Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-09-2013, 10:03 AM   #26
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 886
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Szczepan,
By "martial application" I'm referring to the context of martial disciplines as opposed to, say, dance. By now, I'd think that most if not all who are participating in this thread already know that in order to apply any kind of principle or concept in a "real fight," you have to train that way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 10:05 AM   #27
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 886
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Budd,
Lest you think I'm blowing past your post, I'm not -- I just don't have time at this moment to give it a thoughtful response. Will get back to you later. In the meantime, I'm happy, as always, to have been the perfect stooge for your setup.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 10:14 AM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Alec wrote:

Quote:
Being able to generate power does not mean you can deliver it.
Being technically skilled does not mean you are mentally ready.
being able to hit (or throw, whatever0 does not mean you know how to fight on after being severely traumatised.
Martial arts range from hobby through sport through art through self defence, and potentially combat.
The needs for the sportsman, hobbyist, artist, bouncer, policeman, soldier are all different and can't be trained with one approach.
Hey Alec, thanks for the comments. Agreed, however, I think though that there are some commonalities for martial sportsman, bouncers, policeman, soldiers,, and those needing self defense skills. ( I can't speak hobbyist, and artist as I don't know what the definition of those would necessarily mean)

I think you can distill some common training themes and strategies used by everyone and come up with a good solid core, foundational practice, that provides feedback (measurable) and is adaptive.

I do agree that there will be various focuses based on specific needs and applications. For example, your needs for self defense may be different that the specific needs to conduct room clearings if you are a SWAT team member. However, at the base of SD there are some common themes.

I think when we look at integrating IS training, we should understand what constitutes "good martial training". To me, there are IS or Aiki test to provide feedback while you are learning these skills, then there are some good basic martial skills. if you are considering IS or AIki as a part of Martial training, then at some point, you have to have training that integrates/test/provides feedback in martially appropriate ways.

I think that is the crux of where the problem lay with much of the discussion concerning IS training and integrating it into a combative/alive environement. That is, what is appropriate and what provides good feedback?

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 10:20 AM   #29
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Szczepan,
By "martial application" I'm referring to the context of martial disciplines as opposed to, say, dance. By now, I'd think that most if not all who are participating in this thread already know that in order to apply any kind of principle or concept in a "real fight," you have to train that way.
Cady, my frustration has been that I this is difficult to do. Marc Abrams and I played around with it some when I visited him last year, but it is hard to integrate into "alive" training or "train as you fight" environment.

I think the whole point of Aikido and Systema was to provide a structure that would provide for the dynamic conditions that would begin to approach that of what we might find in life, albeit with still enough control in order to encourage good responses.

This stuff is tough. I do agree with Szczepan though, we need to be careful about the words we choose, I had the same thoughts he did when I first looked at the videos. These days I think it is better to not even pretend you are doing anything martial while training or testing/feedback for IS as it allows too much room for confusion and criticism!

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 10:25 AM   #30
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 931
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Kev,

I'd also consider the context of when IS was deemed most viable for martial applications was in providing the best technology to allow an armored person holding a weapon to cut/stab/kill another potentially armed and armored person. Layer on top of that the tactics, formations, company strategies, etc. that would make for warfare at different points in history, it would get very easy to dismiss IS from a component perspective if you remain focused on the macro-soldiering perspective.

I think that's what happens nowadays and maybe not without valid reasoning. There's a time investment in making IS (beyond the muscley frame-based jin stuffs) into something really ingrained and viable and it might not be something that makes sense for a lot of people interested in getting good at fighting, or for police, or soldiers, or bouncers, or <insert hobby/tradecraft here> . . because there's 1) No guarantee that the people that are taught the methods will spend the time and thought developing them to any beneficial degree 2) There may be other, faster methods that duplicate at least 50% of the perceived benefits (maybe more with all the accelerators factored in).

But I also think that given that this type of skill requires an immense amount of individual drive and ownership - it's not going to fit easily into the trappings of any style, hobby, profession - and will remain something that individuals pursue and chase and ultimately choose how much they want to market its value as a tangible asset.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 10:30 AM   #31
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 964
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
But I also think that given that this type of skill requires an immense amount of individual drive and ownership - it's not going to fit easily into the trappings of any style, hobby, profession
Incorrect! It fits perfectly into any of a multitude of religious ascetic frameworks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 10:53 AM   #32
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 886
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Kevin,
I don't disagree; however, it also may not be accurate to limit one's concept of "martial" or "combat" to what people often envision -- fighting on a battlefield; being jumped by a band of big, armed thugs working for a drug lord; mercenary soldiers, crazed PCP maniacs with machetes, or whatever. There are varying degrees of assault, as well as varying degrees of competence by the attacker, and any use of a martial system to stop their attack is a form of combat, from the battlefield to a woman fighting off a rapist-murderer, or stopping a groping drunk. Women have successfully stopped the actions of groping drunks by using their learned skills, even though they did not train in an all-out manner. Should we give up training in our arts because we believe we can never use them successfully? If so, why even bother to consider martial arts training in the first place?

