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Old 12-05-2013, 02:29 PM   #1
Peter Boylan
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What Kata Isn't

I've seen all sorts of discussions about kata, but they rarely display a good grasp of kata training. About all most people ever get right about kata is that they are pre-arranged training sequences. It just so happens that this describes the vast majority of Aikido training as well. In order to bring the discussion of kata up a notch or two, I wrote this.

http://budobum.blogspot.com/2013/12/what-kata-isnt.html

Peter Boylan
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:03 PM   #2
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Re: What Kata Isn't

I think this is your best blog, yet!
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:22 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Excellent!

Janet Rosen
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:27 AM   #4
Alec Corper
 
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Perhaps it would be more accurate, if we use traditional terminology, to distinguish between solo kata and partner kata which is more correctly prearranged kumite. I have posted previously that the three traditional components of Budo are kihon (basic movements/underlying principles embedded in the movements), kata (prearranged forms linking these movements together in transitional ways, essential for combat which occurs within transitions), and kumite (partner work ranging from structured to freestyle).
The difficulty for aikido is that people begin all three almost simultaneously. In Tai Chi, for example, solo work is often done for years whilst slowly learning the mnemonic forms which allow the practise of correct body linkage. Later push hands is introduced which differs from uke/tori relationship since the roles are continuously shifting. Still later some may wish to test their skills further in a more freestyle kumite (for example sanda).
All waza are kihon, kata, and kumite rolled into one. Three problems multiplied by two, driven exponentially by the variances of training models and goals existing in each persons mind.
Whew, its a wonder that people learn at all.I have been teaching for quite some years and do not feel in any way satisfied that I have solved this problem. then again many Japanese instructors solve it very easily by simply ignoring it.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 12-06-2013, 05:43 AM   #5
Cliff Judge
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Perhaps it would be more accurate, if we use traditional terminology, to distinguish between solo kata and partner kata which is more correctly prearranged kumite. I have posted previously that the three traditional components of Budo are kihon (basic movements/underlying principles embedded in the movements), kata (prearranged forms linking these movements together in transitional ways, essential for combat which occurs within transitions), and kumite (partner work ranging from structured to freestyle).
The difficulty for aikido is that people begin all three almost simultaneously. In Tai Chi, for example, solo work is often done for years whilst slowly learning the mnemonic forms which allow the practise of correct body linkage. Later push hands is introduced which differs from uke/tori relationship since the roles are continuously shifting. Still later some may wish to test their skills further in a more freestyle kumite (for example sanda).
All waza are kihon, kata, and kumite rolled into one. Three problems multiplied by two, driven exponentially by the variances of training models and goals existing in each persons mind.
Whew, its a wonder that people learn at all.I have been teaching for quite some years and do not feel in any way satisfied that I have solved this problem. then again many Japanese instructors solve it very easily by simply ignoring it.
What tradition are you referring to here that has this model? Peter is coming at it from a traditional Japanese model. Koryu training is almost all paired kata training, with the exception of iai, suburi, and some solo drills in a few of the jujutsu systems. Kumite is a karatedo practice so it comes out of the modern era.

Kata contain waza, there is never a variance of training methods in koryu, and your instructor and seniors enforce proper form so you leave your mind out of it for the most part. You are right, it is a wonder Tai Chi students learn anything at all!
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:46 AM   #6
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Re: What Kata Isn't

You are correct Peter. I am not referring to koryu only. Peter included judo in his article and I responded to both and was not using the word traditional in the koryu sense. my apologies if I caused confusion.
Also I was not referring to Tai Chi when I spoke about learning difficulties ;-)

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Old 12-06-2013, 07:58 AM   #7
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Although these are solo Iaido forms, I like how they illustrate the way senior practitioners can interpret a rigid form to reflect their individual understanding of the movement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLUzztpsjYU
In this kata sequence of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo, Matsamura Sensei (in white) is the senior, and therefore the uke, but he is clearly in charge of the rhythm and intensity of the movements. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv8icGROwJE
In the second set, Matsamura Sensei switches roles but, being Matsamura, is still in charge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iboeusba7BE

Jim Baker
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:57 AM   #8
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
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You are correct Peter. I am not referring to koryu only. Peter included judo in his article and I responded to both and was not using the word traditional in the koryu sense. my apologies if I caused confusion.
Also I was not referring to Tai Chi when I spoke about learning difficulties ;-)
Ah, okay. You used the term traditional to mean the newer traditions than those of koryu bujutsu which threw me off a little. I am also not sure I am on the same page as you with the definitions of some other words, such as kihon, waza,, and maybe we're not agreed on kumite and kata as well.

