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Old 03-20-2014, 05:54 AM   #1
Neal Earhart
 
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Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Is anyone practicing Aikido while on blood thinners (such as Coumadin) for treating blood clots?

If so, what precautions/measures are you taking ?

Thank you !
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:39 AM   #2
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Quote:
Neal Earhart wrote: View Post
Is anyone practicing Aikido while on blood thinners (such as Coumadin) for treating blood clots?

If so, what precautions/measures are you taking ?

Thank you !
I looked up Web MD and saw that Coumadin is a brand name for warfarin. The Web MD page mentioned a few other blood thinning drugs, including Pradaxa, which I have been taking for several years. I have to take other, similar, drugs besides Pradaxa, but have suffered no ill effects in aikido training. My own doctor does not like warfarin because of the possible side effects and the constant monitoring required.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 03-20-2014, 11:20 AM   #3
PeterR
 
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I looked up Web MD and saw that Coumadin is a brand name for warfarin. The Web MD page mentioned a few other blood thinning drugs, including Pradaxa, which I have been taking for several years. I have to take other, similar, drugs besides Pradaxa, but have suffered no ill effects in aikido training. My own doctor does not like warfarin because of the possible side effects and the constant monitoring required.
I have seen some excessive bruising (in one training partner) but that was eventually taken care of by modified dose. It was expected that the dose would eventually be modified so no great surprise.

I guess the take home message is keep your doctor informed.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:51 PM   #4
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I have seen some excessive bruising (in one training partner) but that was eventually taken care of by modified dose. It was expected that the dose would eventually be modified so no great surprise.

I guess the take home message is keep your doctor informed.
Hello Peter,

I hope you are well.

The only problem I was told by my doctor to beware of was excessive bleeding in the case of injury, such as being accidentally hit by a bokken or jo. Luckily, we have two medical doctors and one paramedic who regularly practice.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 03-21-2014, 01:20 PM   #5
sakumeikan
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Quote:
Neal Earhart wrote: View Post
Is anyone practicing Aikido while on blood thinners (such as Coumadin) for treating blood clots?

If so, what precautions/measures are you taking ?

Thank you !
Hi,

I have been taking Warfarin for two years at least.I do not have any issues with this.I do get fed up with the monitoring of the stuff at hospital.Really boring. cheers, joe.
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Old 03-21-2014, 01:28 PM   #6
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi,

I have been taking Warfarin for two years at least.I do not have any issues with this.I do get fed up with the monitoring of the stuff at hospital.Really boring. cheers, joe.
So Joe - without getting into personal stuff - has your dose changed because of the monitoring and did you ever have troubles with a higher dose.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-22-2014, 05:53 PM   #7
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

I had the negative experience of coming up with and/or developing a DVT (Deep Vein Thrombosis) in my lower left leg. Went in, told the doc I had some weird swelling, and he put me on an ultrasound and found out I had a clot pretty well developed in my lower leg, and which was trying to climb all the way up my femoral vein towards my groin. Yikes!

So, I went on an injectable blood thinner for two weeks while I attempted to get the blood level of the Coumadin right, and then stayed on the thinner therapy for 6 months.

While on the therapy, I took no breakfalls with any real impact, stayed away from working out and doing anyting with might result in anything of bleeding no matter how small.

In other words, don't get thrown, even in kata. On the blood thinners, a microscopic tear, puncture, or aneurysm can turn into a very major detrimental event, especially if it starts in your head and doesn't stop to clot. Bad mojo, so try not to chance it.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 03-22-2014, 06:02 PM   #8
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
So Joe - without getting into personal stuff - has your dose changed because of the monitoring and did you ever have troubles with a higher dose.
Hi Peter,
For some reason my dosage fluctuates.I take between 6mg for 6days, 7mg on a Sunday. I also find the hospital adjusts the dosage every now and again.i get checks averaging every the.four weeks,
i hate the tablet , taste horrible.When I first went on warfarin I thought I would suffer hair loss. I dont have thick hair so I did not feel happy about losing the barnet [hair ]I have.Still, I could always ask Steven Seagal for one of his old rugs if push comes to shove.I might cut a dashing figure? As it happens I am on so much medication,statins, kidney pills, I rattle when I move.
Not on V,,,,.A, Tried swallowing a couple tablets a few years ago.Ended up with a stiff neck, Cheers, Joe,
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Old 03-22-2014, 09:04 PM   #9
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Hello Joe,

Good to see that you are well.

