"Uke from hell"

...Am I the "uke from hell" because I have a strong grip and are well centred?

Come train with me - not too far away eh :-)

Rupert Atkinson wrote: Come train with me - not too far away eh :-)

Yes I would love to train with you. I too have trained with Junichi Nishimura at one of my first Aikido Seminars. I shall never forget his words to my training partner who is a Nidan at our club, about 6 foot 3 and built like a thorough breed race horse from his canoe training. " Ow you picked the wrong training partner" said Junichi Sensei laughing at the NIdan as he struggled with my grip while performing tekatana techniques (releases). Junichi Sensei proceeded to show the Nidan and demonstrate to the class how to release yourself from such a strong grip. I was then used as Uke when Junichi Sensei demonstrated and needed a strong Uke. This event happened 3 years ago and I was 6 Kyu standing 5 foot 11 weighing 100KG. Today I am only 3 Kyu weighing in at 95 KG.

Another Nidan at our club complains I give him rope burn and calls me the ":Uke from Hell"

Sadly I inherited "strongest man" at the club, but at my last grading Sensei complimented me for not using any strength or power. Which is what I am focusing on more and more.

In saying that, when I train with any lower kyu grade.I never use such strength. But Shodan and above at least deserve an honest attack...Maybe...

This Labour weekend (2014) our club hosts Bob Nadeau Shihan for a 3 day seminar in Auckland...Come along friend.

Give to each what they deserve and need. Then your question will be answered. If you are going to grip them with strength, be prepared to show them how to get out of it, or use it against you!

Randy Karst wrote: Give to each what they deserve and need. Then your question will be answered. If you are going to grip them with strength, be prepared to show them how to get out of it, or use it against you!

Yes indeed, and because I apply the basic's, I have no problem, but it's not for me to show anybody, as I am only a KYU grade.

But I am learning, just avoid them on the mat, there loss not mine...

Far from it! It sounds like you are a good training partner. Feel free to train with us any time.

Richard Campbell wrote: ...Am I the "uke from hell" because I have a strong grip and are well centred?

Nah, a well-centred uke with a strong grip is the easy kind. If you have a strong and stable centre and you grip hard it gives nage a direct and easy communication with your centre, and enables them to manipulate it - so long as nage knows what they are doing. But being that sort of uke isn't so good for beginners IMO, it can cause them to get discouraged because they haven't got out of the mindset of making the waza work, as opposed to allowing the waza to work.

Mike

Richard Campbell wrote: ...Am I the "uke from hell" because I have a strong grip and are well centred?

that's not a definition of uke from hell. uke from hell is the one that comes in and takes nage balance and proceeds to throw nage. strong grip and centered and not disrupting nage's balance is easy to deal with.

I think the uke from hell is basically the opposite and is not committed to any attack. Like the uke who is supposed to punch you in the face but always stops the punch before it gets to you. If I tell you to punch me in the face then punch me in the face...it's my fault if I don't move my face and get hit.

Brian Gillaspie wrote: I think the uke from hell is basically the opposite and is not committed to any attack.

An uke like that gets slapped in my dojo, you might get away with it for a little while, but eventually if I ask you to attack properly and you pull your attack I will take advantage of your openings. I'm not above a gentle open handed strike to the jawline of someone doing something stupid. Not to cause pain or injury, rather just to let you know you're not doing yourself any favours. I usually only have to make my point once or twice before people get it.

Robin Boyd wrote: Far from it! It sounds like you are a good training partner. Feel free to train with us any time.

Thank you Robin much appreciated

I've had that title and now I am "worse". Not because I have a strong grip (which on it's face, is ridiculous and is a sign of poor Ukeme) and I am "strongly centered". Now I am a "bad" Uke because I influence my Nage to execute the technique correctly by being soft and staying connected with him/her. I have learned through experience that in presenting a strong grip you foolishly give your center to Nage before they have to do anything.

William Hazen

William Hazen wrote: I've had that title and now I am "worse". Not because I have a strong grip (which on it's face, is ridiculous and is a sign of poor Ukeme) and I am "strongly centered". Now I am a "bad" Uke because I influence my Nage to execute the technique correctly by being soft and staying connected with him/her. I have learned through experience that in presenting a strong grip you foolishly give your center to Nage before they have to do anything. William Hazen

Thank goodness I am not alone and take your advice with the kindest of regards, but when performing Tai no henko, nage is frozen to the spot with a hard grip, unless I ease off...and that annoys Dan grades...we won't even talk about morote tori, that's a whole new story. But I do know this Iwama first and second generation students I also train with welcome good strong hard grips.

Richard Campbell wrote: ...Am I the "uke from hell" because I have a strong grip and are well centred?

Others have said - I'll reinforce - no, not uke from hell. Good to train with someone who's "there"…

Richard Campbell wrote: Thank goodness I am not alone and take your advice with the kindest of regards, but when performing Tai no henko, nage is frozen to the spot with a hard grip, unless I ease off...and that annoys Dan grades...we won't even talk about morote tori, that's a whole new story. But I do know this Iwama first and second generation students I also train with welcome good strong hard grips.

With all due respect your ego is in the wrong place.

Since I've only studied for 25 years (with many more years in other Martial disciplines) I have found that those who think good Ukemi is personified by a good hard grip do not really understand the purpose of the grip, since there is no grabbing in Aikido with the exception of training and helping nage with the technique. But then again if you don't mind getting hit (Atemi) grab away.

Back in the day when I acted like you I found myself gasping for air on the mat one day when a Senior Yudansha kindly reminded be the purpose of grabbing in practice with a quick lighting tap to the solar plexus.

Now when you learn to have "sticky hands" and exhibit power while remaining completely relaxed, and soft...then we will have something to talk about.

Have fun.

William Hazen

William Hazen wrote: With all due respect your ego is in the wrong place.

No offense but I leave my ego at the Dojo door and have studied martial arts 30 plus years...

William Hazen wrote: (1) ... a Senior Yudansha kindly reminded me the purpose of grabbing in practice with a quick lighting tap to the solar plexus. (2) Now when you learn to have "sticky hands" and exhibit power while remaining completely relaxed, and soft...then we will have something to talk about. William Hazen

Many people think (1) to be the way to go when you can't move but (2) is what we should be aiming for. If you think (1) you will never have the idea to aim for (2).

Richard Campbell wrote: No offense but I leave my ego at the Dojo door and have studied martial arts 30 plus years...

I did not mean any offense either. I started in 1967 at the age of 7. Good Luck.

William Hazen

Rupert Atkinson wrote: Many people think (1) to be the way to go when you can't move but (2) is what we should be aiming for. If you think (1) you will never have the idea to aim for (2).

Good Point Rupert and I totally agree.

William Hazen

Uke from hell -- or nage from hell -- is one who is more interested in playing games to show up their partner than in participating in training.

What Mary said. Pretty much anyone can lock down and prevent a technique from happening as demonstrated, because they know what's going to happen. Nage either has to hit them (easiest), or do something else (might annoy Sensei). Or out-base uke and force their way through the technique, which means bruised wrists: just... annoying.

Mary said it.

However, it is obvious when your strong grip should take it easy, as the situation demands.

In my opinion, you absolutely NEED a strong grip to do it right, and there are various roads to that. I know for a fact there are a lot of Aikidoka in the world who do not agree, fine.

What Mary said, too. Very to-the-heart-of-the-matter.

So what is it that makes a good uke? I have, and still do, find this question to be a big fat riddle. I've had a recent break from aikido, and this was partly due to the uke-nage training model, which I find can be very frustrating.

So... 3 suggestions for good uke-ness:

Uke allowing nage to request variations in attack strength/intensity (but not integrity). It's boring not being able to do anything, and boring practices end up becoming no practices. Sometimes, as nage, I want to test myself against a strong grip, and sometimes I want to work on something other than the beginning of a technique. If I'm failing to manage to get things moving even 1 time in 10, then maybe uke needs to cut me some slack so that we can both do some aikido.

Uke seeking to make a connection and then seeking to follow it *whilst keeping him/herself safe* (Very important - I once knew an uke so bad that I nicknamed him [to myself] ‘Atemi ___'. Not because he used atemi, but because he taught me so much about when in aikido you have opportunity to strike. The waza just don't work correctly if uke's being a numpty.) Personally, I have often been guilty of not sufficiently connecting and trying control nage's centre, thereby making it more difficult for nage to practice (perhaps the opposite of an overly strong grip).

Uke - knowing that we all ‘dig in' sometimes, often without realising it - being OK with nage changing the waza as he/she sees fit. Egos again, I suppose.

Jon

Brian Gillaspie wrote: I think the uke from hell is basically the opposite and is not committed to any attack. Like the uke who is supposed to punch you in the face but always stops the punch before it gets to you. If I tell you to punch me in the face then punch me in the face...it's my fault if I don't move my face and get hit.

Agreed, uncommitted attacks are not attacks, they are a defense to having to accept the "badness" of being the attacker in class, which means the "Ouchie," or "Whomp," or whatever the appropriate sound effect which happens when the technique is delivered happens to be. Also agree with Phy Truong that the person who takes things up a notch when that's not the lesson can be a real pain. Beginner trying to figure out where to move, and the other guy makes them pay with pain for every incorrect movement. Not good. Those folks need to train with someone like themselves, and they can go off and fight MMA or whatever.