Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Internal Training in Aikido

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-22-2013, 09:37 AM   #151
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Spain
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
And to be clear, I am not setting a bar.
True, in fact you were complaining about the burden of proof placed upon proponents of aiki by the skeptics. A burden of proof that seems unfair to you. Well, life is unfair, deal with it.

You could have pointed the skeptics to your youtube channel (publicly available) and let them decide. If they like what is shown, then fine; if they are not amused.... fine too. No thread derailing, no e-drama, no passive agressiveness. Back to topic, the show must go on.
.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 09:57 AM   #152
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 897
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
True, in fact you were complaining about the burden of proof placed upon proponents of aiki by the skeptics. A burden of proof that seems unfair to you. Well, life is unfair, deal with it.

You could have pointed the skeptics to your youtube channel (publicly available) and let them decide. If they like what is shown, then fine; if they are not amused.... fine too. No thread derailing, no e-drama, no passive agressiveness. Back to topic, the show must go on.
.
Wow. A link to my personal youtube. Well, Logan is 4 and Brynn is 2. Thanks for sharing that. Who cannot like Logan singing "Itsy Bitsy Spider?" I think he was 2 when we made that video. Making videos is so easy, I cannot believe we don't do it more...

Of course, I suppose you also could've just watch the video I posted earlier in the thread... But surely you've read my previous posts and felt that the video I posted did not demonstrate 6 directions better than my Star Wars voice over of Jabba the Hut.

Last edited by jonreading : 10-22-2013 at 10:03 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 10:05 AM   #153
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Spain
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Of course, I suppose you also could've just watch the video I posted earlier in the thread...
How do you think I've found your youtube channel?

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 10:23 AM   #154
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 897
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

I don't doubt it. I have a public profile in YouTube because my extended family is spread out and I use videos to share stuff with my family. I chose to share a link to a specific video, not a channel. Obviously, there's nothing up there that is truly sensitive; but I hope you can appreciate some sensitivity to sharing a channel that is predominantly [obviously] personal videos. Any vetting of my channel before publishing your post with the link would've revealed that fact. Also, I would be happy to send links to any videos I publish that I feel are illustrative in making my point or contributing to a thread.

I guess this is what to expect if you're stupid enough to share a video...

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 10:43 AM   #155
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

What can I say to make you and your friends realize that what you are doing is putting people down and not raising them up?

If you are really in a position to help people, why don't you grow some leadership skills to pair up with those internal abilities?

You are so desperate to protect your position that you have abandoned its responsibilities.

This is the very heart of weakness. Exchanging the ability to make a difference for the chance to look good.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 10:51 AM   #156
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Spain
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I guess this is what to expect if you're stupid enough to share a video...
Not stupid.... but zanshin lacking.

Now on (more or less) topic: You are a proponent of IP, your clips show the effects of IP/IS/Aiki training. Some people will say 'I want this' others will say 'do not want'.

What is the problem? Do you aiki people need thousands of born again aikidoka to feel your practise validated or what? Kick some asses and validate yourselves, like everyone has to.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 11:13 AM   #157
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

I see training IP and aiki as the most authentic way to get closer to Ueshiba's vision, Takeda's world, or however one wishes to look at it. It also is a more effective and efficient way to do aikido... which is why it was at the core of Ueshiba's personal practice. In fact, it's a more effective and efficient way to do any martial art. But of course, that is not a priority for everyone.

There have been some very open and honest reports here on AikiWeb from individuals who were very critical of the IP/aiki group's claims, but who had the courage to seek out and experience it and came away with a better understanding of what those claims were. Some who did this decided that the power and aiki were real, and interesting, but the training was not necessary for them, based on their personal aims and goals of what they want to get from aikido. For others, IP/aiki became an essential and major focus for their aikido. In either case, these people at least went and sampled what they could of it before making any pronouncements or judgements.