I have a good friend here who has arrythmia (which is what I have) and his doctor took him off warfarin and put him on Pradaxa. My friend was sick of the hospital monitoring required. Along with Pradaxa I have to take two other drugs that keep the blood pressure low. I see the doctor once a month for repeat prescriptions and to keep a general check. Very occasionally, the heart beats irregularly and does not stop by itself. When this happens I go to a specialist heart hospital here and undergo strong electric shocks, but this has happened only three times since the arrythmia was diagnosed. this was three or four years ago -- I am not sure which. The last time this happened the doctor discussed some kind of operation with a catheter. I am not sure what this was, but it was not a by-pass or pacemaker.

Last year I went to Holland and took a side trip to Ireland to see John Rogers and take part in his summer school. I left the Pradaxa in Holland and had to see a doctor. The doctor thought that one or two days without it would not have mattered so much, but the pharmacist took a different view. Anyway, no harm was done.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 03-23-2014, 12:28 AM   #10
Janet Rosen
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
. The last time this happened the doctor discussed some kind of operation with a catheter. I am not sure what this was, but it was not a by-pass or pacemaker.

Last year I went to Holland and took a side trip to Ireland to see John Rogers and take part in his summer school. I left the Pradaxa in Holland and had to see a doctor. The doctor thought that one or two days without it would not have mattered so much, but the pharmacist took a different view. Anyway, no harm was done.

Best wishes,
He may have been describing an ablation where they locate where in the heart the stray beat originates and selectively zap that area.

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:24 AM   #11
sakumeikan
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Joe,

Good to see that you are well.

I have a good friend here who has arrythmia (which is what I have) and his doctor took him off warfarin and put him on Pradaxa. My friend was sick of the hospital monitoring required. Along with Pradaxa I have to take two other drugs that keep the blood pressure low. I see the doctor once a month for repeat prescriptions and to keep a general check. Very occasionally, the heart beats irregularly and does not stop by itself. When this happens I go to a specialist heart hospital here and undergo strong electric shocks, but this has happened only three times since the arrythmia was diagnosed. this was three or four years ago -- I am not sure which. The last time this happened the doctor discussed some kind of operation with a catheter. I am not sure what this was, but it was not a by-pass or pacemaker.

Last year I went to Holland and took a side trip to Ireland to see John Rogers and take part in his summer school. I left the Pradaxa in Holland and had to see a doctor. The doctor thought that one or two days without it would not have mattered so much, but the pharmacist took a different view. Anyway, no harm was done.

Best wishes,
Hi Peter,
Nice to hear from you.I am not too sure why the doctor put me on Warfarin,.I think it was a measure precautionary .Anyway I take the little horrors each day.
I am still active but I avoid ukemi. The body is no longer like a Greek god.More like a well rounded tyre with a puncture.
On 24th June my good lady Jenny and I are touring Japan.A 10 day visit.We stay in Tokyo at the Grand Pacific Hotel, Tokyo Bay for three days , then cruise to various place like Nagasaki.
Not too bothered about the aikido stuff, just want to chill out and see the place.We are on a ship called the Diamond Princess.The company which runs the ships is American.Visited Hawaii islands with the same company a few years ago.Really excellent facilities.
Peter, life is short, you have got to try and make the most of limited time left.Good to hear you visited Holland.I have fond memories of my time there.A while since my last visit .How is Mr Rogers?A long time since I last saw him.Hope he is well.
So take care, be good , be careful, all the best, Joe.
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:04 PM   #12
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
I had the negative experience of coming up with and/or developing a DVT (Deep Vein Thrombosis) in my lower left leg. Went in, told the doc I had some weird swelling, and he put me on an ultrasound and found out I had a clot pretty well developed in my lower leg, and which was trying to climb all the way up my femoral vein towards my groin. Yikes!

So, I went on an injectable blood thinner for two weeks while I attempted to get the blood level of the Coumadin right, and then stayed on the thinner therapy for 6 months.

.
I too had this in my left leg. Twice so far. Plus I had it in both lungs the first time around. Found out that "a lot" is an actual medical term. My doctor prohibited me from getting on the mat while on coumodin. Didn't want me to have a stroke or heartache and him getting in trouble. It sucks to stay off the mat but I wouldn't practice while on this medicine.
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Old 03-24-2014, 10:17 PM   #13
tarik
 
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Last year, I was diagnosed with bilateral pulmonary emboli (blood clots in both of my lungs) due to a post surgical infection. I was on injectable blood thinners for 45 days while trying to get Coumadin (warfarin) levels right and all "contact sports" were contraindicated, but I had permission from my doctors to train as long as I monitored any bleeding and bruising and got it checked out.

