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Old 11-25-2013, 10:22 PM   #26
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Peter,
Surely if someone is doing a waza incorrectly the person will be embodying the wrong method of doing the waza? This in time would become habit forming and in my mind in a negative way.The guy having conditioned himself to doing incorrect waza then has to re programme himself over again.
Not only that surely you as the visiting instructor at a seminar have a duty to see /check that the students are doing what you show them rather than what they believe your demonstrating?What would be the point of inviting you to teach them if they carry on doing what they normally do?Seems a waste of valuable time money and human resources ie you.Hope you are well> Cheers, Joe.
Hello Joe,

I practised once with two Japanese shihans (both 8th dan) on two different occasions for about one hour each time and there was hardly any verbal exchange at all. On many occasions the waza did not work, but I had to figure out for myself what was wrong. Both work-outs took place some years ago and I still remember them in some detail -- and incorporate some finer details in my own training.

Hope you are well.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 11-25-2013, 10:44 PM   #27
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hello Peter,
Recently I was asking myself similar questions...
Could you explain please why don't you make corrections right away to avoid creation wrong automatism and also to avoid creation wrong waza example to other dojo members?
Hello Szczepan,

Well, there is a context that I did not explain in detail: to have done so would have caused too much thread drift. The students are my own students, in the sense that they began their aikido in the dojo and have not trained anywhere else. However, I share the teaching with two colleagues, both of whom have had a different training history to mine. I know their teachers in the Aikikai Hombu and so I know exactly how they like to train. So there is a real sense in which we practice the waza correctly, but differently. Last Sunday I taught the class, but my two colleagues were also training. The pace was quite fast and I gave very little verbal explanation. The were twelve students present and every student practiced with everyone else, with all the instructors joining in. So each student had the challenge of coming as close as possible to the model shown, by me as instructor and by the other two instructors as partners, at any one time. So it would be pointless to stop the class and give a general explanation, since there was a wide level of approximation to the model. I should add that after showing a waza, I split the class occasionally and have the beginners practice together, slowly, and have the yudansha practice the waza at their level. The mistakes in this case are more subtle.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:15 PM   #28
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I personally have a lot of difficulties to change the automatic movements, I need minimum 1 some times 2 hours of practice to do a switch.
Also, if an instructor is from different style, often, most what he is doing has not much sens to me, because I don't understand the assumptions of his teaching system. This is very frustrating and not helping to easy absorb his teaching. On the other hand he has no time to explain it. So I'm not sure is it a good idea to follow such seminars...however it has as a consequence to close myself in my own style only...not good....
Hello Szczepan, again,

I do not give many seminars, partly because as I get older, I have more reluctance to travel long distances by air. However, I have taught in Europe for many years and know most of the yudansha who attend, but they see me only twice a year. I do not like Youtube or Facebook, and discourage students from relying on this medium at the expense of hands-on training. Some of the yudansha know me well enough to tell me. 'Peter, I did not see what you were doing just then...' It is usually a matter of smaller things that are harder to notice: how the hips are aligned, the position of the feet at any one point, how the hands move, where the elbows are. Yudansha should have an eye for such details, but beginners need more body education before they are in a position to recognize these details. I am fortunate to have / have had teachers like Yanaguchi, Arikawa, Tada, as well as my own resident teacher here, but it means I have had to be at least bilingual when it comes to communication by waza.

Best,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:53 PM   #29
NagaBaba
 
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Hi Peter,
Thanks for explanations! I understand that practice with Japanese shihans is quite different that with occidental students. I'm also aware about different expectations to beginners and to more advanced students. I'm not sure Japanese teaching model provides good results in the West. I.e. S.Sugano sensei after many years of such teaching in Belgium switched to the teaching with a lot of explanations, not only technical but also spiritual(in Japanese sens), because he didn't see expected progress.

Going back to the topic - may be lack of explanations and too much freedom given to the students creates a greater opportunity to develop such pathological situation as is described in the beginning of the topic, where 1 kyu student doesn't have correct basics, and his advices are not welcomed by lower ranking students?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 11-30-2013, 07:22 AM   #30
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

I do wonder what the teacher of this class is doing while all these corrections are being made. I encourage students to stop talking and train. Nothing is gained by chatter...often it is way to avoid exercise.

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Old 11-30-2013, 11:24 AM   #31
Dalaran1991
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

I wouldn't blame my own Sensei. Like I said she often comes and make corrections herself. And on many occasions she tells us straight up that it's better to shut up and train, and let the body corrects itself. But it's a large dojo full of young people, and even then some people seriously can't shut up when they see an opportunity to demonstrate their superiority. I see that in seminars too and not just my dojo.
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:36 PM   #32
Susan Dalton
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

I am enjoying this discussion. Naga Baba, you raise an excellent point. Sometimes we are trying to do what is demonstrated, but something close and not quite it is in our body memory, and that's what we're doing. I remember a student in our dojo had come from the Yoshinkan tradition. Someone thought he was being disrespectful by not doing exactly what was being taught. But when I visit a different style, I have the same problem. I have to keep trying, which is why I like practicing sometimes with different styles. Doing so reminds me that aikido is about perseverance and overcoming my own frustration, even more than doing a perfect technique.
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Old 12-01-2013, 09:18 PM   #33
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Omg lol.... I can relate to partner issue. I just started not even 6 ryu yet, but we have a noodle arms, where the kid just flops around and you don't even know if ur performing right. Then there is this guy every time I partner up with him he litterely beats me and I always have to start the technique with pleading that he does not actually punch me (dude this is not boxing!)..... Then we have a chatter box, he starts of every exercise with I am so tired I don't even care to do this so there (but what about me I care! I want to do this!)... Oh almost forgot there is a girl who has been there for 1 year and still does not know what proper hanmi is (or maybe she's pretending not to know, hmmm), and of course the guy who tells me to litterely punch him and abuse him in every possible way.... Lol

We do have many wonderful classmates though and sensei is always there to correct me and help me

PS - I think I must be known as the woman that can't roll ( but I do it anyway! I land on my shoulders, get up with a smile, get the "oksana make a circle" instruction from sencei, and keep going!)

Ok, back to the icepak on my shoulders...
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Old 12-10-2013, 07:54 PM   #34
Sojourner
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Long Trinh,

I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful here my friend, but how sure are you that she is not looking for a date? Often if someone feels attraction to someone else they will seek to engage them in conversation even if its negative simply to engage with that person. It can be a common thread in the begining of relationships.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:11 PM   #35
hughrbeyer
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

OMG. Please, someone tell me this is a troll.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:17 AM   #36
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
OMG. Please, someone tell me this is a troll.
This thread sure is bringing 'em out.

(edit: forum n00b)
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Old 12-11-2013, 04:23 PM   #37
sakumeikan
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
This thread sure is bringing 'em out.

(edit: forum n00b)
Dear Mary,
If I read any more of this blog I think I will get Dog the Bounty Hunter to bring them in !! Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to one and all,

Cheers, Joe.
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Old 12-13-2013, 08:12 PM   #38
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I give seminars occasionally and am constantly surprised at the number of people, including 4th dan and above, who do not practice the waza in the way I have shown. Do they do this because they cannot perceive what I am doing, since their mental map of the waza does not allow for another way of doing it, or because they have already made a mental judgment that their way is better?
I remember a course with Chiba Sensei, about 1990 or so in Wales, in the UK. He showed a technique (it was a shiho-nage variant) and after awhile stopped everyone. He then asked a few seniors to demonstrate it and they all did something different. He went nuts and screamed at them. Then he showed the technique again and deja vu. I really enjoyed seeing senior teachers get a rollocking but I do not know why they could not copy what he was doing. He even said, while ridiculing them, that the white belts were trying to do what he had shown, and he had a pair demo it. He was mad as hell. Bizarre.

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Old 12-24-2013, 07:56 PM   #39
Lorien Lowe
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

If she's busy 'instructing' someone else, she's neglecting her own training.
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:19 PM   #40
jadee
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Is it just me, am I too old fashioned, or is this not a breach of etiquette? When I started training (mid 90s - now recently back after 15 years of foolishly "focusing on career"...pbblt) it was made very clear that there is no place for debate on the mat, that each person's responsibility was to perform the waza as demonstrated as honestly as they were able... if someone disagrees with what the instructor is showing so strongly that they refuse to even try it, what are they doing in that instructor's class?

