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Old 12-12-2013, 08:18 PM   #1
Dave Gallagher
Dojo: Shobukan Dojo, St.Louis
Location: St.Louis
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Belts sticking out

I was watching a few videos and I have noticed that some people like to have their rank belt sticking out of the side of their kakama. I am the only person who thinks this looks silly?

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:44 PM   #2
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
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Re: Belts sticking out

Because hakama themselves totally don't look silly.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:59 PM   #3
Stephen Nichol
Dojo: Aikilife, Canberra
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Re: Belts sticking out

Quote:
Dave Gallagher wrote: View Post
I was watching a few videos and I have noticed that some people like to have their rank belt sticking out of the side of their kakama. I am the only person who thinks this looks silly?
Short answer. No you are not. I too find this not silly but more... pretentious.

But as Hugh said, the whole thing is kind of laughable really. 'Traditional' costumes and all. Why do we not just train in sweat pants and t-shirts?

My co-worker who is a 3rd dan in Karate asked me once about how the senior instructors wanted to buy him a new training uniform with his name and something else embroidered in Japanese on the front left fold at the chest level. He felt it smacked to much of 'wank factor'... and the whole elaborate Japanese embroidery of :stuff: on things got talked about in a similar fashion. I simply pointed out the fact that we play dress up in the first place by wearing Japanese under clothes because 'tradition' to train in could be considered 'wank factor' on it's own... it is only a question then of how much of a wanker you want to look like.

He had not considered it quite like that.

My thoughts then are simply this: At the point where we play dress up because 'tradition', then the only point is how much to you want to buy into that and take it as far as you like and or are comfortable with.

Belts with rank on them... well, mine are all bare.. blank.. not even a brand name badge. Sticking out of the Hakama... as I said, cheesy and pretentious. In an art that supposedly guides one to let go of their ego... well, that sure seems like one way of the ego just beaming on through to me.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:14 PM   #4
Dave Gallagher
Dojo: Shobukan Dojo, St.Louis
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Re: Belts sticking out

The only thing as silly as the belt end sticking out of the sides is the Traditional Karate groups who have competitions and the officials wear not only their karate gi but a hakama with their rank belts tied on the outside of the hakama. Pure bullshit.

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:26 PM   #5
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
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Re: Belts sticking out

Why do you care? Seriously. What does it matter? It is more comfortable that way for me.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Shodan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 12-12-2013, 10:45 PM   #6
Stephen Nichol
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Re: Belts sticking out

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
Why do you care? Seriously. What does it matter? It is more comfortable that way for me.
Hi Robin,

This is not personal so please bear with me on this.

1. The original post was about 'belt rank sticking outside of Hakama'
2. My feelings about 'belt rank (and other :stuff: )' being embroidered on a belt and perhaps 'also' being intentionally left hanging out on display for all to see, was something I dislike.
3. Dave's post was about senior Karate practitioners wearing their belts outside the Hakama which is completely absurd given how Hakama were traditionally worn in Japan.

So in the context of the points above is your post about more about you being more comfortable with your belt ends hanging out of your Hakama or the need to display your rank?

(to clarify my point, I tie my belt in a way that the ends are tucked in with natural folds of it as it goes around my waist and not just let them flop around. They are not the way of anything and so no less comfortable than wearing the belt itself.)
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Old 12-13-2013, 01:31 AM   #7
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Belts sticking out

This makes it easier to see if you're kicking the ass of someone of higher rank, or, having your ass kicked by someone of higher rank. The fact that they want to (or are unintentionally) broadcasting their rank is something to be born in mind but, I would say, no big deal. If the broadcasting is important (e.g.: because the relationship is in err), you can change it yourself. I've been shut down by enough beginners and white belts and at the same time (and at the same level in my own progression), I've stopped enough shihans to understand that rank is at first a matter of relationship with one's teacher. From there, it is a matter of cooperation (not necessarily in training) with the aim of promulgation and cross-pollination within the art. At worst, rank is a way of humiliating those who take it too seriously for those seriously pursuing the art. For those with other motives, the levels of abuse are great. Someone "purposely" showing you their "higher level" is making it easy for you. If you can, I'd say enjoy it.
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Old 12-13-2013, 06:11 AM   #8
Dave Gallagher
Dojo: Shobukan Dojo, St.Louis
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Re: Belts sticking out

I just consider this to be in the same league as those guys that wear their pants down to their thighs and showing most of their underwear. It just looks silly.

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
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Old 12-13-2013, 07:53 AM   #9
Keith Larman
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Re: Belts sticking out

Had some kids come for a while once. Brother and sister, mid-teens. Both came from a striking art that apparently had a lot of programs that generated patches and what-not. Generally most stuff like this just makes me smile because while I don't have any use for it, well, whatever floats your boat. And I'm sure the parents were proud of their "integrity" patch or whatever (although I'm not sure how they test or qualify for that -- maybe they did a good deed). Anywho... The one thing that I just couldn't quite get over was the fact that each kid's gi had their name on the back -- large lettering. But not just that. It was "John Smith - Black Belt". I wanted to ask them if it was so they didn't mix up their gi (brother and sister) and whether the "black belt" part was in case they forgot which belt to wear... The kids looked like Nascar drivers...

Now, all that said, we walk around in freaking riding pants. Or are they better described as Cullottes (sp?)? I tell the kids I teach that they're magic pants of power.

So all that said... It's tradition. We let students wear the hakama at 2nd kyu. I've seen a few folk over the years let their belt hang out a bit more once they pass shodan. For a little while. Doesn't really bug me and I honestly don't remember if I did that as well. I've also noticed a few 2nd and 1st kyu work really hard to wrap the hakama straps around the brown belt as much as humanly possible hiding it away. But whatever. It's all kinda silly on one level or another. And frankly if they stay long enough usually all this stuff just becomes what you wear when you train.

A few years back I horrified a kids class by suddenly pulling off my hakama. They were getting footwork wrong and I wanted them to watch how I was moving. The kids giggled and screamed accordingly. And yes, I was wearing pants underneath. So it's kinda funny to me that they thought it was funny that I was teaching partially undressed even though in the end I was wearing exactly what they were wearing... I had one of the older kids who arrived early for the next class tell me she hardly recognized me wearing "normal" stuff.

And now I have no idea where I'm going with my post... Mostly I'm just relaying what the voices in my head are saying. Nice to have them back -- excellent.... Sorry, carry on...

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:06 AM   #10
Keith Larman
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Re: Belts sticking out

Hold on -- voices are back.

It was probably a decade ago, but I had a booth at the San Francisco Token Kai (highly technical Japanese translation -- "big, honking Japanese Sword show filled with sword geeks"). I was standing there behind my table, bored out of my mind, and I notice a guy in a black gi, hakama and belt walking about. Um, okay, interesting. This is San Francisco so you do occasionally see an, um, unusual person, but why on earth was he in his magical martial arts power outfit in a hotel ballroom at a convention? I was pretty sure there were no power ranger exhibitions going on. He came by my table and looked at a few things. He recognized my name and we chatted. But I couldn't get my mind off his belt -- it was a black belt but it was covered with tiny colored stripes. I never got up the courage to ask about the belt (tied neatly outside his hakama -- which is rare but done sometimes in some arts BTW). Anyway, it was a bit hard to see over the rather profound overhang that was the future cause of his heart failure. As he walked off I realized he was wearing geta too... I was pondering his outfit and the rationale for wearing it at a sword show when two other guys walk up. Guy #1 had his gi on but closed in the Japanese "Time to Bury This Guy" style. Shoved through his obi was a tanto. He pulls it out to proudly show this piece of his handiwork. Now I'm usually the guy who will look, try to encourage, and make a few suggestions. Here I had no idea where to start. The term SLO came to mind (sword like object). So I suggested he continue clopping around (yup, geta too) and look at the, oh, thousands of mounts on the floor. As he talked away I realized he had a small bit of his hair tied up on top -- yes, a baby top-knot...

I later found out the first guy was in town for the sword show and was a "big-deal" sensei somewhere or another with lots of students. And he taught some art that combined Japanese arts, Korean Arts, Chinese Arts and American sensibilities. He was apparently a little sketchy with the folk who knew something about Japanese Arts as to exactly *which* arts he studied. Regardless, seemed like a nice guy. Interesting fashion sense.

These later guys who came by were students of a San Fran local guy who is rather infamous as being the only person ever banned from a sword show. He started as a Chinese guy (which apparently is what he is). Then he was a Ninja guy for a while when that was big in the 80's. After that he somehow obtained a nationality assignment operation and became Japanese. And now he's a Japanese sword "expert".

So yeah, a bit delusional. But I must admit that after watching these guys I realized that in this modern day and age, isn't it really just a question of degree? For all of us?

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:19 AM   #11
Richard Stevens
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Re: Belts sticking out

Quote:
Dave Gallagher wrote: View Post
The only thing as silly as the belt end sticking out of the sides is the Traditional Karate groups who have competitions and the officials wear not only their karate gi but a hakama with their rank belts tied on the outside of the hakama. Pure bullshit.
The belt outside of the Hakama is common among Jujutsu groups. I preferred to keep mine under the hakama.
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:11 AM   #12
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Belts sticking out

question, if you have nothing under the hakama, a la commando, do you still need the belt? and do you wear the belt outside, if your hakama is velcro and you are with the Village People?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:13 AM   #13
phitruong
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Re: Belts sticking out

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
. Mostly I'm just relaying what the voices in my head are saying. Nice to have them back -- excellent.... Sorry, carry on...
one must not lose the voices in one's head. they are the only thing that help with sanity.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-13-2013, 10:25 AM   #14
Rob Watson
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Re: Belts sticking out

One of these days I'm going to show up at an international seminar with my hak tied up like the very first hak I ever saw in that Bruce Lee movie where the dude was wearing the hak ... backwards!

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 12-13-2013, 10:27 AM   #15
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
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Re: Belts sticking out

It is not my belt sticking out of my hakama that I worry about.
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Old 12-13-2013, 10:27 AM   #16
Krystal Locke
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Re: Belts sticking out

The only time my belt should show even a bit from under my hak is when I'm feeling uppity and wearing the pink belt I got the gf a while back. Hey, if my sensei can take it to wear at a seminar he's teaching, I can certainly wear it at the dojo once in a while. Annoys the stuffier sempai, and I like that.

About the patchy gi thingy, I have three letters. BJJ. What is up with that? The art seems to go from no-gi/rash guard/slippery/(maybe vaseline???) attempts to not give opponents a handle to wearing a gi with additional extra bonus traction devices. And how can a person not see them coming from miles away?

As long as we're on fashion faux-pas, I have two. Wearing the kit outside of training, even just to get to the dojo. I find it to be unsafe and generally ego driven. Sensei or sempai or anyone wearing non-gi Japanese clothing, especially for media purposes. Kinda creepy. Ok, three. Spending real money on something that's going to get hella trashed in a few months if I am training right. Of course, my gi will be clean, repaired, and safely functional. That's it. It is work clothes. It is a consumable.

My latest dorkalicious story. I was asked to help lead the college class we occasionally do. Typical mix, couple jocks (great to train with), couple theatre people (also great), Yusuke the Tomiki yudansha exchange student who was excited as all shit out to find aikido of any sort in the little podunk town his school is in (super great to train with), purple belt guy from up the road (prettty good, but a bit of "at my dojo" syndrome), 19 year old Dave who "got all the way to orange belt in TKD when he was a kid" who kept telling me you can kill someone with a palm strike to the nose/touch of death heart punch to kill someone/only takes 7 ounces of pressure to kill someone/kill someone/I dont know my right ass from my left elbow but I know 37 ways to kill someone/oh, and kill someone (amusing or frustrating depending on the day), and then there was him.

Him, 150 lb, 5' 11.9999" skinny white guy from Eastern Oregon, said he was self-taught in kenjiujitsudo. Walked into every class with a indigo gi and hakama, hakama three inches longer than his legs to be sure to hide his secret footwork. Had a rubber tanto in his obi because he didn't want to hurt anyone but his real training, this was just something to do while in school, compelled him to always have a blade of some sort on him and who knew what else he had hidden upon him so dont fuck with him. Topknot and dreads and beaded thread wraps, all under a dread bag and a Naruto hachmaki and tekkou. Would not practice ukemi because nobody could make him fall down (.........) Tried to teach us the throat finger stab that Inuyasha used against Bankotsu, but came from his style of martial arts. His power level, IT'S OVER 9000

Cosplay != aikido.
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Old 12-13-2013, 10:37 AM   #17
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
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Re: Belts sticking out

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Had some kids come for a while once. Brother and sister, mid-teens. Both came from a striking art that apparently had a lot of programs that generated patches and what-not. Generally most stuff like this just makes me smile because while I don't have any use for it, well, whatever floats your boat. And I'm sure the parents were proud of their "integrity" patch or whatever (although I'm not sure how they test or qualify for that -- maybe they did a good deed). Anywho... The one thing that I just couldn't quite get over was the fact that each kid's gi had their name on the back -- large lettering. But not just that. It was "John Smith - Black Belt". I wanted to ask them if it was so they didn't mix up their gi (brother and sister) and whether the "black belt" part was in case they forgot which belt to wear... The kids looked like Nascar drivers...
This. http://www.mmawarehouse.com/tatami_s...7-69349E190D2E

My eyes are tired.

This, http://georgetteoden.blogspot.com/20...e-dyed-gi.html , however, is awesome.
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Old 12-13-2013, 10:57 AM   #18
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Belts sticking out

got a kid from local taewondo school, with black belt and patches. he came to practice with us for awhile. we did bokken stuffs. he asked me if we have a reversed blade bokken. i actually knew what he was asking. hey, when you got young boys at home, you know these things. so i kept a straight face, and flipped my bokken over then tap him on the head. he said "ow". i said "i guessed that worked". i turned the bokken over to the side and tap him on the head. he said "ow". i said "that worked too". then i said "you know! i have this weapon that you can reverse in anyway you want and it would work the same way" i pulled the weapon of the rack and handed to him. he said "it's a stick!" i said "yup!" and was trying very hard to keep a straight face.

kids these days! luckily my kids, like me, just like the normal weaponry stuffs. although, they have been eying my hatchet lately and licking their chops. hey keith, you do hatchet?!!!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-13-2013, 11:44 AM   #19
Cliff Judge
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Re: Belts sticking out

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Sensei or sempai or anyone wearing non-gi Japanese clothing, especially for media purposes. Kinda creepy.
I totally wear yukata and jinbei and stuff around the house when it is summer time.
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Old 12-13-2013, 12:41 PM   #20
Millsy
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Re: Belts sticking out

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
I totally want that Tie Die gi. When I go home to Australia I'll tell my sensei that's what all the cool aikido people are wearing in the US, she'll love it! Hmmm need a Tie Dye Hakama too!
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Old 12-13-2013, 01:01 PM   #21
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Belts sticking out

I too have seen all sorts but for myself, right off the bat from young, my instinct was to be as plain as possible, even if we do run about in Japanese pyjamas. No need for stupid badges and such like - just too pretentious and so against ... my common sense.

I remember many years ago I used to train in the gym in the Edinburgh sports centre. We just wore anything - T shirts etc. - and practiced this and that. One day, two Ninja walked in, dressed from head to toe in black. They started training next to us and it was totally obvious they had no skill whatsoever - beginners. We tried our best not to laugh, gotta be polite after all. Never saw them again - which I suppose meant that maybe their skill had increased.:-) That will remain forever my introduction to Ninjutsu and my opinion remains tainted to this day.

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Old 12-13-2013, 01:16 PM   #22
PeterR
 
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Re: Belts sticking out

Rupert - the really good Ninja are invisible.

Except for the pink suited lady ninjas at the Iga Ninja museum and that's because they want to be seen.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-13-2013, 01:34 PM   #23
SteveTrinkle
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Re: Belts sticking out

[QUOTE=
http://www.google.com/search?q=hello+kitty+hakama&nord=1&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=jv6ZLOjhi5h1qM%253A% 253Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ft1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcS93l2_6 g82hHk-hObWVG9rjXhciMY06H36VF_QVAMz3xYkq-BnQw%253B600%253B738%253B0ZnzIMr3gOBprM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.leotama ki.com%25252Farticle-hakama-blanc-suite-112168101.html&sa=X&ei=726rUu_COvfMsQT7nYCIAg&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAA&biw=1893&bih=944#f acrc=_&imgrc=jv6ZLOjhi5h1qM%3A%3B0ZnzIMr3gOBprM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg.over-blog.com%252F600x738%252F0%252F38%252F57%252F25%252FTAMAKI-LEO%252FAIKIDO%252FLeo-Tamaki-hakama-Hello-Kitty.jpeg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.leotamaki.com%252Farticle-hakama-blanc-suite-112168101.html%3B600%3B738here's what I'm wearing

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Old 12-13-2013, 01:47 PM   #24
jurasketu
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Re: Belts sticking out

@Stephen Nichol - Not offended. Still. I don't see that it matters.

My black belt has gold Japanese characters indicating my name and Aikido on it - so maybe it looks like I'm "displaying" rank. If so, my apologies - certainly not intended. In our organization, only black belts wear hakamas and there is no "stripes", new belt or indicator given for additional dan grade/ranks. So no one can "display" their rank as such. And we know each other's ranks anyway... It's not like its a secret or something. I'm just a shodan in a dojo with six yondans and a collection of skilled sandans and nidans. I'm in no danger of tromping around in my getup with a superiority complex and I'm not afraid to look incompetent in front of anyone (which is a good thing given my proclivity to do so).

I don't care about patches or other symbols that folks rate as pretension. People should be able to wear whatever they wish. For my book, people can wear whatever the hell they want as long as they are decent and kind. I don't care about ragged gis or hakamas - although I prefer ones in good condition for myself.

Of course, to my wife's great annoyance, I don't care about clothing, other than comfort, much at all.

I do wear my dojo T-shirts around town (for advertising purposes). People will often ask me what Aikido is - and so I get to explain and sometimes "sell" Aikido (adult/kids) to them. I guess some folks would see that as pretentious.

Robin

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Shodan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 12-13-2013, 02:45 PM   #25
Keith Larman
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Re: Belts sticking out

The voices have been bugging me ever since I wrote my replies... I know a lot of folk know this, but seriously, the rest of you do realize that the keikogi 99% of us wear is a modern thing, right? With a colored obi that is similarly rather modern? Then with a hakama that, well, isn't so modern? It's not like we're talking about traditions that are 500 years old here. Heck, the keikogi and colored obi thing are pure Meiji era stuff... You know, post samurai and all that. We train in Judo outfits. With hakama. Cause that's what we do. Cause keiko gi were what most folk were training with in judo and they worked out really well for training. And Judo was/is quite popular. And for whatever reason a lot of folk in Aikido ended up with the same keikogi for training. Just with hakama for some for whatever reason (make it more formal looking?).

It just strikes me as odd to complain about belts sticking out, belts over/under hakama, etc. I'm perfectly happy to train in sweats and a t-shirt. It's just training gear. I'm always astounded we'll have this discussion but it seems like no one ever really gets deeply in to the question of why we wear the amazing power skirts (hakama). I swear, I think some come to aikido solely to wear the funny pants sometimes...

And for full disclosure, my obi has kanji for our style on one side and then my name on the other. Because it's my belt and not someone else's. Which makes it a bit easier to not accidentally grab the wrong belt in the dressing room after class. Otherwise the belt is just under the hakama and it hanging out has never been a problem for me. Frankly next time I suit up I"m going to have to pay attention to what I do with the thing when I do get dressed...

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