It's all well and good to be a detractor of something, based solely on watching videos, but that will never give the person a true picture of what they are criticizing. The old refrain "it has to be felt" is not just a hackneyed cliche. It is the truth, which is why it has become the refrain to all of these contentious threads.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-22-2013 at 11:18 AM. Reason: Adding "not" ("the training was -not- necessary")
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 11:55 AM   #158
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,087
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post

Where I fit into the whole argument is that I don't think the training methods these folks use have any relation to what Ueshiba and Takeda or any of their students except Sagawa did. This may not matter to you given where you are coming from.
I believe that statement to be incorrect, but I'll leave that aside for now.

Let's assume that you are correct and that they didn't use those training methods.

Does it matter?

People today use a lot of training methods that Ueshiba never used.

Ueshiba never did the paired sword kata or two sword work that Saotome does. He never did the intricate Toho Iai system that Nishio devised. He never did the koshi-nage that were introduced by Kuroiwa and Nishio. He never did the Aiki Taiso that Koichi Tohei did. He never did the Ki no Renma that Hiroshi Tada does.

I see very few people wandering around saying "I'm concerned about all of those Italians spending so much time on Ki no Renma, since Ueshiba never used that training method...".

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 12:20 PM   #159
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 897
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Not stupid.... but zanshin lacking.

Now on (more or less) topic: You are a proponent of IP, your clips show the effects of IP/IS/Aiki training. Some people will say 'I want this' others will say 'do not want'.

What is the problem? Do you aiki people need thousands of born again aikidoka to feel your practise validated or what? Kick some asses and validate yourselves, like everyone has to.
First, I am not a proponent of internal power. I have attended a seminar and see value in its training. Over the next several years I will commit time and resources to integrating internal power into my training. Once I have some time on the job, I will be happy to advocate specifically the methods of training internally. I find myself in a role of defending aiki because as I previously posted, at a time when I was looking for it I experienced personal frustration reading through the obviously prejudiced posts here on Aikiweb. I wish that those behind me do not experience that frustration. I don't care who believes it or not, but I would like to be part of the solution in providing helpful information about internal power. Now I find myself one of "you people".

What few video clips I have published are largely training that pre-dates my exposure to aiki and more specifically refer to the evolution of my personal training methods. The clip I posted predated my exposure to IP by several months. In my post I spend a minute describing the place that video holds in my progression. So no, my clips will not show any of the training that is typically considered "internal". What you see in my clips are my training methods and my style of aikido.

Several posts back, I made some comments about the direction of this thread - I have highlighted them below. While Demetrio's response is almost ver batum an inductive claim that my video is an example of the effects of IP, I also thinks its interesting to note that several posters have, in fact, busted my balls for my comments. I cannot think of a safer or more open forum in which to share my thoughts. But that's more because I don't have any leadership skills... or common courtesy.

Ben is right, I have found my last many posts in this thread devoted to defending aiki and not focused on the topic. This thread is obviously no longer about 6 directions and it is clear that it will not return to that topic...

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Maybe I am reading the intention of some posts wrong. I am hoping we have some unclear humor and this thread is not degrading into a bully IP thing.

As some of the thread drifts towards a validation of what is IP, I think criticizing posters for not publishing "sufficient" information about their understanding of IP is inappropriate. If the comments are a little too dry, let's clarify when we are joking.

There are previous posts on this topic, many posted by IP proponents no longer on this forum. There are current threads containing IP content. Now we need to see videos. Great. Ledyard and Gleason both have DVDs for sale in which they address basic introduction material. Better yet, attend a seminar. You call BS? Visit the man and check yourself. You'll either be right or wrong.

I think right now any discussion on this stuff sits under a cloud of judgment just waiting to find the "a ha" moment which someone will use to discredit IP [in their mind]. It takes a lot a courage to post on this topic. It takes a lot of thinking to articulate on a basic level what is happening. There is no conspiracy to withhold information. This is new and exciting stuff that changes every time I have a conversation with someone. You gonna bust my balls because I don't feel safe enough to publish my personal training notes for you to tear down?