I've noticed the problem at seminars, too. Isn't the whole point of attending a seminar to get a glimpse at how someone else, highly regarded (why else would they be attracting people to a seminar?), performs? It seems as though there are a number of folks who look at a seminar as just a good excuse to get a concentrated block of mat time... given the number of high-level folks who are approaching the end of their teaching careers (at least to the extent of traveling to give seminars), what a lost opportunity...

In the spirit of "there is always something to learn", I usually try to respond to similar situations with my completely imperfect sense of etiquette, depending on duration of blab:

1. Short corrective comment: smile, bow, then continue training (hoping the silence rubs off)
2. Constantly breaking connection during technique to lecture: each time, work on driving the connection a little better such that uke cannot break connection to blab (assuming uke actually engendered a martial situation to start with, it is always something nage did or didn't do that allows the break - always something to work on).
3. Full-on soliloquy: re-establish ma-ai and practice projecting your intention as far out as you can, practice readiness (does not exclude also listening)...
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Old 02-04-2014, 04:19 AM   #41
Walter Martindale
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I remember a course with Chiba Sensei, about 1990 or so in Wales, in the UK. He showed a technique (it was a shiho-nage variant) and after awhile stopped everyone. He then asked a few seniors to demonstrate it and they all did something different. He went nuts and screamed at them. Then he showed the technique again and deja vu. I really enjoyed seeing senior teachers get a rollocking but I do not know why they could not copy what he was doing. He even said, while ridiculing them, that the white belts were trying to do what he had shown, and he had a pair demo it. He was mad as hell. Bizarre.
I saw the same from Kawahara sensei in more than one seminar in Canada. I used to watch very carefully to see what he was doing so I could at least attempt to do what he was doing, and remember on more than one occasion being "corrected" by others only to have the others rained upon from on high by Kawahara because the "corrections" were wrong..
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:23 AM   #42
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

To the op, you could get them banned. That's what they did to me!
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Old 02-13-2014, 02:51 AM   #43
Dalaran1991
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

After a few more incidents I'm starting to think people here got a point. There's something seriously wrong at our dojo.

I was training with a 6th kyu girl and had her locked in shihonage. She was really trying to get out of the lock and swung around to slap me. I put my other hand up to block her, but she swung back so hard she slammed into my hand and it turned into a huge slap. She broke down crying and her boyfriend came over to hit me.

A 5th kyu girl was working with a nidan girl. Every time the 5th kyu got the nidan in a shihonage the nidan just turned around in kaeshiwaza and strangled the 5th kyu in kubishime. 4 times in a row. It really frustrated and humiliated the 5th kyu.

I think that's masochistic. Like people said anyone can prevent an aikido technique if they know what to expect, much less a nidan against a 5th kyu. There's no training or teaching there. It's a power play.

And this nidan girl is also the Sensei's favorite. And she does nothing to prevent all this from happening.

An old friend of mine who used to be a regular in this dojo left because he found the ambiance too hypocritical and pervert. I didn't believe him at first when I was a noob, but now I'm starting to look for another dojo.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:55 AM   #44
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Out of curiosity, how old are these people you're talking about? Are these all children or adolescents, possibly with some to-be-expected childish/adolescent behaviors? I ask because you refer to them all as "girls".
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:02 AM   #45
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

I was going to ask the same question but then I said to myself "why bother"?

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Old 02-13-2014, 08:47 AM   #46
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I was going to ask the same question but then I said to myself "why bother"?
Either way, I think the answer might be illuminating/helpful. If OP is actually dealing with a pack of children or adolescents, that points to a different set of issues and solutions than if OP is dealing with adult female human beings.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:41 AM   #47
Janet Rosen
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

If things are as you describe, this is a dojo totally out of control, with no clear etiquette/behavioral expectations that provide the guideposts for safe, productive and respectful learning and training.

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:03 AM   #48
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

From past posts I think it is women...and in response to Janet's post I would love to hear the "rest of the story".

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Old 02-13-2014, 10:19 AM   #49
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

Duct tape and ....

Oh wait that's kids.

Yes there is always more to the story.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:45 AM   #50
Dalaran1991
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Re: How to deal with irritating partner?

The youngest of us is 18 and the vast majority are within 23-40. The people involved and myself, we are all grad students. I don't have time for a full detailed answer right now, and I'm not even sure if "the rest" is of any importance. But I'll just say that things like this are not uncommon in the dojo. It simply took me a while to see that something is really wrong here.
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