Once my levels were stable, I was fine with full on training and had no problems. Some of my follow up care doctors and specialists (out of Stanford, that lovely ivory tower) had concerns with my martial arts training and ultimately switched me off of warfarin to a drug they felt was safer (actually old fashioned aspirin now) for my lifestyle.

Basically talk to your doctors and keep them informed and always get multiple opinions. Don't pick an opinion based upon your like or dislike of it, but do understand that some doctors are more and less conservative than others and some aren't even aware of what physical activity looks like. It's good to find a doctor who does understand what you do.

Tarik

Last edited by tarik : 03-24-2014 at 10:22 PM.

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 03-24-2014, 11:31 PM   #14
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

it will take longer to achieve hemostasis of cuts and abrasions while on blood thinners. beware of partners with long fingernails/toenails.
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:55 AM   #15
tarik
 
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

According to my specialist, the point of anti-coagulants for MOST people is to try and get a person's whose blood is more likely to clot (for various different reasons) to behave with a more normal clotting factor.

For example, if your levels warfarin are correct, there isn't much issue with excessive bleeding.

Unfortunately, the danger arises from the fact that we are all different biological machines and processing anti-coagulants differ from person to person and metabolism to metabolism, so keeping the levels correct can be challenging. Too much and you can bleed out internally or externally, too little and you can throw clots and stroke out.

Some of the newer drugs are really great, but also suffer from limitations in counteracting them if a person starts internal bleeding. Warfarin is an old friend in the sense that counteracting it is a vitamin K shot away, if needed, despite it's more rigorous and frequent lab test requirements to verify blood levels.

It's really important to be in close communication with your doctors.

Best of luck.

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:09 AM   #16
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Blood thinners can be used to reduce people from a hypercoagulable state (more likely to clot) to a normal one, but most often they are used in people who have a reason why a normal clot would be a problem such as following vascular surgery, heart valve replacement, etc. In these patients, the therapeutic goal is to make them less likely to clot. The plan is to make them only slightly less likely to clot, but there is a range. There fore the recommendation is to avoid activities that could lead to bruising or bleeding. For example, if you suffered a blow to the head while on blood thinners you would be more likely to bleed into the brain or if you received a cut you would be less likely to stop bleeding. Some blood thinners are less likely to produce an increased risk for bleeding and some are more likely. Monitoring is needed to reassess the clotting ability to determine if there is increased risk of bleeding and if dose adjustments may be needed. Check with your doctor and be frank about the extent of your activities. I find most non martial artists really have very little idea of what we do. My favorite example was after I had my wisdom teeth out and my dentist told me I could return to normal activity the following week. I asked if it was okay to get kicked in the jaw. He said, "No! Of course not! Is that likely to happen?" When I told him it did occur on a relatively regular basis and I just needed to know how long to avoid if for, he recanted and told me not to return to MY normal activities for 6-8 weeks!

Derek Duval
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:33 AM   #17
Janet Rosen
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Quote:
Derek Duval wrote: View Post
Blood thinners can be used to reduce people from a hypercoagulable state (more likely to clot) to a normal one, but most often they are used in people who have a reason why a normal clot would be a problem such as following vascular surgery, heart valve replacement, etc. In these patients, the therapeutic goal is to make them less likely to clot.
Yep. Same drug, different therapeutic goals > different blood level sought and maintained > different risk levels.

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Old 03-27-2014, 04:29 PM   #18
Neal Earhart
 
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Re: Blood Thinners (Coumadin, etc)

Thank you for all the input. I was diagnosed with submissive bilateral pulmonary embolisms and also a clot behind my left knee. I was in the hospital for a few days. The first night, I was on a Heparin drip. They moved to Lovenox injections and oral Coumadin. My doctor has said no contact sports (Aikido) for at least 6 months, in order to let the Coumadin run it's course and also to do the blood testing to determine if I have a predisposition for clotting. Three weeks later, I am still fatigued. I go to the doctor for a comprehensive follow-up at the end of April. I am hoping at that time, I'll be allowed to resume some teaching duties...we'll see.
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