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Old 12-13-2013, 01:34 PM   #76
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
That the guy is showing how he connects and moves another body, instantaneously on-contact, using internal rather than conventional drivers, is the point. In the context in which he was presenting it, you can observe the effects on uke's breath, body alignment, and (in)ability to continue any kind of free movement or attack. It's a different means of kuzushi than that powered by conventional "external" drivers.
Uke is his student, and we are fully aware of how students react (even inconsciously) to their awesome masters.

BTW, another interesting clip (no fighting):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F75huga-Zz4

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Old 12-13-2013, 01:44 PM   #77
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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I like this one, too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF8zJzmhO2c

Again, not to be confused with fighting . . .
Well I think this one is pretty decent and the level of resistance and adjustment to be about right where it needs to be for this stage of the fight (clinch). both guys are some what evenly matched, although clearly the asian guy has more skill.

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Old 12-13-2013, 02:03 PM   #78
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Re: Aikijujutsu

Also interesting that CZQ didn't have a problem that this stuff was recorded and distributed - I know some of the big dog BJJ folks are way paranoid about stuff getting recorded and have heard more than once at a seminar (once from one of the Gracies hiszelf ) "don't take this stuff out of context" whether it was drills or sparring in certain parameters.
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Old 12-13-2013, 02:05 PM   #79
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Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Uke is his student, and we are fully aware of how students react (even inconsciously) to their awesome masters.

BTW, another interesting clip (no fighting):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F75huga-Zz4
THis is a very interesting clip. There are several ways I think you can look at this. Marcelo Garcia is one of the best grapplers in the world right now. I would have expected him to do better actually. So, I think on one hand it gives merit to this other guy that clearly can hold his own standing against one of the best grapplers in the world.

That said, on the other hand, Marcelo in the end was still able to take him down and establish control on him, with a few exceptions where i'd say the other guy off balanced him, yet unfortunately, he never kept control of him. I think this is more of a byproduct of how he probably trains which is simply to use power to off balance versus gain control of the fight. Whereas Marcelo clearly has a paradigm of gain control and takedown to the ground. So, which is more important in a fight? hard to say really, I think a combination of off balancing and control need to be met in order to claim success.

It is clear to me that Marcelo understands his game and works to stay on the outside of him and use speed and timing to gain control. He also changes levels which is how he primarily gains control of him using double and single leg grabs. Clearly this is not considered within the realm of IS. However, it does work and it does overcome the guys IS game.

However, Marcelo doesn't completely dominate him either does he. So it is an interesting paradox to watch.

So which is more important to fighting? Well, I think it is clear that timing, speed, and agility count fo alot in a fight. If you subscribe to OODA as a process that accurately describes fighting, then I'd say it counts for alot, and that is clear in how Marcelo is able to stay on the outside of the fight and then quickly move in, change levels, and techniques to defeat his game.

However, what happens when you don't have speed, timing, and agility on your side? Well I think that the things the other guys matters a whole lot. You need structure and frame to overcome those things and I think he does it quite well.

I can't say for sure if Marcelo can do that too as I have never seen him do it. But, Marcelo is young, in shape, at the top of his game, and clearly he has a strategy that works for him in sport fighting.

Again, the parameters and conditions are limited, but this is even more unconstrained than the other two examples as you have two guys with two different backgrounds and skill sets trying to impose their strategies on each other.

I think this makes for a more interesting and productive environment and one in which you can have a fairly authentic dialogue about what works and doesn't work. Essentially the "group think" or "sensei worship" is removed and training and feedback can occur more spontaneously.

I must assume that Marcelo was spending time with this guy because he felt it was worth his while. It will be interesting to see how he adapts/adopts things into his training as he gets older and is no longer at the top of his athletic game.

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Old 12-13-2013, 02:12 PM   #80
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Re: Aikijujutsu

I think Marcelo did well considering he's not a top guy at standup grappling. The ground game is where he shows his geniality.

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Old 12-13-2013, 02:22 PM   #81
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Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Also interesting that CZQ didn't have a problem that this stuff was recorded and distributed - I know some of the big dog BJJ folks are way paranoid about stuff getting recorded and have heard more than once at a seminar (once from one of the Gracies hiszelf ) "don't take this stuff out of context" whether it was drills or sparring in certain parameters.
Thats awesome.

Actually I think it has been well established that the Gracies are not the end all be all of everything martial. We can look to the UFC to see that. The had a strategy that was well played that complimented their strengths and they understood fighting (and still do) very well, and understood how they could exploit this in a grand way against other fighting paradigms that were based less on a realistic model. Hence we have Rorion the great promoter come up with the concept of UFC. (His great grandfather WAS a circus promoter).

