Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Internal Training in Aikido

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-26-2016, 03:26 PM   #1
woudew
Dojo: Seikokan
Location: Zwolle
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 155
Netherlands
Offline
Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

New blog of Allen on Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2016, 07:31 PM   #2
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 972
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

I have no idea what your 1 2 3 refers to. So it makes no sense to me.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2016, 10:29 PM   #3
Dan Rubin
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I have no idea what your 1 2 3 refers to. So it makes no sense to me.
Find / scroll down to: "I noticed when reading" (It's an earlier blog).
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2016, 03:19 AM   #4
woudew
Dojo: Seikokan
Location: Zwolle
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 155
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Helo Rupert,

As Dan has pointed out you will find the description in Allen's blog with the titel: "Would the real Aiki please stand up!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2016, 04:36 AM   #5
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 972
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Found it. Hmm. Your Aiki 1 and Aiki 2 kind of make sense to me except that I explain it differently. Maybe my version of Aiki 2 has two parts. I don't have an Aiki 3 because to me the 3D and spirals start to appear when you just move, so it is already in 'my' version of Aiki 1 and Aiki 2. But your explanations are still tricky to follow, as no doubt are mine. (see my link). This is because we are all trying to figure it out by ourselves. There just is no body of knowledge to turn to, as in say, music. I am learning music right now and I can turn to any book and find what I want easily. Not so Aiki.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2016, 07:01 AM   #6
woudew
Dojo: Seikokan
Location: Zwolle
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 155
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Found it. Hmm. Your Aiki 1 and Aiki 2 kind of make sense to me except that I explain it differently. Maybe my version of Aiki 2 has two parts. I don't have an Aiki 3 because to me the 3D and spirals start to appear when you just move, so it is already in 'my' version of Aiki 1 and Aiki 2. But your explanations are still tricky to follow, as no doubt are mine. (see my link). This is because we are all trying to figure it out by ourselves. There just is no body of knowledge to turn to, as in say, music. I am learning music right now and I can turn to any book and find what I want easily. Not so Aiki.
Hi Rupert,
To be complete: I am not the author of the blog. Allen Beebe is.

And about bodies of knowledge: I do think there are some living bodies of knowledge out there.
Dan Harden being one and yes, IMHO, Allen is another.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2016, 02:21 PM   #7
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 972
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Walter Oude Wesselink wrote: View Post
Hi Rupert,
To be complete: I am not the author of the blog. Allen Beebe is.

And about bodies of knowledge: I do think there are some living bodies of knowledge out there.
Dan Harden being one and yes, IMHO, Allen is another.
OK .. so there are two for starters. Do they recognise each other, can they both do the same things, do they use the same terminology, has it been written down and accepted, is it comprehensible, and can they teach it to their students? I hope so.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2016, 02:34 PM   #8
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I have no idea what your 1 2 3 refers to. So it makes no sense to me.
His # 1 is opposed forces sliding past one another (v. colliding) which is a lineal shear, something like the point of action of pair of scissor blades

His #2 is the same thing but with a distance between them. This makes a force-couple and induces a planar rotation (or moment) if the two force vectors are in the same plane, which for 2D they are by definition.

His #3 is the action of two opposite planar rotations applied at a distance through some medium (e.g. -- the human body) that can communicate the forces through stress and/or movement. This creates a torque in the medium. The torsional shear in 3D forms intertwined opposed spirals of opposite stress (one of tension, the other of compression) at right angles (Juuji) to one another. Like this:



Or like this (angles are notional):


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2016, 05:04 PM   #9
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 797
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

"When force travels in a circle..." It's all down hill from there.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2016, 05:09 PM   #10
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 972
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Eric: Clear as mud??? To me, #1 sounds like push-pull; #2 sounds like a lever; and #3 sounds like a twist. Which anyone could understand, but no use to grasp aiki. Obviously I must be missing something ... but how on earth do you expect people to understand your explanation? Have you taught anyone with this that can now do aiki?