I think:

waza are techniques, in particular applications;
kihon are the basic "things" of a system, including posture, mindset, and essential movement
kumite is a rules-bound free sparring match
kata are prearranged, generally paired, sequences of techniques

So it sounds to me like you are saying that the techniques contain elements of basics, sparring, and prearranged sequences of techniques. (And remember that techniques contain elements of basics, sparring, and prearranged sequences of techniques. (And..))

This is a problem because it means that there are three things that every technique contains, and if you add to that the fact that there are different training methodologies, and each student has a different thing going on in their head, it is a wonder anybody learns anything.

First of all, you can easily get rid of the last two problems. Stick to one training methodology, and pick one that limits the student's choices during training, one that does not require or allow them to engage in analytical thinking during training. This is how koryu work. Aikido may have a problem with this, there are certainly many Aikidoka who have problems with this on an individual level, myself included.

And in my opinion, kata include kihon and waza. I don't know about this kumite thing at all though. I know of two koryu schools that do something that could be described as kumite, but that is not kata training. I understand that practice can get freer at higher levels in other koryu, but that's also outside of kata.

I can see kihon in waza, I don't see kata in waza, and I don't understand your thinking that sparring is in waza.
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:30 AM   #9
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Hello Cliff,
I don't see waza as techniques. In fact I think that is one of the failings of modern aikido. I teach waza as a vehicle for studying external and internal skills related to preparing the body for a martial encounter. In addition to this I would offer the following link as an example of my view of kumite http://www.airdriekarate.com/kumite.html
The first three levels are basic aikido practice up to kaeshi waza. Complete free sparring has never been shown to work, in my opinion, since point scoring ruins power generation and delivery, and full contact without body armour (also has built in failings!) ruins partners;-)
Aikido was developed for martial artists. Certainly almost all first generation were already high graded, so O Sensei taught without much regard to the building blocks. Systemization occurred with his son and Kano's "ideal judo" commenced as kata training. So I guess i pretty much agree with Peter's statement that aikido is kata training, but that is an outer form only, and when overused and not properly understood, limiting rather than liberating.
Of course everything I write is opinion, like everything else here, not really worth expressing let alone defending
respect, Alec

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Old 12-07-2013, 02:02 PM   #10
Cliff Judge
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Hello Cliff,
I don't see waza as techniques. In fact I think that is one of the failings of modern aikido. I teach waza as a vehicle for studying external and internal skills related to preparing the body for a martial encounter. In addition to this I would offer the following link as an example of my view of kumite http://www.airdriekarate.com/kumite.html
The first three levels are basic aikido practice up to kaeshi waza. Complete free sparring has never been shown to work, in my opinion, since point scoring ruins power generation and delivery, and full contact without body armour (also has built in failings!) ruins partners;-)
Aikido was developed for martial artists. Certainly almost all first generation were already high graded, so O Sensei taught without much regard to the building blocks. Systemization occurred with his son and Kano's "ideal judo" commenced as kata training. So I guess i pretty much agree with Peter's statement that aikido is kata training, but that is an outer form only, and when overused and not properly understood, limiting rather than liberating.
Of course everything I write is opinion, like everything else here, not really worth expressing let alone defending
respect, Alec
I almost understand what you are saying about waza, but what I think you are using the word to refer to is something I would refer to as kata. What is the difference between using waza to instill skills, and doing a kata? I think this thing you are describing of using waza to study skills to prepare for a real situation is what Peter is talking about with Aikido actually being kata based.