If you don't believe this stuff, God bless you. The beauty of Aikiweb is there are several threads to which we can contribute. But I would much rather foster a community encouraging people working with AIki/IP to express what they are feeling and how they are progressing their understanding of what is going on. You think its BS? Fine, then post back what we do in all the other threads when people talk about the weird s$%t they do, "That sounds interesting. Good luck with your training." I do not enjoy sounding like my mother, but I think 6 directions is incredibly important to aiki and I do not want posters to feel intimidated in sharing what they have picked up...including me.

That sounds interesting. Good luck with your training.

Last edited by jonreading : 10-22-2013 at 12:35 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 12:40 PM   #160
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Spain
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
First, I am not a proponent of internal power. I have attended a seminar and see value in its training.
...
What few video clips I have published are largely training that pre-dates my exposure to aiki and more specifically refer to the evolution of my personal training methods. The clip I posted predated my exposure to IP by several months..
My bad. Sorry.

OTOH, you have provided valuable data for a theory I'm ellaborating. Thanks.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 12:45 PM   #161
Mert Gambito
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 202
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Aspects of aiki-taiso of both Morihei Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei are incorporated into the training models of Dan Harden and Mike Sigman, to name a couple.

There are videos of Bill Gleason, for example, on YouTube folks can watch, but can't feel what's going on. Nonetheless, enjoy. It's good stuff on video, but again, better in person.

Quote:
You are so desperate to protect your position that you have abandoned its responsibilities.
There is still such a profound disparity in ability between the IP teachers who've earned their reputations, and those learning from them (most folks discussing this material here, for example, began training within the past half-decade), that as of today, the responsible thing remains to refer inquiring parties to the source teachers. As previously stated, I suspect in a few years, while that disparity will remain (the credible IP teachers are gym rats for what they teach), there will be a number of folks who can adequately demonstrate principles and applications within the context of aikido, and some beyond it.

Quote:
Kick some asses and validate yourselves, like everyone has to.
LOL, who is "everyone"? What percentage of martial artists across the board train to become consummate fighters? Most MMA folks I know, for example, enjoy practicing their standing game, rolling and sparring for the same reasons aikidoka enjoy waza and randori: the challenge of self-betterment with the help of like-minded people. And again, learning to fight and learning IP (as a dedicated body skill) are different things. At the judo dojo where my kids (and I sometimes) train, there are students who enjoy the technical aspects of the art, e.g. footwork and the finer points of establishing leverage; but are struggling to grasp the spirit and tactics that are important in randori and shiai. Then there's the opposite, where some have an instinct for the competition aspects, but often prevail by brute conviction and force. Becoming a good judoka requires a lot of work to meld both. Given the limitations in most people's daily schedules, when do you find time to "stand in six directions" for an hour or more a day on top of that? How much harder is it to pursue IP if you decide to divide time, or eek out a bit more time at the expense of other priorities, to incorporate striking and striking defenses standing and on the ground needed to operate in MMA? That said, there are a handful of folks in MMA and fighting arts who are pursuing IP skills through the same avenues as various aikidoka here. Don't hold your breath: I doubt they're reading these threads.

Mert
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 01:01 PM   #162
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 897
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
My bad. Sorry.

OTOH, you have provided valuable data for a theory I'm ellaborating. Thanks.
I'll be happy to help with what experience I have. Seriously.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 10:14 PM   #163
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

My, how the thread has degenerated since I last checked in.

Jon, I thought your Aikido videos were interesting, especially now that I know they preceded your intro to the IP stuff. I'll be in Atlanta in two weeks, can I come train with you? I'll send a PM.

Demetrio, you apparently wanted to throw mud at those videos but it seems you couldn't man up to make any specific criticism (#151). I hope the above is sufficiently clear to communicate what I thought.

Kinda interesting that almost no one has anything to say about the specific videos I did post back in #57. Y'all are plenty free with the noise, but when someone posts specific examples of O-Sensei doing this kind of stuff you look the other way? Fine, but it does reveal what you've got. (Which is nothing---this is the internet, so one has to be explicit.)

This is so stupid. I know a bunch of you guys on the hating side (can I say 'hating,' Jun? (For non-English speakers, I'm using it in the sense that my teen daughter uses it: haters gonna hate)) have some real skill. I know some of you guys have skills I don't have, and would like to have. They may or may not include the skills we're calling 'aiki', but that doesn't make them invalid or uninteresting. I'd much rather have a conversation about aiki over here and talk about your skills over there than spend all this time pissing on each others' shoes. Especially since the only way to resolve anything is to get on the mat together.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 11:52 PM   #164
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I know some of you guys have skills I don't have, and would like to have. They may or may not include the skills we're calling 'aiki', but that doesn't make them invalid or uninteresting. I'd much rather have a conversation about aiki over here and talk about your skills over there than spend all this time pissing on each others' shoes. Especially since the only way to resolve anything is to get on the mat together.
Hugh,

I hear where you are coming from. I want it to be this way too. I have for several years. But maybe it is time for "you guys" (I'm laughing while typing that) to relinquish the use of "aiki." I don't think you own it. I don't think it describes "IP/IT/IS."

Like Jonathan said, I'm probably a sicko, because if you would just call it kokyu or kokyu ryoku, I would find it much more palatable, and no less relevant, by the way!

The problem is, from my perspective, that these skills simply do not encompass aiki, an independent martial skill, as contemplated by Morihei Ueshiba.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 12:34 AM   #165
Mert Gambito
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 202
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
But maybe it is time for "you guys" (I'm laughing while typing that) to relinquish the use of "aiki." I don't think you own it. I don't think it describes "IP/IT/IS."

Like Jonathan said, I'm probably a sicko, because if you would just call it kokyu or kokyu ryoku, I would find it much more palatable, and no less relevant, by the way!

The problem is, from my perspective, that these skills simply do not encompass aiki, an independent martial skill, as contemplated by Morihei Ueshiba.
Michael,

A couple of the IP/IS methodologies utilized by contributors to this forum were primarily derived from Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu, so it's "aiki" at face value.

If Morihei Ueshiba felt strongly enough that a yoga-influenced path to aiki was deserving of praise bestowed on Koichi Tohei, then a methodology from within aikido's family tree shouldn't be disowned by aikidoka.

A man who trained with Ueshiba, regarded as a skeptic regarding those claiming representation of Ueshiba's prodigious aiki, has confirmed that Dan Harden's skills are analogous.

As previously stated, some IP/IS methodologies (including Dan's) include exercises analogous to some of those in aikido aiki-taiso.

It's aiki in the vein of Ueshiba by lineage, first-hand vetting and content.

Mert
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 01:12 AM   #166
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
It's all well and good to be a detractor of something, based solely on watching videos, but that will never give the person a true picture of what they are criticizing. The old refrain "it has to be felt" is not just a hackneyed cliche. It is the truth, which is why it has become the refrain to all of these contentious threads.
I really don't know where this was directed, but I felt obliged to respond. I am no doubt considered a detractor of "IP/IT/IS" here on AikiWeb. What may be missed is that I have tried on numerous occasions to "get hands on" with the top guys. At one point I arraigned to host a Mike Sigman workshop that fell through to no fault of his. I have attempted to attend five of Dan Harden's workshops and have not been allowed to attend. Yes. That does actually happen to some of us! Against my better judgment, I may attempt to attend his next workshop that I just saw advertised at ADV. I have attended two of Ikeda's seminars, although I was informed that this was before he was good at "IP/IT/IS" related stuff. I have also trained at one George Ledyard seminar, but again this was before he was exposed to "IP/IT/IS."

In July, I was in Hawaii and was able to train with Chris Li's group. I chose not to post about it for various reasons. It was only two occasions for a total of about four hours, plus another hour chatting with Chris. I liked Chris, not as much as the old guy Henry, who was such a character it would be hard to find a more likeable guy (Sorry, Mert. I don't know where you were! I was looking forward to meeting you.). I believe I conducted myself admirably. I knew I had a limited amount of time. I was curious and asked questions. I was attentive and respectful. I did not challenge anyone. I wanted to get "hands on" with Chris, and yet, I did not want to put the pressure of being the standard bearer of "IP/IT/IS" on him. I love Hawaii, I've been there numerous times, and I have no doubt that I will be going back. I would love to train with the Oahu group again.

That said, what they trained in was not aikido, and the skill they were attempting to cultivate was not aiki. And further, it wasn't a particularly martial expression of anything. For what it's worth, I have an Iwama style background (Why doesn't Saito's perspective and relationship with Morihei and aikido ever get mentioned in "IP/IT/IS" threads?!).

I don't want there to be any misunderstanding. I don't want it to seem like I went there and mastered the material in a matter of hours. I struggled to perform the exercises that they used; they were foreign to me, most likely taken from Chen taiji or synthesized from other Chinese arts.

Everything of quality in the martial arts, "internal" or "external," has to be felt, so please, don't hide behind "IHTBF" or attempt to hold that in place of rational discussion. . . which is all we can hope to do here.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 01:48 AM   #167
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Mert,

Kokyu is essential to aikido.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 02:00 AM   #168
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
Obviously, there's nothing up there that is truly sensitive; but I hope you can appreciate some sensitivity to sharing a channel that is predominantly [obviously] personal videos. Any vetting of my channel before publishing your post with the link would've revealed that fact.
Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote:
It's aiki in the vein of Ueshiba by lineage, first-hand vetting and content.
I'm not one for censorship, but if there's one word I could have banned from AikiWeb. . .

So many bad memories.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 03:13 AM   #169
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,087
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
That said, what they trained in was not aikido, and the skill they were attempting to cultivate was not aiki. And further, it wasn't a particularly martial expression of anything. For what it's worth, I have an Iwama style background (Why doesn't Saito's perspective and relationship with Morihei and aikido ever get mentioned in "IP/IT/IS" threads?!).

I don't want there to be any misunderstanding. I don't want it to seem like I went there and mastered the material in a matter of hours. I struggled to perform the exercises that they used; they were foreign to me, most likely taken from Chen taiji or synthesized from other Chinese arts.
I don't think that we ever got far enough to really get into a discussion of Aiki, but you'd have to tell me what you think Aiki is before we could really get to that (I'm not being snide, I just mean that I'd have to understand what you're discussing).

I know they look strange, but everything that we did came straight out of Japanese arts - and there was nothing that we did that I haven't done with Seigo Yamaguchi and other students of the Founder, including Morihiro Saito.

Of course, individual exercises vary, but that's true in conventional Aikido as well. Nishio didn't teach the same exercises in the same way that the Founder did, neither did Tamura or Tada - but nobody says that what they're doing isn't Aikido.

In the same vein, what Saito did was not really the same as what the Founder did either - he attempted to duplicate the form of the Founder, but the process was often quite different, he said as much himself on a number of occasions.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 04:04 AM   #170
Mert Gambito
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 202
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Mert,

Michael,

Ah, hope you liked our open-air dojo. :-) The members of the study group I spoke with said you were a gentleman and pleasant to train with. Again, it's too bad that the internet gets in the way of proper human communication.

Kokyu is essential to aikido.
Based on what I understand of aikido, and aiki-jutsu (via the Hakkoryu window), I agree.

I mentioned Bill Gleason's videos earlier. I'd say what he's doing here is legitimately aikido, while being legitimately representative of Dan Harden's aiki model: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2knQQMFeZw.