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2016, 01:46 AM   #11
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,300
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Understand perfectly. Something I learned 30 years ago by my first sensei and reinforced by third sensei 11 years ago.

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2016, 09:17 PM   #12
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Eric: Clear as mud??? To me, #1 sounds like push-pull; #2 sounds like a lever; and #3 sounds like a twist. Which anyone could understand, but no use to grasp aiki. Obviously I must be missing something ... but how on earth do you expect people to understand your explanation? Have you taught anyone with this that can now do aiki?
Everybody complains that there are no physical mechanisms to describe it . They are there, but they are a step further into the physics, just as the thing itself is a step further into the martial interaction.

1. push-pull is force v. resistance in direct conflict, but reciprocating, alternating. Linear shear, in contrast, is the opposed forces operating simultaneously in contact but unopposed, unconflicting, undiminished -- sliding past one another at the same time -- think suri-age with the sword.

2. is not leverage because a force couple has no fulcrum, it is just pure rotation (or moment = potential rotational energy) in the plane. In fact, it is contrary to leverage principles. In leverage, the longer the fulcrum, the more mass can be moved with less applied constant force. In this mode, however, the more the radius of action reduces in the course of the action the more powerful the effect of the movement -- just as he shortening radius of the sword cut concentrates its kinetic power without adding additional applied force. By approaching as close as possible to the center of our combined interaction, I reduce and transfer my rotational energy about the center and add it to my coupled partner (conservation).

3. You are not wrong about a twist. But manipulating the lines of stress independently allows one to magnify or diminish the twist by action 90 degrees in orientation to the opponent's applied force (and their proprioceptive attention to it) in the torque, and so the action remains unperceived, and unopposed. Put more prosaically, if I meet an incoming push on my arm and relay that in a chain from, say, left hand down to right foot, it forms one of the spirals (compression). I can diminish the force in the "push" along that spiral by stretching or extending the spiral that runs from left foot to right hand (tension). If there is enough force in the push relative to the opponents stability base, this in itself can achieve kuzushi.

In real, live bodies there are biomechanical reflexive aspects of both participants that play off of these stresses and movements to create true aiki (as I understand it). One cannot do aiki on a rock.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-28-2016 at 09:20 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2017, 07:59 AM   #13
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 182
Germany
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
His # 1 is opposed forces sliding past one another (v. colliding) which is a lineal shear, something like the point of action of pair of scissor blades
I don't think so.

Allen is describing the tensigrity structure of the body, not two forces that are sliding past one another. Aiki 1 is what is happening inside the body, when there is compression that generates extension in the tissue to unify the entire body.
After this tension is translated in circular or spiral motion, aiki 2 and 3 will be produced.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2017, 04:49 PM   #14
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
I don't think so.

Allen is describing the tensigrity structure of the body, not two forces that are sliding past one another. Aiki 1 is what is happening inside the body, when there is compression that generates extension in the tissue to unify the entire body.
After this tension is translated in circular or spiral motion, aiki 2 and 3 will be produced.
Tensegrity is one structural use of this point, but it isolates the tension and compression elements and applies them independently. That is hardly the totality of it.

Aiki works with both in conjunction at any point and throughout the conjoined structures. The simultaneous presence of compression and tension at right angles to each other and diagonal to the primary opposed movements or stresses is the definition of shear. We are not saying different things -- just applying them differently. Shear is the concept you are looking for. Torsional shear is the most powerful aspect of it, in which both circular and spiral action are present.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2017, 04:56 PM   #15
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
I don't think so.

Allen is describing the tensigrity structure of the body, not two forces that are sliding past one another. Aiki 1 is what is happening inside the body, when there is compression that generates extension in the tissue to unify the entire body.
After this tension is translated in circular or spiral motion, aiki 2 and 3 will be produced.
More practically: This "sliding not colliding" is the correct mode of engagement of any strike -- sliding along in contact -- like suri age or suri otoshi (the motion is opposed on two axes), or kiri otoshi (the motion is opposed on only one axis)

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 05:47 AM   #16
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 182
Germany
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Tensegrity is one structural use of this point, but it isolates the tension and compression elements and applies them independently. That is hardly the totality of it.
The tensegrity model shows how all parts of the body are connected und react in unity, stress or tension here will cause a reaction there, this could not happen when the elements were isolated.

10 years ago I heard yoshinori kono sensei talk about this model as an analogy to describe how a connected body works when he visited germany, now it's commonly used by many poeple who work on structural Integration, fascial training or in other similar areas of bodywork.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 01:20 PM   #17
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
The tensegrity model shows how all parts of the body are connected und react in unity, stress or tension here will cause a reaction there, this could not happen when the elements were isolated. 10 years ago I heard yoshinori kono sensei talk about this model as an analogy to describe how a connected body works when he visited germany, now it's commonly used by many people who work on structural Integration, fascial training or in other similar areas of bodywork.
"Isolated" and "not connected" are not the same things in this context. In tensegrity, wires isolate tension loads, and bars isolate compressive loads. Both are connected to carry combined loads in concert -- while each remains wholly isolated from the other form of load. Shear, particularly torsional shear, is similar but less overt than a "bar and wire" tensegrity model -- the tensile and compressive forces are rigidly oriented 90 degrees apart, but they occur simultaneously in a unified field of stress that reaches throughout the structure.


In the body, things are a tad more complex, and less clear cut, but still the tendons carry tensile loads and the bones carry compressive loads, and muscles and their embodied and surrounding fascia modulate structural transitions between them. Unlike the "bar and wire" tensegrity models, most human tendons/muscles are inserted in the bones so as to form two opposed spirals. (In fact, you will see implied spirals in the tensegrity models, which are made entirely of straight rods and taut wires.) The body's structural plan is preferentially set up to resist spirally because twisting forces (torsional shears) are the most destructive to most materials and structures.

In the torso, things are exceeding complex. The whole structure operates much more plainly as a torsion tube with two regions (upper and lower) of spinal modulation whose chiefly mode of action is at right angles to the other, and in inverse curvatures. In my view of things, it is primarily the structure of the limbs (vice action of the limbs) that communicates the resulting in-yo stresses and movements (shears) that begin in the core.

For instance, with extended arms otherwise passive, but in good connection to the opponent, a slight turn of the core or even merely shifting weight from one foot to the other creates a compressive connection on one side and a tensile connection on the other (the seed of ten-chi). The combined effect is a torsion, and a torsional shear field is set up in the opponent's connected structure. If the quality of the connection is wrong -- it doesn't do much at all. Likewise, with one arm grabbed and again the limb passive but extended, a tilt of the hips that reduces the lower spine lordosis, and communicated through the arm creates a simultaneous rotation under/forward &over/back, an in-yo action/stress that also sets a shear field in the opponent.

What we do with that is art -- what does it is the medium of the art.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-04-2017 at 01:26 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 09:45 AM   #18
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 182
Germany
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

So far all this is comprehensible, setting up shear effects in ukes body is something I really use in aikido, but

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
in good connection to the opponent,
"good connection" is not a satisfactory explanation on how aiki-interaction is working.

There is more than just "connection". Okamoto Sensei for example described three important principles when he explained aiki, use of conditioned reflexes, circular motion and breath power.
Also important is the right timing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 12:12 PM   #19
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
So far all this is comprehensible, setting up shear effects in ukes body is something I really use in aikido, but

"good connection" is not a satisfactory explanation on how aiki-interaction is working.

There is more than just "connection". Okamoto Sensei for example described three important principles when he explained aiki, use of conditioned reflexes, circular motion and breath power.
Also important is the right timing.
I agree - (though in timing O Sensei had a different, perhaps merely nuanced view, and let's just say that interval (maai) means much more than just relative points in time, IMO).