The evidence is how once the Gracie's shattered the paradigm of fighting and what it really was, others began to understand this, and began to adjust there training. Couple that with the commercialization of UFC, the establishment of time constraints and judges decisions to turn it into a spectator sport, and now you have people that can train to defeat your strategy! And now you have MMA systems that have developed that are not really martial arts so much as they are training regimes for a sport. However, that is another issue all together.

I think the takeaway from this is a couple of things. 1. we learned (or should have learned) that in order to fight, you had to actually understand what the fight was about and you had to train to that fight. 2. That, fight strategies matter...ALOT and you need to adopt the right ones. ( I think this is the same as #1 though really. 3. That TMAs needed to change if they expected to be taken seriously after the public was now introduced to what fighting was really about and it wasn't mystical or secret.

about the comments about constraints and not taking things out of context and in certain parameters...yeah what comes around goes around, everything must be caveated of course. I think there is nothing wrong with it as long as we understand those caveats, parameters and we don't over attribute or make "huge jumps" in conclusions about possibilities when we don't take time to understand those caveats.

There is alot of stupid stuff going on in BJJ. ALOT. I have several guys I train with that will never progress very far because of their fascination with the latest techniques that are being employed in tournaments. i.e the Berimbolo comes to mind. It works initially because it is a new thing. It is not expected, and it upsets that whole OODA process. A few guys perfect it, and it works for them for a while until someone breaks the code on it, and then it becomes the norm and it no longer works again. Guys that base their games off the latest techniques are doomed for failure since they fail to gain a solid foundation in training and will always be behind since they are dependent on "tricks" and "feats of athleticism".

Great discussion!

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Old 12-13-2013, 02:23 PM   #82
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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I think Marcelo did well considering he's not a top guy at standup grappling. The ground game is where he shows his geniality.
I was gonna say that too...but come one thats a cop out at his level. However, it does expose one of the big weaknesses in a grapplers game. I am sure if they would have been on the ground, it would have been a completely different set of tools being implemented.

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Old 12-13-2013, 02:38 PM   #83
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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There is alot of stupid stuff going on in BJJ. ALOT. I have several guys I train with that will never progress very far because of their fascination with the latest techniques that are being employed in tournaments. i.e the Berimbolo comes to mind. It works initially because it is a new thing. It is not expected, and it upsets that whole OODA process. A few guys perfect it, and it works for them for a while until someone breaks the code on it, and then it becomes the norm and it no longer works again. Guys that base their games off the latest techniques are doomed for failure since they fail to gain a solid foundation in training and will always be behind since they are dependent on "tricks" and "feats of athleticism".
Completely agree.

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Old 12-13-2013, 02:42 PM   #84
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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... He also changes levels which is how he primarily gains control of him using double and single leg grabs. Clearly this is not considered within the realm of IS. However, it does work and it does overcome the guys IS game.
Actually, one of the first IS applications I was shown outside my own dojo was a defense against a double-leg grab. I sucked at it, but sucked worse without it. And I recently had a good time with another group exploring the use of IS against Judo submissions. It's not all push hands.

Going back to the analogy of learning to ride a bike: The IS situation is like teaching a kid to ride a bike after he's gotten really good with training wheels. (A friend was bitching about this the other day.) All the kid's instincts are wrong--if he feels himself going over he throws his weight over to that side and bounces off the training wheel. When he gets to a real bike, he's got to re-learn all his responses from the ground up, because on a real bike they just put him in the dirt.

Better than training wheels is to give the kid a scooter. I told my kids when they could ride the scooter, I'd teach them to ride a bike. They learned the right balance skills and responses on the scooter, where consequences of failure were minimal. Then learning to ride a bike took about half an hour.

I think that's a close analogy to what you're talking about. Training skills and building them up in an environment where you can afford to fail, and then moving to more stressful situations.

Trouble with the analogy is to make it accurate you have to assume the training wheels are always there. At any moment if you get blocked or pinned or just feel overmastered, it's tempting to pull them out and use them. From your point of view that might not be a problem--use the IS skills where you can, use your other skills where you can't. But if those other skills get in the way of IS, what then? It's like Tiger Woods spending a year retooling his swing--he had to quit competing for that year because during that time he sucked. If he competed, he'd have to pull out the swing he was trying to get rid of, so he had to stop altogether.

Which is what I meant about having to be willing to fail. You have to be willing to land in the dirt rather than use the training wheels. Everybody has to make their own call on whether that's worth it.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 12-13-2013, 02:43 PM   #85
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Re: Aikijujutsu

Since we are posting Marcelo vids. Here is one with Eddie Bravo on the ground. I think it demonstrates some decent Jiu Jitsu. I'm not a fan of Eddie's really, but he is good. What I like it the degree of control and use of contact, balance, and movement throughout their grappling. Marcelo on the ground uses less athleticism and speed. Against a good grappler, he must use other things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1ueQaJSOIg

IS in this? well I think so, but it is not pure and it is combined with alot of other things as is required to work against a uncooperative and equally skilled opponent.

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Old 12-13-2013, 02:48 PM   #86
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Re: Aikijujutsu

Hugh wrote:

Quote:
But if those other skills get in the way of IS, what then? It's like Tiger Woods spending a year retooling his swing--he had to quit competing for that year because during that time he sucked. If he competed, he'd have to pull out the swing he was trying to get rid of, so he had to stop altogether.
Thats a very good point I think. I think this is the point the Lee, Budd and a few others are making. Of course, they are with years and years of experience, so I think that this is different for them than it may be for others.

I know when I stalled out as a purple belt in BJJ, I had to really step outside of my context and only work on specific things to get past that. It was hard as I had to lose alot. I had to let go of what I knew and retool. However, I did it within the context of my current training criteria as well.

I'd say the same about Tiger, he reset, but I am sure he still worked well within the parameters of feedback mechanisms that supported his golf game. As long as we are cognizant about those things, then we can train correctly and rapidly integrate what we learn back into our "game".

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Old 12-13-2013, 03:31 PM   #87
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Re: Aikijujutsu

Kevin - that part (as I'm sure you're aware) I agree with 100%. Just being a black belt doesn't mean you can fight (or are a spiritual leader, or healer, or all the other cultish nonsense that a martial arts teacher con man will try to tell you). Having brute strength, internal strength, stench strength, grip strength, quip strength or toe strength won't automatically make you a better fighter. YET AMONG EQUALS ANY ONE OF THOSE ATTRIBUTES CAN PROVIDE AN ADVANTAGE IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT.

Can we get this crafted on stone somewhere. Take a picture and just post the picture anytime anyone else starts talking about fighting, or internals or or or . . .

Howsabout some AIKACHOOJITSU. I'm going to drink now.

Ban me, please.
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Old 12-13-2013, 03:57 PM   #88
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Re: Aikijujutsu

Iol....yeah...I need to be banned as well! but it's been a great conversation. intoxicating and addictive! have a great weekend!

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Old 12-13-2013, 04:45 PM   #89
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Uke is his student, and we are fully aware of how students react (even inconsciously) to their awesome masters.
That's a valid point in many situations, but keep in mind that the very large person had never trained with this person - it was his first experience. The instructor is going very easy on him because of that, but even so, you can see how easily he can control the big guy's center, and his reaction the the whole experience, at the end of the second video.
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Old 12-13-2013, 06:27 PM   #90
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
That's a valid point in many situations, but keep in mind that the very large person had never trained with this person - it was his first experience. The instructor is going very easy on him because of that, but even so, you can see how easily he can control the big guy's center, and his reaction the the whole experience, at the end of the second video.
Sorry, I was thinking in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRYbfTP-1AA

(Note to self: Do not read various threads in different forums at the same time)

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Old 12-13-2013, 07:00 PM   #91
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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I was supposed to meet with that certain someone this year and he couldn't make it due to family issues. I have been trying! I've been hoping that he could show me how things work in the conditions and parameters I subscribe too.

How would such skills NOT be relevant? I am not arguing that they are not...if they are developed in such a way that allows them to be used under those conditions. That's been my point all along.

For example, doing the Jo trick and other aiki skills test are fine...just fine. However those things/skills are executed under very tight parameters and controls. (restrictive environment)....if you change the conditions, then what? that is what I am concerned with. How well do you fight in a given set of conditions?
Those jo tricks and other demos are meant to be just that -- demonstrations of IP and aiki in and of themselves, outside of a martial context. A lot of the "old masters" in Japan and China did such things - perhaps to amuse and amaze, and to attempt to show observers something that otherwise would be invisible unless one is in direct physical contact with someone who is "doing stuff" on the inside.

Quote:
This is where I probably disagree...I think they can and should be trained in an integrated approach. Albeit, I also recognize that isolation of training techniques are necessary to reinforce training.
Actually, you aren't disagreeing with me, as that is pretty much what I was referencing, when I mentioned conditioning-in the skills in increments, and likewise combining them in increments.