Osensei was teaching Daito ryu to the first (and possibly later) generation, and whether or not Daito ryu is an actual koryu or not, it is trained similarly to other koryu jujutsu schools, and is (and was) entirely kata based. Aikido, particularly Aikikai and related styles, has lost the formality in favor of dynamism basically. I don't know whether it was Osensei or Kisshomaru who is more responsible for that. I think there are good and bad aspects to the transformation.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:33 PM   #11
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Didn't like the way they did kime-no-kata. But I agree with the main premise. To me, a kata is a library of ideas.

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Old 12-07-2013, 07:41 PM   #12
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi,

I think it is hard to say what Daito Ryu is (or was) with any certainty as everyone has their own Daito Ryu. But heres my 2 yens worth + a grain of salt;
- IMO the Daito Ryu that Ueshiba Sensei learnt and taught was not kata based, but waza based.
- If it were kata based I think you would see more conformity now. Eg. If you studied Kito Ryu and someone said show me Mizu Garuma from the jin no maki, everyone would most likely demonstrate the same thing. I dont think you could easily do that with Daito Ryu.
- In the soden, there are virtually no names of the waza (although other things have names... maybe)
- The flow of the soden can be quite playful. Eg. You do this, then if he does this, then you do this kind of thing. I dont think that is kata based.
- I also think what was transmitted had nothing to do with the waza.

Gavin
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:55 PM   #13
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Re: What Kata Isn't

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Hi,
- If it were kata based I think you would see more conformity now. Eg. If you studied Kito Ryu and someone said show me Mizu Garuma from the jin no maki, everyone would most likely demonstrate the same thing.
Gavin
What I have found amazing over the years is, what with all the different Aikikai groups, when I meet people on seminars - people from America, the UK, Australia or wherever, when you look at those who have been doing it a few years, they are, for the most part, doing everything the same way. Now that is amazing considering we are not intending to do that. It makes me think there is a natural way to do Aikido and that in time we slowly converge.

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Old 12-08-2013, 03:03 PM   #14
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
Gavin Slater wrote: View Post
Hi,

I think it is hard to say what Daito Ryu is (or was) with any certainty as everyone has their own Daito Ryu. But heres my 2 yens worth + a grain of salt;
- IMO the Daito Ryu that Ueshiba Sensei learnt and taught was not kata based, but waza based.
- If it were kata based I think you would see more conformity now. Eg. If you studied Kito Ryu and someone said show me Mizu Garuma from the jin no maki, everyone would most likely demonstrate the same thing. I dont think you could easily do that with Daito Ryu.
- In the soden, there are virtually no names of the waza (although other things have names... maybe)
- The flow of the soden can be quite playful. Eg. You do this, then if he does this, then you do this kind of thing. I dont think that is kata based.
- I also think what was transmitted had nothing to do with the waza.

Gavin
It is actually very straightforward to say what Daito ryu is and has been. There are only a couple of branches of Daito ryu. They each have a distinct view of the world, different traditions, and there is variance in how they organize and work with the kata. But they are all kata based. The Roppokai has put out videos, Kondo Sensei has put out many videos and published books.

The Daito ryu that Ueshiba learned was totally kata based. Ueshiba was taught kata. It makes sense that Ueshiba did much of his early teaching via kata.

Maybe when Ueshiba started wanting to break away from Takeda, he started getting more free-form with the kata, and began to teach at a distance from his students more, as we still do in Aikido. When Takeda came down to the Asashi Shimbun he was like "what the heck are you guys doing? I'll take over here." I can't find my copy of Conversations with the Daito ryu Masters but I think in the interview with Hisa's student, that gentleman reports Tokimune Takeda as saying something along the lines of "Why don't we get these guys back to just learning the kata?"

I think the "teaching via waza" pedagogy was started by Ueshiba, and it was the way he broke the mold. I think you are right about what was transmitted had nothing to do with the waza themselves - I would go further than that and say that a lot was NOT successfully transmitted that should have been. I think one of the reasons for that is the shift to waza itself. In kata training, it is somewhat easier to tell the difference between the waza and the principles. You have a set sequence of movements to make and you know from the getgo that you are learning it for other reasons than just to be able to do the techniques. As soon as you get comfortable with the movements you start looking for what else is going on...a good kata makes you continually ask "What is this this thing supposed to be saying to me that I haven't heard yet."