However, I did not say correct connection was sufficient, but it is absolutely necessary. Connection is the gate into the opponent's structure. By correct physical connection I mean that where, for instance, compression is the active mode of a particular connection -- the outer surface of the connection is extended to take up the slack toward the opponent's center (through the limb or wherever point of connection is obtained). A tension connection must take up the slack from the opponent's center. In a wrist grab, the correct compressive connection slides the whole skin along the forearm structure until it is taut below the point of the grab. In a tension connection, the connection draws the whole skin along the forearm structure until it is taut above the point of the grab.

Good connection need not be fixed like a grab, and can slide along in a dynamic connection just as well -- though obviously requiring substantially more art to perform. The sliding engagement with a strike - literally and figuratively shears like a pair of scissor blades. It can be compressive: i.e. -- the blades (limbs) converging along their length from the initial point of contact, like kiri-otoshi. It can be tensile, like suri-age, where the blades (limbs) diverge along their length from the initial point of contact.

Canonical tenchinage uses one arm in compressive connection and the other in tension, and torques the whole body physically off its supports while interfering with structural reflexes that keep stability (see below about that). Aiki-age also uses both arms, but connects in both compressive and tensile modes simultaneously at each single point of connection. Through proper rotation of the connection that will establish one end of a torsion in each arm reaching though the body to the fixed support on the ground.

Aiki age occurs because the rotations twist along the particular spiral pathway where the golgi tendon organs and muscle spindles provoke the extensor spinal reflex (as does sankyo) putting uke up on his toes, or if in seiza rising off his seat. This reflex is the inverse to the other spiral pathway, which provokes the flexor spinal reflex (as in kotegaeshi or nikkyo), which causes the knees to involuntarily buckle. Even a simple rising hand metsubushi can be a connection without any physical contact at all, and done correctly prompts the visual flinch reflex which has a similar flexor buckling response that is still faster than the voluntary motor cortex can intervene to compensate.

Tenchinage interferes with stability once connected by applying stress (or moving -- they are equivalent) along a path that would requires uke's stabilizing action along that spiral line. But tenchinage is already potentiating the opposite reflex action along that line. IOW, when uke's voluntary effort to resist the instability occurs normally, it simply tightens the line that takes the sub-potential reflex action that tenchinage is potentiating -- and either triggers it over the edge into fully blown reflex action -- opposite to the necessary stabilizing action, and <boom> he falls down -- OR his own stability effort and reflexes get locked into mutually negating conflicting signals at the cusp and he can do little to respond at all.

FWIW I see this where kokyu expressed as in tekubi furi (the oscillations of structural tremor as in a strike termination) help keep his system fracked at that point. You can train to DO it as it happens, but it is hard to DO it when you decide to -- it is a self-reflex you can learn to trigger but not really to voluntarily use as such. YMMV

The structurally provoked reflexes are an order of magnitude faster than untrained voluntary motor action, and about three times faster than highly trained motor actions (e.g. - punching). The visual flinch flexor reflex is about six times faster than ordinary voluntary action, and about twice as fast as trained action. Or, so the literature says - but it sure works out to something like that.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-06-2017 at 12:21 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2017, 04:33 AM   #20
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 182
Germany
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Connection is the gate into the opponent's structure.
I agree with this, but I think it's not only a matter of physics.

Thank you for your detailed explaining what you mean with "good connection".
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2017, 12:26 PM   #21
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Descriptions of Ueshiba's Aiki compared to Aiki 1,2,3

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
I agree with this, but I think it's not only a matter of physics.

Thank you for your detailed explaining what you mean with "good connection".
Certainly. And I agree that understanding merely the mechanics is not understanding the stability control feedbacks in the body. Understanding the body's feedback and the sensitivity/vulnerability of the organs of the body mediating those feedbacks is of equal importance. Aiki plays on those.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 23 Peter Goldsbury Columns 6 05-18-2013 07:52 AM
Defining the word "Aiki" and looking at the phenomenon it describes. ChrisHein Language 80 11-08-2012 03:45 PM
Muneta and aiki ChrisMoses Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 17 03-22-2012 07:20 PM
Aiki Ken and Ken justu Tsunemori Techniques 62 11-29-2011 08:39 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:30 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate