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Old 07-03-2014, 08:53 PM   #1
Riai Maori
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Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

A fellow Aikidoka from another thread of mine suggest I read this....Powerful reading. Enjoy

http://www.intechopen.com/books/inju...eaching-aikido

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
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Old 07-05-2014, 12:21 PM   #2
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Classical mechanics are for inanimate objects. The human body is an animate object and its systems are to.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/tensegr...omechanics.php

dps
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Old 07-05-2014, 04:19 PM   #3
Riai Maori
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Classical mechanics are for inanimate objects. The human body is an animate object and its systems are to.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/tensegr...omechanics.php

dps
Dear David,

Most of my postings on this Web site have always drawn a negative response from you. I respect your opinions.

Question: Can our animate human body be trained to do inanimate mechanics and can inanimate objects be trained to do animate mechanics?

I have a feeling I already know the answer.

Kind regards
Richard

Last edited by Riai Maori : 07-05-2014 at 04:27 PM.

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Old 07-05-2014, 05:03 PM   #4
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Quote:
Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
A fellow Aikidoka from another thread of mine suggest I read this....Powerful reading. Enjoy

http://www.intechopen.com/books/inju...eaching-aikido
Richard

Have you ever thought to practice with an open mind and just feel, find and enjoy the natural techniques of Aikido. My son Rik Ellis ( Aikido MMA ) is always happy to entertain ```any``` kind of Aikidoka to feel true traditional Aikido of the old school - you can always explain the physics to him when you come round.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido `
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com//
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Old 07-05-2014, 05:50 PM   #5
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Smile Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Richard

Have you ever thought to practice with an open mind and just feel, find and enjoy the natural techniques of Aikido. My son Rik Ellis ( Aikido MMA ) is always happy to entertain ```any``` kind of Aikidoka to feel true traditional Aikido of the old school - you can always explain the physics to him when you come round.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido `
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com//
Hello Shihan Ellis

I will now that you reiterated, thought I did, perhaps perceived not. Thanks for the invitation would enjoy the company. Don't know if he would enjoy mine.

All the best

Richard

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Old 07-06-2014, 11:36 AM   #6
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Huh. Interesting exchange. Above.

The new biomechanics article seems to ignore that the body (bodies if you include critters) has a LOT of connective tissue holding everything together at a sometimes microscopic level. Also, basically nothing but bone deposits are actually "fixed" in place. Reading throught he article, the erroneous statements seem to leap out at me.... the "frictionless surface of the ice" etc. That ice is only nearly frictionless in the direct linear path of the line of the skater's blades, which is why they can push laterally and move. Guess what that is? Physics.

But, it sounds like there is an axe grinding going on above of one kind or another, so that's all I've got on it.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 07-06-2014, 02:09 PM   #7
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

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John Powell wrote: View Post
But, it sounds like there is an axe grinding going on above of one kind or another, so that's all I've got on it.
The feeling is mutual.

Last edited by Riai Maori : 07-06-2014 at 02:11 PM.

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Old 07-07-2014, 01:49 AM   #8
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Quote:
Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
...Powerful reading. Enjoy
The article is based on Yoshigasaki Kenjiro doshu's understanding of ki as a "line of force". When you understand aiki as uke creating a "line of force" (= ki of uke) and tori adjusting/aligning his "line of force" (= ki of tori) the model depicted in the linked article may give you some hints how to construct the waza.

When you understand aiki as something happening in tori, who's body then connects to the body of uke this model will not only be superficial or oversimplified but simply wrong. It doesn't describe what is happening.

You have the rotation of dantian, i.e. a circular movement within tori. You have the two "forces" of yin and yang inside tori. Not only that they are working in opposite directions simultaneously, also they are usually working in spirals. This is embedded in the body extending to six directions simultaneously.
Plus. The teachers I work with add leading qi to certain areas of the body: Fingertips, palm, sole of the foot ...
Plus. You open or close certain joints and your spine ...
Plus. Some other things ...
And - what's best: Nearly nothing of this can be seen on the outside.

Even if you could describe the system of the different forces created by the dantian, yin/yang, spirals and so on within in the body - which doesn't seem that simple to me - you will have great difficulties to describe in mechanical terms what happens, when you put qi in your fingertips or when you open your spine ...
But someone who touches you will clearly feel it. And an uke who attacks you will clearly be affected by it.

Allthough this is only a inchoate sketch of what is happening in tori depending on my limited experience this alone is far too complicated to describe it in a helpfull way in mechanical metaphors.

Next steps would then be first to describe how tori connects to uke. And finally what happens in uke via this connection: How can the body structure of a person be affected by only thouching him with my palm and without any outward movement? Why does he have to move?!

To close the circle:
When you watch Yoshigasaki doshu doing his way of aikidō, you may observe that and how the article of Mroczkowski sensei fits to his waza.
When you watch Yamaguchi sensei, or the shihan I follow, Endō Seishiro sensei, you might realise that it is not only not complete but simply based on a different way to create the waza.
And when you do any sort of internal practice you will realize and experience that the model of Mroczkowski sensei does not apply. When you don't practice the aikidō of Yoshikasaki sensei it even hinders your understanding of how aikidō - and most other budō - works.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 07-07-2014 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 07-07-2014, 07:34 AM   #9
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
When you understand aiki as something happening in tori, who's body then connects to the body of uke this model will not only be superficial or oversimplified but simply wrong. It doesn't describe what is happening.
There are things that happen in tori, and there are things that happen in uke, and there are things that happen when they both meet.
To say that any of these models describes correctly what happens, is overconfident. To describe Yoshigasakis (based on Toheis) Aikido only by creation of linear forces, seemes to be inappropriate for me.
I'm not a friend of any mechanistic explanation of Aikido, all models can just be approximations.
To say what happens first or second is already distorting what occures.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
When you watch Yamaguchi sensei, or the shihan I follow, Endō Seishiro sensei, you might realise that it is not only not complete but simply based on a different way to create the waza.
Techniques in Aiki are not constructed or created, they happen in a natural way.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
When you don't practice the aikidō of Yoshikasaki sensei it even hinders your understanding of how aikidō - and most other budō - works.
I'm not sure if I understand what you want to say.
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:13 PM   #10
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

It think I would contend that this is applicable to jujutsu. I am not sure I see anything that cries out "aikido" as a separate and unique component to what is in the article. Yes, rotate around a pivot point and that creates torsion... Physics is not unique to aikido, so I am not sure we are separating ourselves by drawing upon an explanation that is valid for a number of other arts that all twists wrists. I think we are looking for something different that "breaks" some of the rules. To Carsten's point, I think we are looking for the things that are not readily available in other systems, such as dueling opposing spirals, non-linear (circular/spiral) lines of energy, chained reactions and the like.

If that makes sense...

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Old 07-09-2014, 01:40 AM   #11
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if I understand what you want to say.
From conversations and practice with students of Yoshigasaki doshu I got the impression, that it help's them a lot, to think in mechanical terms like vektors, forces and so on. So it does not surprise me that it is a student of Yoshigasaki doshu who wrote this article about "biomechanics in teaching aikidō". I think in his practice it really works.

In my own practice there is a different understanding of what aiki is and how it comes into existence. So in my practice the way of depiciting aikidō waza of Mroczkowski sensei not only is not helpfull, but, what's more, provide's a wrong image of what is happening.
So thinking in a mechanical symbolism like he does may even hinder to get what is to be learned. The same is true at least for three other budō I'm a little familiar with: I think you won't be able to comprehend TSKSR, KSR or daitō ryū in such a mechanical way.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
If that makes sense...
I think it does.
Although ...
... I think those "things that are not readily available in other systems" are to be found not only in aikidō. My aikidō teacher is doing TSKSR - and there clearly is aiki. I sometimes practice with people from the Roppokai - and there clearly is aiki. Also in the KSR it exists.
But in all these systems aiki is that what is "not readily available" in a simply mechanical understanding of that art.
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Old 07-09-2014, 02:38 AM   #12
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
So thinking in a mechanical symbolism like he does may even hinder to get what is to be learned. The same is true at least for three other budō I'm a little familiar with: I think you won't be able to comprehend TSKSR, KSR or daitō ryū in such a mechanical way.
I think there are many things to be learned.
Some parts of O Senseis Aikido can be explained in terms of directions and movement, some parts not.
Im Iwama Ryu they often speak about "blending", and this is exactly what Ueshiba did in a perfect way. In the moment of contact an aiki-action happened.
Most "styles" of Aikido have just parts of the whole. Definitely daito ryu had strong Aiki, but from the view of Aikido it's the antecessor, many of Ueshias ideas took shape in later years and configured his way of implementing aiki.

My teacher, Asai Sensei, often talks about how it felt to take ukemi from O Sensei. He made a move and you began to run, you did't know why. There was no physical touch until you began to move.
But the blending and the timing of O Sensei was perfect, an in the moment of contact all vectors, angles and directions matched perfectly, although you by yourself never knew what he did because you sudedenly found yourself on the mat, other people who where whatching could tell you it was ikkyo ore another clear determinable technique.
To get an understanding how Aikido works, there is more than one level to master.
I don't think that it's poosible to begin with inner mechanics and ignore the technical basics.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:07 AM   #13
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Re: Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Although ...
... I think those "things that are not readily available in other systems" are to be found not only in aikidō. My aikidō teacher is doing TSKSR - and there clearly is aiki. I sometimes practice with people from the Roppokai - and there clearly is aiki. Also in the KSR it exists.
But in all these systems aiki is that what is "not readily available" in a simply mechanical understanding of that art.
I think this is completely accurate as a reflection of the "aiki" arts, whether they share the nomenclature that defines the arts (like Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu) or not. The next step is evaluating the methodology of instruction among the aiki arts and distilling down those elements most successful in teaching aiki.

Better yet, it also gives us an idea of where to look for our aiki instruction. Should we be looking in jujutsu arts, or aiki arts? If we should be looking in aiki arts for aiki instruction, why do we keep falling back to jujutsu? Markus has a point I currently hold - that we need to have an external vessel to hold some basic instruction.I happen to think the education is progressive and eventually needs to be discarded to allow for the internalization of aiki. Some of our never leave the jujutsu orientation and that's fine. But it is not aiki and should not be confused as such. In can be, and often is, good jutjutsu that replicates the outcome of aiki.

Last edited by jonreading : 07-09-2014 at 09:11 AM.

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