If we're going to consider "martial applications" as having only to do with all-out life-and-death training for (what we think will be) "real-life" conflicts, then maybe we could simply call this stuff "hopeful self-defense" skills rather than martial applications. But that probably would discourage a lot of people from ever training, and IMO it's better to have these skills than not. Then again, "self-defense" is probably more apt for the way most people in our societies will be applying them.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-09-2013 at 10:59 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 11:12 AM   #33
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 266
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

I think you can distill some common training themes and strategies used by everyone and come up with a good solid core, foundational practice, that provides feedback (measurable) and is adaptive.

I think when we look at integrating IS training, we should understand what constitutes "good martial training". To me, there are IS or Aiki test to provide feedback while you are learning these skills, then there are some good basic martial skills. if you are considering IS or AIki as a part of Martial training, then at some point, you have to have training that integrates/test/provides feedback in martially appropriate ways.

I think that is the crux of where the problem lay with much of the discussion concerning IS training and integrating it into a combative/alive environement. That is, what is appropriate and what provides good feedback?
I agree totally and am also researching and struggling with this question.
P.S. Sam Chin is here in March, we are only a hop over the border for you. Why not drop by? You'd be welcome.
Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 12:13 PM   #34
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
If we're going to consider "martial applications" as having only to do with all-out life-and-death training for (what we think will be) "real-life" conflicts, then maybe we could simply call this stuff "hopeful self-defense" skills rather than martial applications.
I would support that.

Quote:
But that probably would discourage a lot of people from ever training
Where is the problem?

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 12:16 PM   #35
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 931
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Incorrect! It fits perfectly into any of a multitude of religious ascetic frameworks.
I think you mean it fits incorrectly and incompletely into any of a multitude of religious ascetic frameworks ...

Though since you bring it up, this type of training did use to connote "The Superior Man" precisely because it did require a degree of intellect, physical prowess, artistry and could be applied to martial technique, calligraphy, music, dance, etc. while also providing a degree of benefits in terms of a kind of strength that didn't fade as rapidly as gross motor muscle was thought to. I'll be interested if science ever really digs into the fascia, connective tissue phenomena as elastic strengtheners of whole body power and the degree it enables what kind of sports/athletic activity.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 12:33 PM   #36
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Kev,

I'd also consider the context of when IS was deemed most viable for martial applications was in providing the best technology to allow an armored person holding a weapon to cut/stab/kill another potentially armed and armored person. Layer on top of that the tactics, formations, company strategies, etc. that would make for warfare at different points in history, it would get very easy to dismiss IS from a component perspective if you remain focused on the macro-soldiering perspective.

I think that's what happens nowadays and maybe not without valid reasoning. There's a time investment in making IS (beyond the muscley frame-based jin stuffs) into something really ingrained and viable and it might not be something that makes sense for a lot of people interested in getting good at fighting, or for police, or soldiers, or bouncers, or <insert hobby/tradecraft here> . . because there's 1) No guarantee that the people that are taught the methods will spend the time and thought developing them to any beneficial degree 2) There may be other, faster methods that duplicate at least 50% of the perceived benefits (maybe more with all the accelerators factored in).

But I also think that given that this type of skill requires an immense amount of individual drive and ownership - it's not going to fit easily into the trappings of any style, hobby, profession - and will remain something that individuals pursue and chase and ultimately choose how much they want to market its value as a tangible asset.
I agree. This is essentially what I was trying to say, but not as clear as you said it!

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 12:35 PM   #37
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
I agree totally and am also researching and struggling with this question.
P.S. Sam Chin is here in March, we are only a hop over the border for you. Why not drop by? You'd be welcome.
Alec
Thanks for the invite! I'll see if I can, but I am on the road alot with my job and March is looking busy!

