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Old 01-22-2014, 11:38 AM   #26
Richard Vader
Richard Vader's Avatar
Dojo: Budo Ryu Sittard
Location: Limburg
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 11
Re: The uke/nage paradigm

Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Maybe your "waza didn't improve by it" but I bet in giving up your pre-thinking about what you wanted to work on in class and focusing on the actual human being you were partnered with your overall Aikido improved. Because being present in the reality of the moment, not in our hopes or wishes for reality, is what a martial art offers us.
And I'm not being flippant in saying this. I really believe sometimes that IS the lesson when class doesn't go the way we expect.
Lol i try to be less sarcastic next time. English still is just a third language to me! So it doesn't serves me all that well during sarcastic remarks! Because putting away my ego isn't a little lesson imho. If it is just a little thing to you, i am very happy for you. Because i never met a person before who considers putting aside ego a little lesson. Learn a lot yesterday. Only my body would have loved to roll a bit more yesterday. Will have to pick that up in the gym if i find some time.
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:23 PM   #27
Janet Rosen
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Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,340
Re: The uke/nage paradigm

I never said it was a little thing or an easy thing. I said sometimes it is the thing.

Janet Rosen
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:44 AM   #28
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Re: The uke/nage paradigm

I've recently changed dojos, and the uke/nage paradigm is **very** different at my new dojo as compared to the old dojo. At the new place, uke attacks and hangs on with continued pressure placed on nage throughout the technique, even to the extent of 'giving my partner my weight,' as explained by one teacher (my apologies if I'm explaining it wrong, folks, I'm new there). That is regarded as a 'sincere' attack.

In contrast, at the old dojo, uke got 'one mistake,' and after that uke got hit if he or she resisted. Ukemi was supposed to be flowing to the point of weightlessness, and any time nage felt resistance, uke could get clobbered (to the point, once or twice in a decade of training, of blood on the mat when uke was high-ranking and pushing the envelope, and fairly frequently to mild smacks on the face if uke just wasn't paying enough attention). Lots of atemi. Uke hung on not so much to continue the attack, but to tie up one (or more) of nage's arms and to signal to nage that he or she didn't 'need' to place atemi because uke was paying attention. There was also the idea that, at the beginning of the technique, uke was the person who locked themselves into an attack with a preconceived notion of what was going to happen, and nage was nage because he or she remained open to the movement that came from the interaction, and could thus respond faster to changes by uke. Attempts by nage to 'do the technique to uke' was a role-reversal that allowed uke, with good ukemi, to respond by flowing into the role of nage and taking over the technique.

It's a frustrating, but fascinating, difference in perspective. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to sit down with any of the sempai or sensei at the new dojo and talk about their underlying ukemi philosophy yet.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:28 AM   #29
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
Re: The uke/nage paradigm

Excuse me, but your description of ukemi at your old dojo is such a mix of things that make sense to me and things that don't that I wonder if you're describing it right.

In my view, if uke can get clobbered by nage he pretty much should be. The whole point of ukemi is to keep yourself safe even when nage's in control. Uke doesn't resist not because being flowing and weightless is the goal, but because nage can use uke's resistance against him. And "not resisting" doesn't mean being a noodle either, because then nage can take advantage of that and clobber you just the same. Even when a technique puts nage in a position where a strike is possible, the solution is usually flexible and fast ukemi to get out of the way.

(A while back, my sensei gave me homework because he said I was too stiff and unresponsive: grab nage's wrists in ryote-tori and let nage punch my head. My job was not to fight the punch but to flow with it into a fall so that no matter how fast it came in, it didn't hit me.)

I wonder also about the new dojo's ukemi. A committed attack is fine, but then you turn into a dead weight? Regardless of whether you're open or not?

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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