered with wisteria providing a good hide out.

Saotome nodded his head and in his thick Japanese accent said, "oh, guess I should have brought shotgun with me from FL."

Now I am sure his was half joking, but his message is reflecting the reality and common sense of the situation.

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