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 04:07 PM   #38
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 886
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I agree. This is essentially what I was trying to say, but not as clear as you said it!
I also agree with that, and not for the first time. This is something that has been discussed multiple times here -- that this kind of developmental body training is not immediately and easily usable, and that there are a number of more efficacious and effective ways of accomplishing satisfactory results for sport application, LEO work, etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 07:54 PM   #39
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 886
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I agree I should have chose different term. With this video I only wanted to illustrate the big difference in the way how attack is provided. In the videos Cady provided we can see ridiculously sloppy attacks where attacker behave as a well cooked noodle. Quite a nonsense from martial point of view.
The term 'martial application' should not be used for this kind of 'training'.
Yeah, maybe I should have said something like, "here's a guy using aiki and internals, using some jujutsu from an aikijujutsu system as the vehicle. The real-life applications are martial, but here the teacher is just giving a lesson to a new student so he'll get an overview of the system."

And, again...

1. These clips are of a lesson for a first-day, brand-new student. Everything is being done in slow motion, only to demonstrate and overview.
2. I called them "martial applications" because the manner in which aiki and technique are being applied is martial in nature, meaning it's not being used as dance steps, or as qigong exercises for health.
3. What interests me about these clips is not the jujutsu, some of which is pretty convoluted and impractical, is the aiki and internal power the teacher is using. In fact, a lot of stuff in the various aikijujutsu curriculums are... pretty convoluted and impractical, perhaps because the practitioners were slavishly imitating the stuff they saw Takeda Sokaku do. Takeda could likely pull off some pretty implausible stuff because he had aiki. People maybe mistook the techniques for the aiki, and thought that the crazy setups, locks, pins, etc. were what they should be doing.
4. I really don't have a problem with what the guy in the clips is doing, because I have felt that kind of aiki and power and know what the payback on even a "cooked noodle" attack feels like and does to your body. I frankly would not want to launch a full-force attack on someone who can use your punches' force against you instantaneously on contact.
5. I don't expect you to buy any of this, and that's okay too. Maybe someday you'll bite the bullet and finally go experience one of the legitimate aiki/internal arts people yourself, and then will be able to opine with some empirical data to back up your opinion in that area.

If he were meeting a full-bore attack from a competent fighter, the impact of an untrained body meeting an "aiki body"

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-09-2013 at 07:56 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 01:48 AM   #40
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Kevin,
I don't disagree; however, it also may not be accurate to limit one's concept of "martial" or "combat" to what people often envision -- fighting on a battlefield; being jumped by a band of big, armed thugs working for a drug lord; mercenary soldiers, crazed PCP maniacs with machetes, or whatever. There are varying degrees of assault, as well as varying degrees of competence by the attacker, and any use of a martial system to stop their attack is a form of combat, from the battlefield to a woman fighting off a rapist-murderer, or stopping a groping drunk. Women have successfully stopped the actions of groping drunks by using their learned skills, even though they did not train in an all-out manner. Should we give up training in our arts because we believe we can never use them successfully? If so, why even bother to consider martial arts training in the first place?

If we're going to consider "martial applications" as having only to do with all-out life-and-death training for (what we think will be) "real-life" conflicts, then maybe we could simply call this stuff "hopeful self-defense" skills rather than martial applications. But that probably would discourage a lot of people from ever training, and IMO it's better to have these skills than not. Then again, "self-defense" is probably more apt for the way most people in our societies will be applying them.
Actually I think the way many martial arts are trained that it is "hopeful self-defense skills". Why? because the test/feedback mechanisms that are implemented are not adequate.

Agree there is a spectrum of violence. A grope by a drunk or an unwelcomed advance that does not stop I'd say is at one end and full out kinetic combat is at the other end.

I think though, that martial systems need to be "reasonable" in the approach to training.

On one end, a system that places a paradigm that we can talk our way out of most situations, that assumes a certain degree of rationalism and centers around avoiding conflict, or blending with conflict to be a perversion and is not "reasonable" As well as systems that are predicated on a high degree of personal skill or structure that assume that certain conditions are set and can be implemented or control. That is, systems that do not reasonably account for failure. On this end of the spectrum I don't think the model adequately accounts for the nature of conflict and/or violence.

On the other end, systems that are all about violence and attacking with overwhelming force. Predicated on "pre-emtive" striking, Always being ready, Always being on are correct either. We see this a lot in the "gun culture" self defense models. This too is a perversion of reasonableness. These systems too assume a certain degree of control and do not reasonably account for failure.

On both ends of the spectrum, we have a common theme. The lack of accounting for failure. Both extremes are predicated on control, and require that certain elements of control are present in the situation for success to happen.

So, when I look at martial models of success, I am looking for particular feedback dynamics to be present that address failure.

My interest in IS and "frame training" is that it can be useful in addressing failure. I think this is the real advantage in training IS. that is, how to I buy back time and space lost? How do I take failure and turn it into success.

For the most part I don't see this being done a whole lot in training.

So dealing with semi docile grouping drunks on a train. I think we can master that in a few quick classes on assertiveness and standing your ground. However, once it goes beyond that and we are in a physical point of failure...well that requires a great deal more training, and this is what Martial training should encompass with an emphasis on sound physical responses at the point of failure.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 02:00 AM   #41
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I also agree with that, and not for the first time. This is something that has been discussed multiple times here -- that this kind of developmental body training is not immediately and easily usable, and that there are a number of more efficacious and effective ways of accomplishing satisfactory results for sport application, LEO work, etc.
I think there are elements of IS training that ARE easily usable and can be incorporated rather quickly. I think the issue is that we have is inadequate methodology for training and develop risk models/criteria that prioritize things for us.

I think the problem we have is a psychology of asceticism in those that tend to be attracted to IS training. I think the problem is that we say we cannot move on until we've mastered the whole body of knowledge. I think the problem is a lack of understanding of endstate and why we are training what we are training.

I think once you have a clear and concise understanding of endstate and when you develop models that provide appropriate feedback that things tend to fall in place and your training can be adaptive.

I do think there is a lack of understanding of IS skills and how to develop them and a lack of understanding/knowledge of modalities to train them. It sounds like a lot of folks over the past few years are now getting an understanding of these things which is a good thing!

Hopefully we will begin to see the development of an integrative approach into martial training in the near future.

I think the good news is that IS skills enhance training so much that we can integrate things learned fairly quickly with very positive results and you begin to find out that you really don't need to go very far to gain advantages martially. That may also be a bad thing as it might stifle training from those that get what they need and say "thanks, that is just enough to give me an advantage" and drive on.

I'd like to point out that I don't have an issue with asceticism. There is a need for expertise. I think what is lacking in our religious world today is monasticism. There are many examples out there that demonstrate the need for people to embed knowledge in subject matter expertise.

There is also a need for a balanced approach that allows for lay folk to integrate stuff into there daily lives.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 06:59 AM   #42
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 266
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

"On both ends of the spectrum, we have a common theme. The lack of accounting for failure. Both extremes are predicated on control, and require that certain elements of control are present in the situation for success to happen."
Is not the essence of combat or any conflict the loss of control? Is not most martial training a demonstration of an unrealistic control over the attack, terrain, timing etc. especially gendai arts with one perfect end technique or one perfect strike that ends it all. Datu Kelly Worden of NSI, a formidable
fighter, as well as an excellent martial artist, (rarely found in the same person) always talks about flow drills from the standpoint that 7 out of 10 techniques will fail, miss, be ineffective in one way or another, and it is the ability to move on without losing power or structure that becomes a determining factor. Clearly a well developed internal power/skill/frame is an asset since the body/mind integration will be based upon instant change, being as close to neutral as possible with yin/yang manifestations.
This is as much a mental skill as a physical one. "Everyone has a plan till they get hit in the face". Better to have no plan than to freeze when the plan fails, better still to have a physical/mental skill set that allows immediate response.
Getting to that point is the problem.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 07:57 AM   #43
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 931
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Here's where I am going to take some issue regarding the "need" for IS to be simplified and made piecemeal for folks to pick and choose what parts they will incorporate. (Kevin - you may not be saying that, but it seems to be a theme that keeps coming up) In some cases, certain facets of teaching can be adapted and optimized as has been shown in the evolution of sport martial arts. Other things, though, at least in the transmission maturity models that are available, do require a bit of the seeker adapting themselves to the training.

On one hand, I agree that from a utilitarian perspective, pursuing whole-banana 6 harmony martial art may not make sense for the person seeking fastest speed to market usable skills matrix - especially the seeker that's going to choose something of a grab-bag approach to training. There's too much investment of time regarding training correctly in something of a "faith-based" (god, I hate that approach) approach. The problem in that model is that you are utterly at the mercy of the person showing you the goods in that 1) they have the goods 2) are showing you the path to get the goods 3) you have the requisite talent, curiosity and dedication to acquire the goods through your own efforts after exposure to 1&2. (a bit of a damper in the notion that "everyone can do it", sorry)

That model is a hard sell because we are enough of a skeptical breed now with limited attention spans that have been told over and over that we are entitled to anything we want if we show up. The notion that no matter how hard you try you might fail is not something very marketable in martial arts land. The idea that you are completely responsible for your own progress once you've been shown some basic things - is also a hard sell for those that want to role-play, belong to a club, get constant reinforcement and attention rather than push themselves to do the work.

I liked the basic jin/aiki videos that Cady listed because I looked at them in context. It's showing how different applications of strength can create different effects when two people are physically connected. If you can't see how it's a different kind of strength, but are still curious, then you ought to go feel it. If you write it off as not useful, then fine, go about your way of training and good luck to you. Either way, get the information and process it, rather than assuming you have all the information already. Sheesh...
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 11:50 AM   #44
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 779
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

I agree with Sz but I also really like the style of training on the original post. It is not training for fighting, it is training to develop certain skills to develop your ability to defend (and attack). I am sure the aggressor himself in Sz's vid would benefit greatly from this kind of training.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 12:16 PM   #45
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 886
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Budd and Kevin,
The interesting thing about the traditional aikijujutsu (i.e. Daito-ryu) training curriculum, at least as I'm familiar with it, is that students learn in stages how to use technique (in this case, jujutsu), how to apply "aiki" to those techniques (aikijujutsu), and then to develop a fuller and more "complete" internal body method through specific training in IP and aiki methodology (aiki-no-jutsu).

The systems are taught in that order, and when students begin training in the aikjujutsu "stage," they are learning discrete aspects of internal method -- not the whole "internal enchilada." They learn to create and apply aiki-age and aiki-sage, and learn a basic aspect of generating power through winding/wrapping.

Whether this approach was meant to protect the "deeper secrets" for the long-term, loyal students (for example), or to introduce a sophisticated concept in easy bite-sized bits, or other reason, who can say. But a resulting benefit of it is that practitioners get incremental pieces of the "internal" puzzle in a way that can be employed and applied in a "practical" way sooner than if they were to concentrate on just the internal conditioning from the get-go.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-10-2013 at 12:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 12:49 PM   #46
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 931
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Hi Cady,

I've always appreciated that method of DRAJJ from an academic perspective as it seems like a reasonable model to balance some application with deeper skills. I struggle with that in my own practice when folks ask me to show them things - in terms of I make a distinction when I'm working on IS principles and how they work, how my chosen martial style of expression works as a container for IS and then how to just move through the shapes (and basic application) of my martial style of expression. From what I hear, different DR groups have their own QC issues as much as any of the aikido groups do (which the Taiji groups are certainly no strangers to as well - heck pretty much any martial art is going to run into that if it gets big enough).

Thing is, the more I get exposed to IS, the more I wonder at the value of just grabbing what you can and adding it to your already fine practice (can maybe get some muscle jin that will add X percent to your game) or do you restart what you're doing from 0 and rewire how your body fundamentally moves (presuming you have access to a source that can give you the complete progression so you don't abandon something you were enjoying to chase a dead end).

Anyways, everyone gots to make their own choices with the information they have available.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 02:21 PM   #47
Bernd Lehnen
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 113
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Budd and Kevin,
The interesting thing about the traditional aikijujutsu (i.e. Daito-ryu) training curriculum, at least as I'm familiar with it, is that students learn in stages how to use technique (in this case, jujutsu), how to apply "aiki" to those techniques (aikijujutsu), and then to develop a fuller and more "complete" internal body method through specific training in IP and aiki methodology (aiki-no-jutsu).

The systems are taught in that order, and when students begin training in the aikjujutsu "stage," they are learning discrete aspects of internal method -- not the whole "internal enchilada." They learn to create and apply aiki-age and aiki-sage, and learn a basic aspect of generating power through winding/wrapping.

Whether this approach was meant to protect the "deeper secrets" for the long-term, loyal students (for example), or to introduce a sophisticated concept in easy bite-sized bits, or other reason, who can say. But a resulting benefit of it is that practitioners get incremental pieces of the "internal" puzzle in a way that can be employed and applied in a "practical" way sooner than if they were to concentrate on just the internal conditioning from the get-go.
Quote:
This is why the body work has to come at the beginning of a person's training, to create a foundation that will become the person's "true nature." Whatever he has wired in, is what he will fight with under duress. It is very difficult to un-do old training and replace it with another completely different method. And, it takes a very special ability to deconstruct an old foundation and build a new one; you have to very open and willing to break yourself down to build yourself back up differently.
I suspect that those people you mention, began their training with a more conventional "external" method, and came to internal training later in their careers, adding it to their arsenal rather than reconstructing themselves with it.
Looks as if DR people might be doomed to have a very long way to go.