And fyi kata generally come in different versions, for example omote and ura versions, and they are certainly sequences of moves, so what you are saying about the Soden totally sounds like kata training to me.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:20 PM   #15
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Cliff - I'm not sure that is strictly true. The Budokan video of the Takumakai refers to the Soden techniques as waza rather than kata.
Like most Japanese words, kata and waza are rather loosely defined, bu it is fair to say that a waza tends to be "one thing," whereas a kata as a number of alternatives implicit at every stage of its execution.

Daito-ryu is an example, I believe, of something "on the cusp" - a single sequence that goes from a-b-c. Strictly speaking ALL techniques (waza) that start, for example, from katate-dori are ONE KATA.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 12-09-2013, 06:18 AM   #16
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi,

I have most likely seen some of the videos you refer to, but I feel I would be making very broad assumptions if I were to say what they were with any certainty. They may be kata based, I don't really know as I have never studied them, just watched them on a video.

I think it is an interesting discussion on what the difference is between kata and waza is. But my research on the soden points to it being waza based. I don't think the word kata was ever used, and my impression on how things were taught was more like this;

Lets learn how to attack the neck.
Grab me however you like
OK if he does this, do this and attack the neck
Make sure he cant gouge your eyes here by doing this and attack the neck
If you really want to be horrible to do this
Oh and here is a funky version of it

I don't think that is kata based, and if you looked at the soden you might see a katate dori attack and you might think Ueshiba Sensei or Takeda Sensei were doing a defence from a shoulder grab, but infact they were just teaching how to attack the neck and that's what the uke grabbed them with.

I don't think Ueshiba started the teaching by waza because I think Takeda did the same thing, I think Ueshiba Sensei was just doing it the way he was taught. But I do think Ueshiba Sensei had started to make changes to the waza that he was taught by Takeda as I think Hisa Sensei thought there were 2 kinds of Daito Ryu, Ueshiba Ryu and Takeda Ryu.

The first 6 volumes were Ueshiba Sensei's waza, but often Hisa Sensei would say Ueshiba Sensei would do this waza like this, and Takeda Sensei would do this waza like that, and they could be fundamentally different, even though it is from the same soden waza. So I don't think Takeda Sensei came down to the Asahi Dojo and went "You guys need to start learning the kata!" I think it is more likely he was annoyed with Ueshiba Sensei with some of the fundamental changes he was making to ‘his' martial art.

Im not sure but I don't think Tokimune Takeda Sensei would have said anything like "You guys need to start learning kata!" either. He was around 22? Ueshiba Sensei was 52 and Hisa Sensei was 41 I cant imagine a 22 year coming in and telling them what to do as they were both his senior, and both could throw down by all accounts.

BTW How does one know if something is not taught? And how do you know it should have been? If it wasn't taught?

Gavin
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:30 AM   #17
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Re: What Kata Isn't

The waza presented in the Takumakai video seem to be, objectively, kata. There is a specific attack and a specific response, and the response tends to be rather more elaborate than something you would do exactly in an application. This is similar to what you see in other, later jujutsu systems such as the Hontai / Takagi Ypshin ryu traditions, Tenshin Shinyo ryu, and others.

Mainline Daito ryu is now kata-based. Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei has put out two DVDs through Aikido Journal and there are a couple of other DVDs that show an explain some of the Hiden Mokuroku kata. The current organization of the kata are from Tokimune. I think it is far more likely that he did exactly that - rename and re-organize kata that he was taught - than that he created the kata out of waza. Furthermore, the Takumakai has, I have read, aligned their syllabus to that of the mainline. I don't see why they would do this if it marked an abandonment of their techniques.

IMO a kata is essentially "textual" - they literally come from a text, and figuratively, they are a way to formally organize the skills, techniques, and principles of a system. A waza can be that, but generally I think a waza is something you can use on drunks. A kata is to be learned correctly - it is essentially not enough that the techniques contained in the waza succeed, the kata must be performed correctly before you can feel what you are supposed to be learning. Hence the difficulty in Aikido in getting beginning students to not use too much muscle - muscle can often be employed to get the job done, and if you can't get the student to realize that that's not enough, they aren't going to start figuring out how to learn new ways of aligning their structure and using their energy. (Perhaps this is why so many folks are trying to bring IS into their Aikido as well).

Sokaku Takeda was illiterate, yet there are all of these Daito ryu scrolls...perhaps Daito ryu and Aikido come out of a set of previous sources as presented by Takeda's theatric, travelling road show method of teaching through seminars. Perhaps, when a paranoid genius with severe ADHD and wanderlust attempts to teach a kata-based curriculum, what you get is a tradition of waza-based training.

The passage I was thinking about with regard to Tokimune suggesting that training at the Asahi Shimbun dojo was more along the lines of Tokimune saying, "Father, perhaps we should teach the old kata again?" i.e. it sounded to me like it would have been appropriate for the young Tokimune to make such a suggestion.

Now that COULD have been something inserted into the story later, to give some legitimacy to Tokimune's Daito ryu structure, but suffice to say I've been down that rabbit hole in other forums and it seems that the Kodokai and probably Sagawa groups have the same syllabus, but the kata are organized along different lines and some of them have been combined.

I might as well out myself at this point - I've been training Daito ryu under Kondo Sensei for about two years, with Chris Covington and Brian Wagner. Let me put it this way - if Tokimune Takeda invented the kata-based system of Daito ryu, you people should be forgetting this Ueshiba guy entirely, he may have had some skills when he was alive but he took it with him and when it comes to creating a martial tradition, he was a hack. The kata of Daito ryu are brilliant things. But they really speak more of generations of careful transmission, study, and very gradual, thoughtful improvement, than invention by a single man.

Kind of rambling here, I guess - but I did a little bit of Hontai Yoshin ryu with Steve Fabian. That's essentially a koryu system that was thoroughly reorganized by a 20th century menkyo kaiden, Saburi Minaki. There are three sets of kata taught at the beginning levels that were apparently created whole cloth by Minaki. These are really much more like waza. There are ten kata in each set, and each set is a sequence of particular attacks. Each kata involves a rather simple and direct technique that is performed on uke. It is quite difficult to see what the underlying principles of the ryu are based on these kata. They are definitely in there somewhere but the feeling of the kata is much more "okay so now you've got him choked out and you didn't leave yourself open to reversal the whole way through. Brilliant. Now the next one..."

Daito ryu is not like that at all - you really can't see the kata as techniques in and of themselves. But I must digress at this point. I can't pin it down but it all points to Daito ryu being a kata-based system with Sokaku Takeda being this sort of singularity that Daito ryu both comes from and goes back to somehow.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:11 AM   #18
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Perhaps it would be more accurate, if we use traditional terminology, to distinguish between solo kata and partner kata which is more correctly prearranged kumite. I have posted previously that the three traditional components of Budo are kihon (basic movements/underlying principles embedded in the movements), kata (prearranged forms linking these movements together in transitional ways, essential for combat which occurs within transitions), and kumite (partner work ranging from structured to freestyle).
I would have to strongly disagree with this. Kumite is a term that comes out of the Okinawan Te tradition. Traditionally in Japan, all kata were and continue to be paired practice (with the exception of live blade iai, for obvious safety reasons).

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Old 12-10-2013, 11:58 AM   #19
Cliff Judge
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
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I would have to strongly disagree with this. Kumite is a term that comes out of the Okinawan Te tradition. Traditionally in Japan, all kata were and continue to be paired practice (with the exception of live blade iai, for obvious safety reasons).
There are some koryu that incorporate non-kata training. Just off the top of my head:

Maniwa Nen ryu does rules-bound sparring after the beginner level
Owari Kan ryu does rules-bound sparring before the beginner level

(but I have heard that the Owari Kan ryu practice (of the Shumpukan) is a post-Meiji addition. Maniwa Nen ryu might not have been using such practice methods until the Edo period.)

So that's actually kumite as Alec is referring to it. As far as solo:

Yagyu Shingan ryu teaches solo drills.
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu do lots of suburi.

I wonder if these are recent additions as well? I also wonder how far back the practice of solo iai kata goes...a guess a good starting place is Katori - did they always have solo iaijutsu or was it once paired?
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:11 PM   #20
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Re: What Kata Isn't

I have to admit to laziness and sloppiness. I am less interested in historical research than principles, but I must extend my respect to people such as Peter and Cliff that demonstrate a scholarly accuracy with regards to details and sources. The thrust of my initial statements remain: Aikido is an art that attempts the virtually impossible teaching kihon, kata and kumite via waza. i will shut up now and leave it alone.
Alec

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Old 12-10-2013, 01:53 PM   #21
Cliff Judge
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
I have to admit to laziness and sloppiness. I am less interested in historical research than principles, but I must extend my respect to people such as Peter and Cliff that demonstrate a scholarly accuracy with regards to details and sources. The thrust of my initial statements remain: Aikido is an art that attempts the virtually impossible teaching kihon, kata and kumite via waza. i will shut up now and leave it alone.
Alec
Hey no need to bring Peter down to my level!

I agree with you that Aikido teaches via waza. And I agree that it tries to teach kihon and some other things via waza, but I don't think your idea of kata and kumite are in there - i.e. Aikido is not trying to use waza to teach paired forms, and it is not using waza to teach free technique. Well maybe it does. So definitely kihon, possibly kumite, but not kata.

I think the problem with Aikido is that we are either making sure our waza has the desired effect, or we are looking for the right "feel." But it's never both, and we're never really satisfied with either, and we look for the one in the place of the other, and etc. We figure out how to make things work, then we realize we're using our bodies entirely wrong so we go looking for some solution to that problem...or we learn how to use our bodies correctly and in an integrated fashion and then we realize our technique is lacking so we go off and look for a solution to that.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:45 PM   #22
Janet Rosen
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Re: What Kata Isn't

I think of much of basic aikido training as kata=based in that various styles each have their own ideal form for the attack, for the application of the technique, for uke's response to the technique. You can do each side of it solo once you know it.
This is at basic level, not jiyuwaza or randori.

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Old 12-10-2013, 08:31 PM   #23
Gavin Slater
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi,

I guess its just my opinion maybe we are talking about the same thing. Im not a Japanese language expert, and I only have basic Japanese. But I think people generally teach what they were taught with their own experience added in. What you may be calling kata, and me calling waza might be the same thing.

But from my experience the soden were never referred to as kata. My original post was in reference to the Daito Ryu that Ueshiba sensei learnt/taught around the time of the Asahi Dojo. We have a record of those waza via the soden (+ other things like Noma Dojo etc).

Although it is fun to postulate what Takeda Sensei was like, in the end it is just speculation based on the opinion of an opinion. I didnt really get the ADHD thing, and Ueshiba Sensei being a hack. I heard that Takeda Sensei was a good sushi chef, liked long walks on the beach and his favourite colour is blue.

I do think it is hard to say what Daito Ryu is and isn't. What I think it is and isn't changes everyday. Maybe thats why people dont comment on it.

Regards,

Gav
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:39 PM   #24
Cliff Judge
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Gavin,

I think I see what you are saying about your experience of Daito ryu. Yeah, kata and waza are kind of loose terms.

One thing though, do you think the waza training at the Asahi dojo in the late 30s was the same general thing as training that s conducted in mainstream Aikido dojos around the world today?
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:51 AM   #25
Gavin Slater
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Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi,

It is hard to say for sure, I have never done Aikido so this is just a guess;

- Ueshiba Sensei taught at the Asahi dojo, I think he had 'started' to change a little bit I think by the time he got to the Asahi. I base this on the Asahi video, and the fact I was told that as well. Hisa Sensei also taught at the aikido hombu dojo as well.
- Takeda Sensei taught there (I think they even taught there concurrently for a very short time. Ueshiba Sensei in the morning, and Takeda Sensei in the evening) and Hisa Sensei said there were two types of Daito Ryu. So maybe he considered Ueshiba Sensei's waza to still be Daito Ryu even though he changed it.
- If you are talking about Takeda Sensei's waza then no I dont think it is the same.
- If you are talking about Ueshiba Sensei's waza then its possible. I think what you would have to ask is; is the Aikido the same as what Ueshiba Sensei did, then ask is the Aikido his son then grandson did the same as what he did. I have no idea on that.

Gav
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