I said that they represent two separate disciplines; I did not say that they should not both be practiced concurrently, as part of the same art and curriculum. It's not really cross-training so much as it is recognizing two separate sets of exercises, training drills and goals that will be combined to create a product that is greater than either of its component parts.

Some systems start out just doing fighting apps, then add internals to them. Others start with internals, then later show how to fight with them. Still others embed the internal stuff within the martial technique, and the "shape" of the technique is specifically designed to be powered by internal methods (as opposed to conventional movement).

It's interesting that even in some very conservative systems that started out with jujutsu or chin-na technique, adding internals to them later in the curriculum, some of the senior teachers are advocating for introducing the internal training at the beginning so students can start inculcating an "aiki" body before they can wire in bad habits from external technique training. This is a very wise move, IMO.

Quote:
However, for me, why would you study with someone that can't demonstrate how to transition that methodology to the conditions and criteria you ultimately need to meet? That has been my on going issue with this topic. That is, integration.

I am looking for that certain someone that can show how to do that. My adopted training strategy is open enough to incorporate anything that proves to leads to where I am going!

Lets cut to the core of the matter. We've been having this discussion for almost 10 years now when certain people I think around 2004 and 2005 came on here and started discussing IS/IT training methods.

So where are we now? how are those folks doing? and how has it been integrated into various training regimes martially?

Recognizing that, of course, we have different people with different objectives in training. I think this would be a more positive and constructive conversation to have instead of heading off into the land of validating and invalidating IS/IT training.

I mean after close to 8 to 10 years of training, we should be able to definitively say where folks are in the process and how it has improved whatever they do and how it has informed/changed how they train. I am really curious about transference and integration. I mean, doing Jo tricks and AIki test are one thing, but we need to transcend this and put it to use at some point.

It is a shame that so many of the folks that are advocates are no longer posting here on aikiweb for various reasons.

I am asking because I am genuinely curious and want to see where everyone is. Me personally, I have sideline the training methods as a primary mode of training for a number of reasons. one, lack of good instruction and partners with interest. Two, I could not figure out how to justify spending my time doing this as it came at the expense of other things I was doing martially. I think those are the two main reasons.

However, I did find through my exposure that I was able to incorporate some of the concepts in what I do, and some of the concepts were already present in my training, we just needed to recognize it and work to enhance those things.

thanks for your patience on this Topic Cady!
Yes, it's really unfortunate that most of those 2004-2005 folks are no longer on this board to tell their tales. However, I have remained in contact with some of them, and they comment on their progress from time to time. People -are- learning this stuff and incorporating it into their various arts. I don't know anyone using them specifically for combatives, however. Mainly, they're being used in aikido, AJJ, and some Chinese arts.

For myself, I have been training in IP/aiki since 1998, and I have some very decent power and skills which I am now learning to use in different ways than what I originally came up in. The learning process never ends, and mixing it up makes things more balanced, challenging and interesting. However, my area of interest, both for personal training focus and for teaching, is in self-defense, particularly for women and children, being that I'm female. I'm not really interested in pursuing male ritual combat (which is what at least 90% of the stuff you're talking about, ultimately is) anymore, although that is how I have had to train for the past 40 years. Self-defense, as I see it, is very intense in its own right... not just about stopping drunken gropers. On some levels, it shares common aspects with combatives training, IME. But there are some tactical and strategic aspects to it that differ from the traditional male-perspective approach, and that's what I am investing a lot of my energies into analyzing and forming into a practice that can be taught and learned by others.

(As an aside, it always amused me to read the quotes of the Great Internal Masters who stated that "a woman or small child can defeat a much larger and more powerful man..." with their internal MA; yet, where is the roll call of female students they produced, other than perhaps their wives, by osmosis and association, and the rare female disciple?)

Internal training has more than met my hopes and expectations for efficacy in my area of focus.

For you, I really believe that once you have engaged with someone who can show you clearly how fighting and IP/aiki work as one unit, you will have no doubts about how it compares in effectiveness to fighting that is driven by conventional body movement. And for your specific interests, I can't think of a better person to do that for you than... well, you know who.
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Old 12-13-2013, 07:58 PM   #92
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sorry, I was thinking in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRYbfTP-1AA

(Note to self: Do not read various threads in different forums at the same time)
Demetrio,
That clip was discussed on another discussion board, too. Although it looks like uke is jumping and throwing himself around, it's not an act and it's not self-hypnosis. He has to move that way for a couple of reasons: one, because some of the stuff is excruciatingly painful and he's instinctively trying to remove himself from the painful pressure, and, two, because uke is being propelled by force -- that you can't see, but you can note the cues in nage.

It's locking him up (controlling his alignment), and stuffing him downward into his center of mass, among other things. Nage can cause uke to jerk in different directions by subtly "pulsing" force through uke's center via the point(s) of contact and slightly moving his own direction... which then makes uke have move that way too, like he's stuck to the agitator of a top-loading washing machine.

If you watch nage's waist you may be able to see a slight jerking as uke gets moved to the side. Watch nage's lower abdomen and lower-to-mid-level of his back when uke is either popped up on his toes or "stuffed" downward. You might be able to see a very subtle rolling or contraction-expansion of the lower abdomen and stretching or expansion of his back.

When uke jerks back and forth, or flops like a ragdoll, his body is mirroring what nage is doing, in much smaller and more concise movements, inside his own body. Think of a whip making big, rolling snaps although the whip wielder is making only tiny movements of his own body and arm.

So, yeah, it looks contrived and fake, but ... having been exposed to that kind of stuff myself, uke's movements are entirely "normal" and expected.
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Old 12-13-2013, 08:35 PM   #93
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Demetrio,
That clip was discussed on another discussion board, too. Although it looks like uke is jumping and throwing himself around, it's not an act and it's not self-hypnosis. He has to move that way for a couple of reasons: one, because some of the stuff is excruciatingly painful and he's instinctively trying to remove himself from the painful pressure, and, two, because uke is being propelled by force -- that you can't see, but you can note the cues in nage.

It's locking him up (controlling his alignment), and stuffing him downward into his center of mass, among other things. Nage can cause uke to jerk in different directions by subtly "pulsing" force through uke's center via the point(s) of contact and slightly moving his own direction... which then makes uke have move that way too, like he's stuck to the agitator of a top-loading washing machine.

If you watch nage's waist you may be able to see a slight jerking as uke gets moved to the side. Watch nage's lower abdomen and lower-to-mid-level of his back when uke is either popped up on his toes or "stuffed" downward. You might be able to see a very subtle rolling or contraction-expansion of the lower abdomen and stretching or expansion of his back.

When uke jerks back and forth, or flops like a ragdoll, his body is mirroring what nage is doing, in much smaller and more concise movements, inside his own body. Think of a whip making big, rolling snaps although the whip wielder is making only tiny movements of his own body and arm.

So, yeah, it looks contrived and fake, but ... having been exposed to that kind of stuff myself, uke's movements are entirely "normal" and expected.
Cady, I like this one considerably less than the other one featuring this fellow. Even for a demo, the person receiving this should not be allowing themselves to be a locked up dummy. If he was learning anything he wouldn't have to sell the nonsense and could just keep himself safe by absorbing this stuff appropriately while still allowing the demonstrator to show the efficacy of his skills. Grr. Dumb. Too much of this nonsense in aiki-land and martial arts in general.

Kids, don't train to give yourself up like a punching dummy.
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:26 PM   #94
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Cady, I like this one considerably less than the other one featuring this fellow. Even for a demo, the person receiving this should not be allowing themselves to be a locked up dummy. If he was learning anything he wouldn't have to sell the nonsense and could just keep himself safe by absorbing this stuff appropriately while still allowing the demonstrator to show the efficacy of his skills. Grr. Dumb. Too much of this nonsense in aiki-land and martial arts in general.

Kids, don't train to give yourself up like a punching dummy.
Yeah, I would like to have seen some serious resistance on uke's part.

The one thing I will say in defense of this kind of lesson approach, though, is that when you feel what it's like to give a really committed attack on someone with this kind of body conditioning, you NEVER want to do it again. It can be -that- shocky, painful, compressive, and also head whip-lashing. If we had trained full-speed, we'd have been so wrecked all the time that it would have kept a lot of students sidelined more than they'd be on the mats.

I had some bad injuries and cumulative damage from years of training even at a moderate or "lite" intensity, and some resulted in permanent damage, though- fortunately - they're things I can live with. And it's not just because I'm a woman; even large, strong men can get wrecked from hard training in this discipline. It is what it is.

BTW, that little bit at the very end of this clip... watch it again. The instructor does something that was done to me many a time over the years (and I learned to do, as well... ) ... and the student mutters "It sucks..." as he recovers on the ground. That was one of the most frequent remarks heard in the dojo where I trained. Over and over again, we would shake our heads in utter amazement as we said that little phrase after we'd gotten our breath back. And everyone would nod.
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Old 12-14-2013, 06:06 AM   #95
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Those jo tricks and other demos are meant to be just that -- demonstrations of IP and aiki in and of themselves, outside of a martial context. A lot of the "old masters" in Japan and China did such things - perhaps to amuse and amaze, and to attempt to show observers something that otherwise would be invisible unless one is in direct physical contact with someone who is "doing stuff" on the inside.
Well, maybe we are all past this ridiculous level of argument in our understanding now and everyone understands that it is a means to an end and not the end state itself. I think as knowledge increases and we have people that begin to integrate IS things into their pursuits then we can have discussions that center around better models of applications than simple push hands or jo tricks. However, I do understand the need for those things to communicate through a constrained and controlled practice.

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Some systems start out just doing fighting apps, then add internals to them. Others start with internals, then later show how to fight with them. Still others embed the internal stuff within the martial technique, and the "shape" of the technique is specifically designed to be powered by internal methods (as opposed to conventional movement).
so it appears that maybe there are several ways of training. One being a very ascetic "don't do anything else" approach for a very long time until you have burned this stuff in. A second one that says train the separate, but concurrent. and a Third that says, that the training is integrated (implicit) in the same system of training. I'd also say there is a fourth one that is really like #3, but recognizes that while the training may be imbedded in the system, you will have to recognize that certain drills, kata, and exercises will have to be performed that transmit this knowledge.

I think the methods used by Feldenkrais or AT may be of importance since they have proven to be successful in helping people reshape habits. Not saying that these two should be the way to train IS, but I think there is some merit in looking at their methods as successful ones that may prove to be of some importance when considering how to balance your training.

Finally, which I think is the most important point, you need to develop a clear and concise feedback plan for your martial practice. It may vary depending on your goals.

One thing that concerns me with the "IS revolution" over the past 10 years is that maybe people are not adjusting there feedback methods. That is, if you practiced a martially anemic practice before, such as some of the aikido some people do, then look to new methods of IS training to "get martially better", and you STILL use the same old feedback process you used before to test yourself, then you are never going to get better martially, you will still be anemic once your meet a sincere non-compliant, constantly adaptive uke.

So, for me, I would look at maybe adjusting your feedback mechanisms and maybe incorporating new ones that serve as a better measure of how IS training can be implemented and useful to you.

Look, I am a realist I think. I am approaching 50 now....so I would have no pretense that I am going to head out to the nearest MMA gym and bang it up with some young guys. I've had a Torn LCL, MCL, and ACL this past year as well as AC separation doing this stuff...so those days are having to be put behind me now!

However, I do think that you can still adapt "honest" stress loaded processes of uncooperativeness and aliveness that do not require you to get hurt while still holding yourself accountable.

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For myself, I have been training in IP/aiki since 1998, and I have some very decent power and skills which I am now learning to use in different ways than what I originally came up in. The learning process never ends, and mixing it up makes things more balanced, challenging and interesting. However, my area of interest, both for personal training focus and for teaching, is in self-defense, particularly for women and children, being that I'm female. I'm not really interested in pursuing male ritual combat (which is what at least 90% of the stuff you're talking about, ultimately is) anymore, although that is how I have had to train for the past 40 years. Self-defense, as I see it, is very intense in its own right... not just about stopping drunken gropers. On some levels, it shares common aspects with combatives training, IME. But there are some tactical and strategic aspects to it that differ from the traditional male-perspective approach, and that's what I am investing a lot of my energies into analyzing and forming into a practice that can be taught and learned by others.
Thanks for sharing this Cady. I think it is important to understand how each of us is attempting to integrate our training into accompishing specific goals and objectives.

Mine are changing and evolving. I am recognizing that 20 year old knuckleheads don't want to listen to an old guy much and I find that I get hurt when trying to take them on! There are alot of people out there looking to improve and do something better. There certainly are different ways to reach different people and as we get older our perspectives and practices will certainly change and grow I hope.

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Old 12-14-2013, 09:59 AM   #96
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
One thing that concerns me with the "IS revolution" over the past 10 years is that maybe people are not adjusting there feedback methods. That is, if you practiced a martially anemic practice before, such as some of the aikido some people do, then look to new methods of IS training to "get martially better", and you STILL use the same old feedback process you used before to test yourself, then you are never going to get better martially, you will still be anemic once your meet a sincere non-compliant, constantly adaptive uke.
Yup.
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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
So, for me, I would look at maybe adjusting your feedback mechanisms and maybe incorporating new ones that serve as a better measure of how IS training can be implemented and useful to you.
And what new feedback mechanisms do you think would be useful?

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:24 PM   #97
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Re: Aikijujutsu

Which methods you use to create a feedback system depends on what it is that you want to do with what you have learned. I am going to assume that for most of us, it is going to center around self defense.

I have a bias, like everyone else, so you must keep that in mind. I am bound by my training experiences, but I think they are pretty good ones.

First, I think we have to recognize that every action takes place within a decision cycle, regardless of if it is implicit or explicitly made. OODA I think provides us a good model of that. I think John Boyd did a pretty good job of developing a syntax and a framework that describes how fighting works regardless of the number of opponents, time, distance, space, weapons etc that are being used. I think whatever methods you use needs to take the OODA decision cycle into account.

So, a good way of training recognizes that one person is typically behind (losing) and one person is typically ahead (winning). Your training methods need to take this into account and you need to incorporate such things as being overwhelmed, confused, and in really bad positions. You must learn to manage fights from being behind in that process and to recover from such positions. I think all self defense situations should assume that you are surprised by the confrontation of what is happening to you, you are disoriented, and need to develop default habits and behaviors to recover to better positions.

TMAs tend to do the opposite. From my experiences, they tend to take the paradigm that the best way to learn is to learn good posture, habits, and the practice from a "zero mistake mentality".

I don't think this is entirely true in Aikido if practiced correctly, as the roll of uke should be that of one in a bad position and you are trying to recover. I think this is why our teachers have stressed that the role of uke is the most important. Although, Aikido tends to address the midrange fighting skills where we commonly will engage with weapons, and does not practice the grappling range, which in my opinion is where most H2H encounters are going to end up, either in the standing clinch or on the ground. Or, the break contact and the fight either goes back to weapons range or the fight dissapates due to police, bystanders, or cooling heads prevail.

The other thing that is lacking in many practices is the implementation of good randori. This is where the OODA effects are really practiced and you get to make your mistakes under near real pressure.

I think randori is avoided because many feel that it degrades to a grappling fight and that it becomes pointless to listen to two guys literally grapple force on force while the literally "grunt".

There is some truth to that and I agree. The irony of it is that the two guys gravitate to that grappling range and grunt it out because that is where fights go in reality. So the real issue is that the aikido school has not adequately developed skills in this range so I agree that it is pointless unless you have spent some time training them in this range.

I suspect that this wasn't an issue for 1930s and 1940s Japanese Aikido students that grew up in a culture of newaza. Aikido would be like someone taking a bunch of BJJers and introducing them to one of the IS gurus.

So, yes, I have a bias, and it is that the grappling range of fighting needs to be practiced and mastered to some degree.

I think there are several reasons for this:

1. It is realistic to expect fights to go to standing clinch and one or both opponents will end up on the ground. if it goes on for a while traditional standing aikido randori eventually ends up here for a reason!

2. I think it is the safest way we can practice randori that provides the needed stress and overload that allows and accounts for failure. That is opposing OODA loops, or you can call it ALIVENESS if you want.

3. It is much easier to communicate body skills, connection and correct movement from ne waza than from standing. For me, Aikido is like PhD level stuff when you try to establish connections.

So, if you accept these things, then there are really only so many positions you are going to end up in on the ground and your practice should center around these positions and you should learn how respond (ACT) appropriately from those positions.

You don't need to adopt the whole curriculum of BJJ or the newaza of Judo for ground self defense. Although both systems do have decent elements that can be used.

Standing and clinch work should also be worked. I would tend to turn toward Muay Thai and Krav Maga style things. Both those systems are very brutal, but what I think is good about them is that they do a good job of recognizing that action must be decisive, fast, and overwhelming, especially with Krav Maga. It is predicated on violence of action and recognizes the importance of the OODA cycle. Both systems also contain both kicks and punches as well.

Again, you don't have to adopt everything out of those systems, but if you train along the lines of them with the degree of intensity that they do, well I think there is merit there.

I am sure some out there reading this are cringing about this. The counter argument is that these methods do not inculcate good form, good habits, will reinforce the bad.

I think it depends on the knowledge of the instructors, how he or she uses it as a method, and with what else it is combined with in training.

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Old 12-14-2013, 05:04 PM   #98
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Yeah, I would like to have seen some serious resistance on uke's part.

The one thing I will say in defense of this kind of lesson approach, though, is that when you feel what it's like to give a really committed attack on someone with this kind of body conditioning, you NEVER want to do it again.
Maybe if he were attempting a really realistic, competently executed attack instead of the infamous 'really commited attack' .... who knows?

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Old 12-14-2013, 06:44 PM   #99
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe if he were attempting a really realistic, competently executed attack instead of the infamous 'really commited attack' .... who knows?
Well, here's where I'll ask you to indulge me by letting yourself assume, even if just for a moment, that I am capable of making a really realistic, competently executed attack.

When I first started training in an internal-based system, I had already been training in karate, boxing and TKD ("old" TKD that was really karate...) for over 20 years, and also had some training in a couple of "external" Chinese systems and a bit of arnis. I had made a very focused study of punching, both for power and tactical/strategic fighting use. I was... pretty good at it... to the point that when I showed up for co-ed sparring class at my karate school, the instructor would make me wear these ridiculous-looking 18-ounce gloves.

So. Here is what happened to me when I asked the AJJ/internals guy if I could throw "a few punches" and he said, "Go ahead"... and I launched a very aggressive punching attack:

1. I couldn't land a punch on him. He made what seemed to be tiny movements just absorbed all the power and force from my punches. I felt like I had... nuthin'. Nada. No habia ningun poder o fuerza.

2. When he chose to, instead of just absorbing my force, he returned it, along with his own force which he was generating internally. It felt like I was punching a stone wall wrapped rubber.

3. He added a little more power to #2, and my arm was "frozen" in place - I was not able to retract it - and I was bounced backward without being able to figure out how it happened.

In the subsequent years of training, I learned more variations on that theme. including what happens when you work certain angles that lock the alignment of the wrist, elbow, shoulder, and hips seemingly instantaneously with uke's punch. So, not only can it be excruciatingly painful; it also instantly captures uke's center (kuzushi), and puts him in an unaligned and compromised position that does not allow him to launch another attack, even if he still has the will to do so.

That's why I give credibility to the person who is uke in that video. It is possible, certainly, that he anticipates what is going to happen to him and so is reluctant to make a committed attack. That, however, is entirely understandable to me, having been there and done that. I see the familiar cues in both nage's and uke's bodies that tell me what they are doing, and what is driving the movement.

Demetrio, I have always been a skeptic, but it wasn't until I sought out and got my hands on this kind of training that I had enough information to determine that it's legitimate. If I hadn't, I would have had the same reaction, and made the same comments that you are making. I'm pretty sure I understand, then, where you're coming from and I'm glad you're not just buying this without more data. I hope you have the opportunity to get that exposure someday.
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Old 12-15-2013, 03:46 PM   #100
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Re: Aikijujutsu

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Well, here's where I'll ask you to indulge me by letting yourself assume, even if just for a moment, that I am capable of making a really realistic, competently executed attack.
I can accept you are capable ot that.

Quote:
So. Here is what happened to me when I asked the AJJ/internals guy if I could throw "a few punches" and he said, "Go ahead"... and I launched a very aggressive punching attack:
Did you charged at him throwing punching combos with the intention of sending his head to geostationary orbit? you know, like if he has just raped your daugter, killed your dog and set your house ablaze?

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1. I couldn't land a punch on him. He made what seemed to be tiny movements just absorbed all the power and force from my punches. I felt like I had... nuthin'. Nada. No habia ningun poder o fuerza.

2. When he chose to, instead of just absorbing my force, he returned it, along with his own force which he was generating internally. It felt like I was punching a stone wall wrapped rubber.

3. He added a little more power to #2, and my arm was "frozen" in place - I was not able to retract it - and I was bounced backward without being able to figure out how it happened.
This send us again to 'IP experts are so impervious to attacks that they do not need to know how to fight'

Quote:
In the subsequent years of training, I learned more variations on that theme. including what happens when you work certain angles that lock the alignment of the wrist, elbow, shoulder, and hips seemingly instantaneously with uke's punch. So, not only can it be excruciatingly painful; it also instantly captures uke's center (kuzushi), and puts him in an unaligned and compromised position that does not allow him to launch another attack, even if he still has the will to do so.

That's why I give credibility to the person who is uke in that video. It is possible, certainly, that he anticipates what is going to happen to him and so is reluctant to make a committed attack. That, however, is entirely understandable to me, having been there and done that. I see the familiar cues in both nage's and uke's bodies that tell me what they are doing, and what is driving the movement.

Demetrio, I have always been a skeptic, but it wasn't until I sought out and got my hands on this kind of training that I had enough information to determine that it's legitimate. If I hadn't, I would have had the same reaction, and made the same comments that you are making. I'm pretty sure I understand, then, where you're coming from and I'm glad you're not just buying this without more data. I hope you have the opportunity to get that exposure someday.
Maybe someday I could get the opportunity. But meanwhile, if the body allows, I'll stick with 'old man jits'.

A question, if you don't mind. What exactly can you do against a, lets say, run of the mill collegiate wrestler or judo blackbelt of your size in full randori?

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