While I wasn't there to meet and train with you in July, since I know the range of material that would've included what you worked on with Chris, Henry, et al; and Bill Gleason has taught here; I can say with certainty that what you tried out in Honolulu are body-conditioning drills that also drive Bill's waza in the video. I'd say in a couple years, a visitor to the park would experience more of a continuum from static solo and paired training through waza / waza-like applications. I suppose the folks you met in Hawaii are currently in a phase of training somewhat equivalent to isolated shugyo atop a mountain (in this case, a volcanic mountain, the majority of which is underwater). In any case, Chris has provided a first-hand corollary, so nothing else to add on my part re: your visit.

Michael, my earlier post says all that needs to be said regarding the legitimacy of Dan's model vis-a-vis aikido and aikido's family tree. I'm glad our exchange is relatively cordial, so I'll leave things at that. . . . though . . . what the heck is wrong with you regarding 'Vettes??


Mert
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 04:21 AM   #171
PaulF
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 64
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I would read a nugget of knowledge piled under many posts of drifted conjecture. Eventually, most of those posters left Aikiweb and even the nuggets started drying up. I think this thread was a great opportunity to provide the community some information about a basic exercise that introduces a core concept of internal power. Instead... history repeats itself.
Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I find myself in a role of defending aiki because as I previously posted, at a time when I was looking for it I experienced personal frustration reading through the obviously prejudiced posts here on Aikiweb. I wish that those behind me do not experience that frustration.
I think I'm getting there Jon, feels a bit like being invited to dinner at a dysfunctional household where the same domestic row has been running for years. We all love Aikido right? And aren't we meant to agree with our attacker's opinion and blend with them to redirect energies to a mutually non-destructive end?

I appreciate that by posting this I'm running the risk of dragging things into a meta-discussion rather than achieving anything constructive; I should probably just shut up at this point and wait and see if DH's seminar can shed light on the questions I've raised earlier.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 04:48 AM   #172
Mert Gambito
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 202
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Paul Funnell wrote: View Post
I think I'm getting there Jon, feels a bit like being invited to dinner at a dysfunctional household where the same domestic row has been running for years. We all love Aikido right? And aren't we meant to agree with our attacker's opinion and blend with them to redirect energies to a mutually non-destructive end?

I appreciate that by posting this I'm running the risk of dragging things into a meta-discussion rather than achieving anything constructive; I should probably just shut up at this point and wait and see if DH's seminar can shed light on the questions I've raised earlier.
Nov. 9 and 10? Enjoy, and take the ukemi needed to address your questions.

Mert
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 05:37 AM   #173
PaulF
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 64
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Thanks Mert, we're looking forward to it, although my questions are more around training methods/theory/pedagogy/origins than of the IHTBF variety but I'm sure I'll get some answers there too. I enjoyed Gleason's videos btw (also like what I've seen on Aunkai and ILC).
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 07:29 AM   #174
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Michael,
My comments were general and not directed at anyone in particular. It just seems that after all these years, discussions of IP and aiki are no less contentious and no more fruitful than they ever were, despite more people being forthcoming here about their internal training experiences. It's unfortunate, but not really surprising, since there is no substitute for firsthand exposure. Even then, there are different levels of exposure, and of quality of the skills demonstrated. As there is only a small number of top-level practitioners who are willing to demonstrate and teach IP and aiki, the opportunity to connect with one of them is not there for everyone.

I commend your attempts to gain the experience, truly. Having followed the discussions for quite some time, I'm also aware that some of the doors have been closed to you, and that is inconvenient, but not the end of all possibilities. Others have pointed to Bill Gleason, who does seminars and has been training with "The Aiki Guy" for several years now and lives near him -- so he likely is training intensively with him on a regular basis. Although I have not met Mr. Gleason I am pretty sure that his skill is at a point now that could give you a sense of what Daito-ryu/Aikido aiki is, and where a person can go with it in today's aikido. If he ever does a seminar in an area accessible to you, that's where I'd recommend you spend your time and money.

When you watch IP and aiki training, it will not "look like aikido" because it is a body-training set that is separate from aikido and all other martial arts. When the body/mind is developed thus, the method is then applied to aikido waza. It's the "hidden power" that drives aikido waza.

The body method itself, when applied, is "invisible." When it is demonstrated, you "don't see it." What you see is the outer visual effects of whatever martial system's techniques or waza it's expressed within. When students watched Sokaku Takeda or Morihei Ueshiba demonstrate, they were watching the outer expression of IP and aiki. When they were uke who touched Takeda or Ueshiba, they were feeling the profound effects (not just power, but also the connectivity and "ethereal" control) of aiki - though they couldn't clearly describe or explain what it felt like.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I really don't know where this was directed, but I felt obliged to respond. I am no doubt considered a detractor of "IP/IT/IS" here on AikiWeb. What may be missed is that I have tried on numerous occasions to "get hands on" with the top guys. At one point I arraigned to host a Mike Sigman workshop that fell through to no fault of his. I have attempted to attend five of Dan Harden's workshops and have not been allowed to attend. Yes. That does actually happen to some of us! Against my better judgment, I may attempt to attend his next workshop that I just saw advertised at ADV. I have attended two of Ikeda's seminars, although I was informed that this was before he was good at "IP/IT/IS" related stuff. I have also trained at one George Ledyard seminar, but again this was before he was exposed to "IP/IT/IS."

In July, I was in Hawaii and was able to train with Chris Li's group. I chose not to post about it for various reasons. It was only two occasions for a total of about four hours, plus another hour chatting with Chris. I liked Chris, not as much as the old guy Henry, who was such a character it would be hard to find a more likeable guy (Sorry, Mert. I don't know where you were! I was looking forward to meeting you.). I believe I conducted myself admirably. I knew I had a limited amount of time. I was curious and asked questions. I was attentive and respectful. I did not challenge anyone. I wanted to get "hands on" with Chris, and yet, I did not want to put the pressure of being the standard bearer of "IP/IT/IS" on him. I love Hawaii, I've been there numerous times, and I have no doubt that I will be going back. I would love to train with the Oahu group again.

That said, what they trained in was not aikido, and the skill they were attempting to cultivate was not aiki. And further, it wasn't a particularly martial expression of anything. For what it's worth, I have an Iwama style background (Why doesn't Saito's perspective and relationship with Morihei and aikido ever get mentioned in "IP/IT/IS" threads?!).

I don't want there to be any misunderstanding. I don't want it to seem like I went there and mastered the material in a matter of hours. I struggled to perform the exercises that they used; they were foreign to me, most likely taken from Chen taiji or synthesized from other Chinese arts.

Everything of quality in the martial arts, "internal" or "external," has to be felt, so please, don't hide behind "IHTBF" or attempt to hold that in place of rational discussion. . . which is all we can hope to do here.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-23-2013 at 07:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 08:16 AM   #175
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 897
United_States
Offline
Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
Nov. 9 and 10? Enjoy, and take the ukemi needed to address your questions.
I agree. Kick his ass. It's all BS. :0

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Cool Rain Productions - Since 1976, the exclusive source for "Aikido in Training" Book/DVD Series



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Morihei Ueshiba, Budo and Kamae - Part 3: More on six directions... Chris Li Websites 5 05-15-2014 11:22 AM
directions please! shadowedge General 8 12-05-2007 10:43 AM
The Path Taken, and the Path Travelled R.A. Robertson Columns 10 10-04-2007 12:05 PM
Four Directions Dojo Dedication Tadhg Bird General 8 01-21-2005 07:46 PM
Need Directions to O'sensei's memorials smbsus General 1 11-02-2003 02:26 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:29 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate