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Old 05-04-2015, 01:41 AM   #1
Asou
 
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Name of the training and the purpose?

I want to know the name of this training method. The one that two people connect their centers via their respective wrists. So imagine two people, connecting their wrist, right and right, left and left (pick one). Then they "equalize" or trying to detect the movement and momentum of their partners via their connected wrist. Sometimes one go down, one go up, one tenkan, then the other follows suit.

What is it's name? And for what purpose is it? And how do we train that properly? What are we supposed to do?

The reason why I ask is that I went to some seminar, and the translator guy was so bad, most of the class got very confused and can only crudely mimic what the shihan was doing.
Let's discuss!
Thank you!
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:45 AM   #2
GMaroda
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Sounds like Wing Chun's Chi Sau. Whether or not you were training it for the same purpose Wing Chun people do, I do not know.
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Old 05-05-2015, 07:59 AM   #3
phitruong
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

connection, unity, sensitivity
connect to your partner center
unity - becomes one with your partner
sensitivity - your partner moves, you move; you move, your partner moves

same as taichi push hand. there are more to it, but that's pretty much the main theme of the exercise.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:15 AM   #4
lbb
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Sounds like a kokyu exercise?
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:41 AM   #5
asiawide
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

You can only mimic as long as your body is not ready to do it. This sounds non-sense but if your body is ready you can just notice it without translation. When you are in stable (doesn't mean you are in hanmi or some kamae) you'll feel what your partner is going to do or where is his weak point for out of balance.

In short, what the shihan showed is not the training method or technique but an indicator of your body status.

ps. There are many posts by Robert John, Mike Sigman and Dan Harden. I think those will help you.
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:54 AM   #6
ramenboy
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Quote:
Greg Maroda wrote: View Post
Sounds like Wing Chun's Chi Sau. Whether or not you were training it for the same purpose Wing Chun people do, I do not know.
i agree with greg. that's the first thing i thought of when i read the original post... wing chun sticky hands practice

practice hard
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Old 05-14-2015, 05:52 PM   #7
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
I want to know the name of this training method. The one that two people connect their centers via their respective wrists. So imagine two people, connecting their wrist, right and right, left and left (pick one). Then they "equalize" or trying to detect the movement and momentum of their partners via their connected wrist. Sometimes one go down, one go up, one tenkan, then the other follows suit.

What is it's name? And for what purpose is it? And how do we train that properly? What are we supposed to do?

The reason why I ask is that I went to some seminar, and the translator guy was so bad, most of the class got very confused and can only crudely mimic what the shihan was doing.
Let's discuss!
Thank you!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4VP0caR1hM Like this a little?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-15-2015, 03:06 AM   #8
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Probably not - that was the tegatana awase that is done in every Shodokan class. You probably remember that from your time at Himeji.

It is primarily a distancing exercise and although speed and direction are changed, there is no tenkan and nobody goes down. You could just as easily drop the hand and still do the exercise.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-15-2015, 11:19 AM   #9
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Probably not - that was the tegatana awase that is done in every Shodokan class. You probably remember that from your time at Himeji.

It is primarily a distancing exercise and although speed and direction are changed, there is no tenkan and nobody goes down. You could just as easily drop the hand and still do the exercise.
I figured it was a little different, but I wondered if the form described resembled it. I've been revisiting my Tomiki Aikido: Randori & Koryu no Kata, by Dr. Lee Ah Loi, and so that was what came to mind. It's been a while now since I got to practice that!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-17-2015, 06:39 PM   #10
Asou
 
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I figured it was a little different, but I wondered if the form described resembled it. I've been revisiting my Tomiki Aikido: Randori & Koryu no Kata, by Dr. Lee Ah Loi, and so that was what came to mind. It's been a while now since I got to practice that!
actually, it looks a lot like that, but not just moving back and forth, add some up and down, and some sudden movement to the right or left.

But, while you're here, Matt, in Yoshinkan, only back and forth movement is allowed? If you want distancing, what is the correct distance? Is it one hand lengths?
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:58 AM   #11
Cliff Judge
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Konstantinus, I cannot help you with the name, but we have been practicing exactly what you describe at my dojo for the last decade. I am not sure whether Saotome Sensei started us doing this or if it was brought in by one of our senior instructors (and yes some of those folks have chinese martial arts experience so it might be borrowed from Wing Chun).

When I am doing this exercise I try to keep my weight from shifting between my feet and I try not to push or resist.
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Old 05-18-2015, 10:12 PM   #12
Asou
 
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Konstantinus, I cannot help you with the name, but we have been practicing exactly what you describe at my dojo for the last decade. I am not sure whether Saotome Sensei started us doing this or if it was brought in by one of our senior instructors (and yes some of those folks have chinese martial arts experience so it might be borrowed from Wing Chun).

When I am doing this exercise I try to keep my weight from shifting between my feet and I try not to push or resist.
are you saying that you're trying to be like a daruma doll?
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Old 05-19-2015, 10:06 AM   #13
Cliff Judge
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
are you saying that you're trying to be like a daruma doll?
I think you've hit upon the perfect answer to both questions.
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Old 05-19-2015, 12:26 PM   #14
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

SERIOUSLY FOLKS??? He is quite obviously talking about the most basic tai-sabaki there is - Tai no Henko. and while I can't endorse what is being demonstrated in this video, it does serve the basic purpose of illustrating what the OP was seeking...
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Old 05-19-2015, 06:06 PM   #15
Asou
 
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think you've hit upon the perfect answer to both questions.
"try to keep my weight from shifting between my feet "

but when uke pushes you with hand or body movement, there should be some weight shift, right? From which, you will immediately try to return the weight to the center of your body again, correct?

if so, everything makes sense, thanks!
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Old 05-20-2015, 10:06 AM   #16
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
"try to keep my weight from shifting between my feet "

but when uke pushes you with hand or body movement, there should be some weight shift, right? From which, you will immediately try to return the weight to the center of your body again, correct?

if so, everything makes sense, thanks!
Ideally, you don't want a weight shift. In that space between shifting and recovering, you are off balance. Ideally, uke should feel like they're pushing on a tree or a large boulder.

Getting to that point takes a while, of course.

Katherine
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Old 05-20-2015, 11:54 AM   #17
Cliff Judge
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

What Katherine said. When someone pushes against you, there are other directions to which you can divert the force than your back leg. This exercise is a good way to get familiar with those other directions and get better at shifting the force around. The better you are at it, the stranger it feels to the pusher.
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Old 05-20-2015, 12:13 PM   #18
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
actually, it looks a lot like that, but not just moving back and forth, add some up and down, and some sudden movement to the right or left.

But, while you're here, Matt, in Yoshinkan, only back and forth movement is allowed? If you want distancing, what is the correct distance? Is it one hand lengths?
Sorry, but I've never experienced Yoshinkan and only studied Shodokan briefly so I couldn't say for sure what is considered to be best.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-20-2015, 02:41 PM   #19
Robert Cowham
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Re: Name of the training and the purpose?

I have a done a similar sort of exercise as taught by Inaba sensei at the Shiseikan, and indeed still do. Variations include one person "punching" towards the face, and the other sensing and deflecting. It can be done with a specific person designated as uke, or in turn, or relatively free style.

Training benefits include: sensitivity, sense of ma-ai/spacing, focus on center/tanden, relaxation of the arms. If you do it for a 5+ minutes a side without changing, you also get a conditioning effect as it is tiring keeping the arms up - this relates to qigong type exercises which are valuable I find.
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