Best ,
Bernd

Last edited by Bernd Lehnen : 12-10-2013 at 02:31 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 04:56 PM   #48
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Budd wrote:

Quote:
Here's where I am going to take some issue regarding the "need" for IS to be simplified and made piecemeal for folks to pick and choose what parts they will incorporate.
I'm simply saying that if you have the feedback mechanisms and measures correct and the methodology supports it, then you can develop appropriate responses.

These days I believe that a balanced approach that is not extreme in any one area is best. Again, provided that the correct feedback mechanisms and methods are in place.

I don't see it so much as picking and choosing if you stay true to our feedback mechanisms and methods. That is, you don't change them or shift them.

Once you have that, I think, on a personal basis, you can pick and choose to a degree. You can become adaptive as things don't work for you and other things do. Of course, you have to give it time in some cases. Somethings you may set aside until you have time, other things you may discard all together.

It may be simply that our goals are different. I have constructed feedback mechanisms and have adopted methodologies that I have found to support them. My feedback mechanisms and measures require that a certain level of martial proficiency is demonstrable and replicable under the proper measures and conditions. If a particular methodology can't deliver that, then I am apt to sit it aside.

Now it may be that I am simply dense and can't understand it. I've had those Aha! moments later for sure.

I'm not saying IS training needs to be simplified in one sense. Who I am to say that. But I am saying that I think that you can adapt certain things you find effective and responsive.

Again, I think it depends on your strategy, paradigms, and goals. My architecture and situation dictates that I spend time doing certain things, while prioritizing other things at a lower priority for any number of reasons.

It has nothing really to do with the validity of training. It could be due to different skill levels, access to the right people, or simply lack of interest. However, the driving force behind it all should be the criteria you define for yourself at this point in our martial careers.

I think all of us here are way past "do it because Sensei told you to."

Budd, I know you are! I think it boils down to simply differences in approaches. Too much time is wasted saying I'm right and your wrong. (Not saying this is what you are saying Budd!).

What is great I think is that we can get together, train and take away something productive. We can do this cause we both have established frameworks that allow us to make decisions.

This is all I a really saying. basically having an open source type architecture. Does this make sense?

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 05:01 PM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Budd wrote:

Quote:
Thing is, the more I get exposed to IS, the more I wonder at the value of just grabbing what you can and adding it to your already fine practice (can maybe get some muscle jin that will add X percent to your game) or do you restart what you're doing from 0 and rewire how your body fundamentally moves (presuming you have access to a source that can give you the complete progression so you don't abandon something you were enjoying to chase a dead end).
Heck I don't know...I think it is a little of everything. sometimes you have to let go of things, rewire, and start over, sometimes you can add stuff. I don't think you can ever really abandon something as it is apart of you....set it aside...sure. again, I think it is about the midpoint or balance.

What I think is most dangerous is taking a fundamentalist or zealot approach that says you blindly abandon your old ways and accept the new without critical thought or measurements. I think fundamentalist thinking is a bad thing and very little good can come out of it, IMO and experiences.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 05:35 PM   #50
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 886
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikijujutsu

Bernd,
Probably it is a long road for them, for a number of reasons.
I suspect there is a happy medium for instilling "internal wiring" even as one is learning a traditionally external technique set. A lot of guys go into these disciplines wanting something they can fight with as quickly as possible.

Coming is as a neophyte, people don't know what they don't know about the advantages of internal power over the more conventional athleticism, so there isn't always any incentive to desire internal training to be the focus at the beginning. Well, at least until they feel what it's like to cross hands with someone with high-level internal skills, who can apply them martially (or... as self-defense ).
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza John Driscoll Columns 28 08-04-2013 05:01 PM
Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu, Aikijujutsu classes relocated-Boston Samurai Arts Walter Wong Events Listings: Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 0 08-02-2007 05:08 AM
Aikijujutsu kicks butt Roy General 11 06-16-2005 11:15 AM
Yanagi Ryu Aikijujutsu ronin_10562 Seminars 0 06-27-2002 11:57 AM
Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Martin72 Training 1 06-27-2002 10:24 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:21 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate