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Old 01-17-2014, 11:12 PM   #26
Chris Li
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Did they throw down publicly, or within a dojo or some sort of sanctioned event? Did they break the laws of their place and time? Should they have participated in such thing? Has society changed a lot over the last several decades?
I've heard of both of the first, and of course yes to the second, I'd imagine. Should they have is another discussion, but it's kind of hypocritical chastising people for doing the same things that your teachers were famous for doing, don't you think?

Plenty of folks today still roll around and try each other out - just look at MMA.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-18-2014, 12:49 PM   #27
john2054
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

I went swimming today with my family. Benefits of the pool = no idiots calling me out.

Negatives: no-one there to teach me the names of moves.

12 lengths=i'm tired now.

I don't mind doing martial arts, i quite like it actually. i just don't relish the moments when i am taken aside by a senior and given a bollocking. Like i said already, I don't think i deserve that.

OKAY?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Old 01-18-2014, 01:37 PM   #28
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with two people rolling around and trying it out by mutual consent. From the lineage on the website of the dojo in question I know for a fact that their instructor Shigeho Tanaka did just that. So did Morihei Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda, and just about everybody from that generation. What exactly is the problem?

Best,

Chris
I think his teacher has probably made the correct decision, at least based on my impression from these posts. One, I think that the desire to "fight" runs counter to what the Founder intended for the art. While O-Sensei clearly wanted his students to be competent martial artists, he chewed them out at length when they went out and got in fights just to test drive their skills. He said such contests destroyed the "spirit of Aikido".

Two, if you wish to test out your skills, you do so with someone with whom you are friends who does another style and you can mutually play. If you turn something into a real contest, someone is going to get hurt. Setting up a contest with someone when it is about who is going to win requires a different attitude. Winning without hurting the other person requires either a very high degree of skill, one that you don't have in the early Dan ranks, or incompetence on the part of the opponent. If the opponent in question really has some skills in MMA etc, prevailing will almost certainly require creating some level of dysfunction. It is incorrect to assume things work in a true fight the way they do in the dojo. This is why we have uke and nage and we train using a free flowing kata system. Uke is taught to let go and take his ukemi when things are untenable. In a fight, the opponent is going to hang in there until he / she is unable to contend i.e. unconscious, injured, or dead. No one goes into a fight or contest thinking he's "uke".

I would guess that the teacher in question is trying to deliver a message about attitude more than anything else and I also think that message isn't getting through.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-18-2014, 02:18 PM   #29
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with two people rolling around and trying it out by mutual consent. From the lineage on the website of the dojo in question I know for a fact that their instructor Shigeho Tanaka did just that. So did Morihei Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda, and just about everybody from that generation. What exactly is the problem?

Best,

Chris
They could find they lack real usable skills... that is the problem.

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Old 01-18-2014, 02:23 PM   #30
Chris Li
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I think his teacher has probably made the correct decision, at least based on my impression from these posts. One, I think that the desire to "fight" runs counter to what the Founder intended for the art. While O-Sensei clearly wanted his students to be competent martial artists, he chewed them out at length when they went out and got in fights just to test drive their skills. He said such contests destroyed the "spirit of Aikido".

Two, if you wish to test out your skills, you do so with someone with whom you are friends who does another style and you can mutually play. If you turn something into a real contest, someone is going to get hurt. Setting up a contest with someone when it is about who is going to win requires a different attitude. Winning without hurting the other person requires either a very high degree of skill, one that you don't have in the early Dan ranks, or incompetence on the part of the opponent. If the opponent in question really has some skills in MMA etc, prevailing will almost certainly require creating some level of dysfunction. It is incorrect to assume things work in a true fight the way they do in the dojo. This is why we have uke and nage and we train using a free flowing kata system. Uke is taught to let go and take his ukemi when things are untenable. In a fight, the opponent is going to hang in there until he / she is unable to contend i.e. unconscious, injured, or dead. No one goes into a fight or contest thinking he's "uke".

I would guess that the teacher in question is trying to deliver a message about attitude more than anything else and I also think that message isn't getting through.
There was also an ura to the public face of those scoldings, as there often is in Japan, and I note that he never banned anybody because of those incidents (some people were actually praised - in private).

Also, I can think of a number of cases where this kind of thing went on with his tacit approval - or at least, his silence, as long as it wasn't made into a public matter.

As it often goes in Japan - the speech doesn't always follow the behavior. I think it's a mistake to listen to a statement made in a Japanese cultural context and expect that western cultural behavior will follow.

When Ueshiba sent folks out to take challenges I'm pretty sure that he didn't expect folks to "play".

OTOH, the OP (although he used the word "fight") seems to be pretty much talking about just that - a mutually agreed upon contest, playing.

I could see the instructors advising against it (I would), but I wouldn't do any more unless there are issues that we haven't seen here.

As to making the name of the dojo public - well, that's the way it goes, you can't tell people in a publicly run class not to say that they attend that class. If he were publicly claiming to represent the dojo in some way I might see the problem, but as far as I can see that hasn't happened.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-18-2014, 06:08 PM   #31
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

To me, the issue is not what the OP does, it is that he is representing his dojo. The minute he publicly mentioned his dojo, he started representing them. Firstly, I'm pretty sure the dojo doesn't want to be represented by those who go around getting into fights, but more importantly, if the dojo were to be represented in a fight, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't pick a rank beginner to do it. The OP needs to realise that 6 months is not a long time to train and that a "yellow belt" (what is that, anyway, 5th kyu?) does not imply any sort of ability. What would happen if you lost the 'fight'? I imagine that would not make your dojo look good. When Ueshiba gave 'tacit approval' to his students doing this sort of thing, I'm pretty sure those students had a reasonable amount of ability beforehand and that he was pretty sure they would represent themselves (and him) fairly well. The OP implied earlier that he thought he would win because aikido was "better" than krav maga etc. That is another mistake. I'm sure everyone on this forum, including myself, have a great appreciation for aikido, but when it comes to a fight, the amount and intensity of the training, combined with the innate physical ability of the person has much more impact on the outcome of a fight than what martial art they practice. So, this girl had the temerity to think she is a better martial artist than you? So what? I think I'm a better martial artist than you. I think everyone who has replied to this thread so far is a better martial artist than you. But, I'm not even close to the best at my dojo, so I'm not going to represent them in a fight with you. If you want to prove that you're better, come to the dojo and you can have it out with whomever sensei picks (probably himself, but if you look like enough fun, you might get a few other volunteers). If you want to prove that you are better than someone who practices krav maga, go to her dojo, see her training, and if you are not convinced, challenge her sensei (without mentioning where you train). If you want to prove that the aikido that you practice is better, get someone with experience and ability to prove it. That is not you.

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post

I don't mind doing martial arts, i quite like it actually. i just don't relish the moments when i am taken aside by a senior and given a bollocking. Like i said already, I don't think i deserve that.

OKAY?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
No. It's not okay, and yes you do deserve it.
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Old 01-18-2014, 09:04 PM   #32
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
OTOH, the OP (although he used the word "fight") seems to be pretty much talking about just that - a mutually agreed upon contest, playing.
Not just "fight," but "street fight." It was a poor choice in words, even though he may have only meant it to be a friendly bit of sparring (he did say as much and did describe wanting to make sure no one comes to any real harm), but I can see a school being a bit nervous about having their name associated with it. In litigious America, I'd certainly be nervous about the potential hassles.
I have no problem with people testing each other under most circumstances, but this didn't sit well with me as I was reading it either...it's hard for me to shake certain connotations related to a "street fight" brought about from someone talking @#$%.
Whatever the case, I hope the OP bears it in mind as one more lesson offered by his teachers to add to the list of things to consider and is able to keep training in the way he enjoys.

As relates to the laws in some places, I bring you Phoenix Jones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teBnJYO0SSY

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-18-2014 at 09:09 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-18-2014, 09:31 PM   #33
Chris Li
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Not just "fight," but "street fight." It was a poor choice in words, even though he may have only meant it to be a friendly bit of sparring (he did say as much and did describe wanting to make sure no one comes to any real harm), but I can see a school being a bit nervous about having their name associated with it. In litigious America, I'd certainly be nervous about the potential hassles.
I have no problem with people testing each other under most circumstances, but this didn't sit well with me as I was reading it either...it's hard for me to shake certain connotations related to a "street fight" brought about from someone talking @#$%.
Whatever the case, I hope the OP bears it in mind as one more lesson offered by his teachers to add to the list of things to consider and is able to keep training in the way he enjoys.

As relates to the laws in some places, I bring you Phoenix Jones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teBnJYO0SSY
Well, I think that the way it was presented was ill-advised, but I don't think that the fact of a match is anything to get that excited about (and that seems to have been a major sticking point for most folks). I didn't think that he presented himself in any was as a representative of any particular school, except to say that he tooks some classes there. At most a discussion about appearances and discretion - I certainly wouldn't ban anybody for what is currently under discussion.

When a Karate guy talked smack to Gozo Shioda he took him on, damaged him - and then got promoted to 9th dan by Morihei Ueshiba ten years later. He was also one of the teachers of Shigeho Tanaka - who was the teacher of the folks at the dojo in question.

Morihiro Saito used to go into town and rumble with the Yakuza, then spend the rest of the night drinking - Saito always said the Morihei Ueshiba knew full well what was going on.

These things happen.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-18-2014, 10:06 PM   #34
Brian Gillaspie
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

I understand why an instructor would not want his student challenging people. It's his school so he gets to make the call. It would be interesting to hear the instructor's side of the story. If this is the only thing the op has done to upset the instructor after a few months training I'm surprised he would be immediately banned from the dojo.

I just have a feeling we are not getting the whole story.
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Old 01-19-2014, 02:47 AM   #35
Chris Li
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Brian Gillaspie wrote: View Post
I understand why an instructor would not want his student challenging people. It's his school so he gets to make the call. It would be interesting to hear the instructor's side of the story. If this is the only thing the op has done to upset the instructor after a few months training I'm surprised he would be immediately banned from the dojo.

I just have a feeling we are not getting the whole story.
One rarely does.

Of course, people don't want their students to go out and challenge people, but since most of them did it themselves it seems hypocritical to get too excited about it.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-19-2014, 07:24 AM   #36
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
I went swimming today with my family. Benefits of the pool = no idiots calling me out.

Negatives: no-one there to teach me the names of moves.

12 lengths=i'm tired now.

I don't mind doing martial arts, i quite like it actually. i just don't relish the moments when i am taken aside by a senior and given a bollocking. Like i said already, I don't think i deserve that.

OKAY?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
She went from a "bird on the net" to an "idiot". I hope you get to keep training so you can see that what other people do, say, think or wear has nothing to do with your response. You are responsible for that.

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Old 01-19-2014, 09:23 AM   #37
john2054
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

OK im on the verge of being banned for good. i dont know whats happening at the moment. sometimes in moments of rage i say things i later come to regret. and one of the advantages of not being in hospital is that these actions dont have immediate direct consequences. fair play if i had been in a fight and hit someone, then i could be charged with assault. but as it happens i only suggested fighting. make of that what you will. now im in a great pile of sú$%. So what. I can move cities, change my facial expression and join another dojo. Is that really such a big deal?

PS when i said no idiots calling me out i was referring to on the net. Not 'her'!

Last edited by john2054 : 01-19-2014 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 01-19-2014, 10:02 AM   #38
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
OK im on the verge of being banned for good. i dont know whats happening at the moment. sometimes in moments of rage i say things i later come to regret. and one of the advantages of not being in hospital is that these actions dont have immediate direct consequences. fair play if i had been in a fight and hit someone, then i could be charged with assault. but as it happens i only suggested fighting. make of that what you will. now im in a great pile of sú$%. So what. I can move cities, change my facial expression and join another dojo. Is that really such a big deal?

PS when i said no idiots calling me out i was referring to on the net. Not 'her'!
You started a thread about it. Did you forget that?

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Old 01-19-2014, 11:25 AM   #39
Campbell
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

This post isn't going to help you. To be completely honest you might be better off asking an admin to delete it because nothing good is going to come from it.

In the future you might want to try and be less confrontational. And honestly you're probably going to continue to have the same issues no matter where you go if you don't relax a bit.

That said, I wish the best for you.
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Old 01-19-2014, 11:49 AM   #40
Michael Douglas
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
... So what. I can move cities, change my facial expression and join another dojo. Is that really such a big deal?
You know ... there's no need to disguise yourself,
many Aikido schools don't talk to each other much, especially across factions.
You say you've only been temp-banned from your current dojo,
if you really really feel the need to immediately continue Aikido just join somewhere else ...

On a side-note, can I have this word please? ;
Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
... whereas i consider mma and krav-ma as to being subferior to aiki training, and hence i thought i had a chance..
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Old 01-19-2014, 11:52 AM   #41
PeterR
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Let's call it what it is.

I'll bet good money that the real problem is disruptive behavior within the dojo not one particular incident.

and for the same reason I doubt very much that the teacher in question actually issued a blanket ban on Aikido.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-19-2014, 12:18 PM   #42
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
...sometimes in moments of rage i say things i later come to regret.
John, therein lies one potentially important avenue to work on. Having known people who had a hard time expressing their anger in a way that others could handle, I know it can be frustrating to deal with the responses. It can quickly spiral out of control.
From what I've been taught about Aikido, one view is that it is ultimately about self-correction. As a general principle, you start by working on yourself, then progress out from there. I think the founder said something to the effect of, "first work on yourself, then your household, then your country, etc." Again, it's just a general principle, but the idea is that whatever our personal situation is, it will affect everything around it and that by working on that starting point, our situations can gradually get better. The martial art aspect is there to serve as a catalyst for building yourself into as capable an individual as possible. It's certainly a central role, don't get me wrong, but if you think your actions are shaping things in a way that don't fit your goals, that's the first place to start your training...at least, for whatever it's worth, that's how I tend to think of things.
Good luck and good training!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-19-2014, 12:25 PM   #43
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, I think that the way it was presented was ill-advised, but I don't think that the fact of a match is anything to get that excited about (and that seems to have been a major sticking point for most folks).
It's not legal, Chris. As Zonker Harris once said, "It may or may not be wrong, but it sure is against the law."
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Old 01-19-2014, 12:39 PM   #44
Chris Li
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It's not legal, Chris. As Zonker Harris once said, "It may or may not be wrong, but it sure is against the law."
A lot of things aren't legal - if it's outside the dojo it's also outside my scope of responsibility. Also I disagree that what he was talking about was necessarily illegal - the phrasing was unfortunate, but as I understand it what he was talking about was basically a cross-art match by mutual consent - which is certainly legal.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-19-2014, 12:41 PM   #45
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It's not legal, Chris. As Zonker Harris once said, "It may or may not be wrong, but it sure is against the law."
Really?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-19-2014, 12:58 PM   #46
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
A lot of things aren't legal - if it's outside the dojo it's also outside my scope of responsibility. Also I disagree that what he was talking about was necessarily illegal - the phrasing was unfortunate, but as I understand it what he was talking about was basically a cross-art match by mutual consent - which is certainly legal.
I'm not sure that's true. Mutual consent is irrelevant -- you cannot consent to assault in the United States. There is a specific exception for sporting events such as boxing, but I question if it extends to unregulated "hey let's get together and punch each other" behavior. That comes awfully close to "hey let's walk out behind this bar and punch each other", and that's definitely not legal.
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Old 01-19-2014, 05:57 PM   #47
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

I am not sure that I would go along with your line of thinking that in this case MMA and Krav are "inferior" to Aikido? Whilst both may be modern, so is Aikido by comparison, Krav also shares liniage with Aikido in its formation. I am pretty sure I can dial up any you tube video of someone using one martial art to overcome another, - it proves nothing however. The only person you need to compete with is yourself.
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Old 01-19-2014, 06:13 PM   #48
Chris Li
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm not sure that's true. Mutual consent is irrelevant -- you cannot consent to assault in the United States. There is a specific exception for sporting events such as boxing, but I question if it extends to unregulated "hey let's get together and punch each other" behavior. That comes awfully close to "hey let's walk out behind this bar and punch each other", and that's definitely not legal.
Well, people have matches all the time in private venues - MMA schools, for example, and it's certainly legal. Of course, there are tussles that go beyond that, but I think that automatically assuming that it's illegal would be mistaken.

FWIW - this kind of thing goes on all the time, I've seen it, I've even done it, and it's generally harmless. Ueshiba did it, Tohei did it, Shioda did it. Maybe it's not such a horrible offense after all...

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-19-2014, 07:48 PM   #49
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, people have matches all the time in private venues - MMA schools, for example, and it's certainly legal. Of course, there are tussles that go beyond that, but I think that automatically assuming that it's illegal would be mistaken.

FWIW - this kind of thing goes on all the time, I've seen it, I've even done it, and it's generally harmless. Ueshiba did it, Tohei did it, Shioda did it. Maybe it's not such a horrible offense after all...
I'm not going to belabor the point, Chris -- I've made it already. I will simply say in conclusion that I think it's unwise to use movies and historical anecdotes from a different country as a guide to what's prudent to do here and now.
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:58 PM   #50
Chris Li
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm not going to belabor the point, Chris -- I've made it already. I will simply say in conclusion that I think it's unwise to use movies and historical anecdotes from a different country as a guide to what's prudent to do here and now.
I didn't cite any movies, and I never argued about prudency - but legality is a different matter. And some of the examples I used came from right here in the United States.

Best,

Chris

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