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Old 05-21-2008, 07:09 AM   #1
dalen7
 
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Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Sorry if this is well known...did a search and didnt see it.

But at the beginning of class, when everyone is in sieza and they bow to O'Sensei, they mumble something (like a low chant) and stop.
Its real quick.

What are they saying?
(Translation would be nice, but I believe I will need to know & learn to say this in Japanese for my next test. I will also need to learn to count to 10 in Japanese, as well as say some basic Japanese words as well...which the latter I have on paper to learn from, and the former - numbers- I should be able to find on the internet.)

No one has told me what it is, or rather how to say the chant...and the low mumble I cant make out heads or tails what they are saying in Japanese...I would ask, but my Hungarian isnt much better.

I know it may sound strange, but the instructor doesnt necessarily go over the requirements for the test...in fact i got a requirement sheet off of another student...of which does not have the japanese text/chant for me, anyway...)

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-21-2008 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 05-21-2008, 07:36 AM   #2
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Presumably it is just shomen ni rei (正面に礼) "bow towards the front".
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:02 AM   #3
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Alastair Rae wrote: View Post
Presumably it is just shomen ni rei (正面に礼) "bow towards the front".
Thank you, I appreciate the response... they go a little bit longer though, maybe some extra courtesy being said to O'Sensei, I dont know... (Its the whole class chanting, except lower kyu)

...anyway, thanks again -

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:35 AM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Um, why don't you ask somebody in class?

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:43 AM   #5
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

We most often say "Oneigashamas" which sometimes sounds like "Oh my gosh a mouse?!", but as is apparent already, different dojos have different customs. Perhaps this is a splendid opportunity for you to work on your Hungarian and your Japanese? Good luck, let us know what you find out.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:34 PM   #6
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Um, why don't you ask somebody in class?
I like asking you guys.
See the post above mine and you will understand why.

(Im sure I will finally get it figured out...even if I dont get a translation for it...)

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:38 PM   #7
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
John Murray wrote: View Post
Perhaps this is a splendid opportunity for you to work on your Hungarian and your Japanese? Good luck, let us know what you find out.
Ill eventually find out...perhaps if I can get pen and paper and ask someone before class, that would be best - however, that is going to be a hoot to get them to even understand what it is Im trying to ask.

Its a lot easier for me to ask whenever the event Im wanting to talk about is happening... at least in this stage of the game with my language skills...
Obviously when we are in sieza it is not one of those moments.

Some people get me right away,(my Hungarian) others do not.
Those with an open mind understand a lot faster what Im trying to say...those who are not open minded, do not.

Again, what I mean is this...Hungarian has 14 vowels...you have to say precisely right (quite difficult) and those who have creativity can understand me (despite how 'butchered' the language is... and those who go into the conversation believing they will have difficulty...well they do.

This is how I have experienced it...hard to describe until you experience it yourself.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Also, if this is to be a part of the test, I was kind of hoping I would be given a paper that had the words on it.
But then again, I was never given the testing requirements either - I saw a senior student with them and got a copy from him.

So I do get around...and this board is one means in how I have gotten around in Aikido.

note: I suppose part of this post was an extended entry to the above I made to Janet to help answer her question.

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-21-2008 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:52 PM   #8
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Thank you, I appreciate the response... they go a little bit longer though, maybe some extra courtesy being said to O'Sensei, I dont know... (Its the whole class chanting, except lower kyu)

...anyway, thanks again -

Peace

dAlen
"dozo yoroshiku onegaishimasu" is a longer way of saying the one John offered.
[dozo yoroshku owe-nei-guy-she-mas]

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-21-2008 at 02:58 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-21-2008, 05:21 PM   #9
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

hay, maybe you should just chant some random thing cuz no one understands you. Man, what freedom.....

smiles

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 05-21-2008, 05:34 PM   #10
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Dalen,

How, after about a year in Hungary practising aikido, have you managed to be unable to communicate with training partners and instructor?.

I don't get it, really.

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Old 05-21-2008, 10:55 PM   #11
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Dalen,

How, after about a year in Hungary practising aikido, have you managed to be unable to communicate with training partners and instructor?.

I don't get it, really.
To each their own...our paths are all unique - so you wont be able to get it.

The question is about the prayer...not my Hungarian language skills.


But if you want to be even more surprised - I have lived in Hungary 3 years - and married to a Hungarian for 12.

Again, our paths are unique and our own...dont be quick to judge.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:00 PM   #12
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
"dozo yoroshiku onegaishimasu" is a longer way of saying the one John offered.
[dozo yoroshku owe-nei-guy-she-mas]
Bingo...dude, you have it - and I appreciate it.
Im almost 100% positive that is it.

Again, thanks...

As I said, this place has helped me out a lot in my Aikido training...Im glad its here.

Time and place for everything. All things work out the way they were meant to.
- This is more in reference to those who felt I 'should have' gotten the answer elsewhere...or 'should have' learned more Hungarian... The point as brought out before, is we dont understand why one persons path is different than ours...the responsibility we have is to enjoy the company along the way - well if we want, its there, why not take the opportunity.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:49 PM   #13
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Dalen,
May I make a suggestion for if you need to know something from your class mates.
You can ask your wife to write it down in Hungarian and bring that piece of paper to class.
I believe it would have worked for this particular case.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:58 PM   #14
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Dieter Haffner wrote: View Post
Dalen,
May I make a suggestion for if you need to know something from your class mates.
You can ask your wife to write it down in Hungarian and bring that piece of paper to class.
I believe it would have worked for this particular case.
I appreciate everyones concern and desire to help in how I should communicate at my dojo.

However...

Trust me, I am doing what needs to be done in the time it needs to be done.

The point is Im here at the moment- at Aikiweb - communicating with my fellow aikido practitioners about Aikido.

As I ask questions people may or may not want to help answer them.

So far I have had excellent responses to all my questions - and not only that, this place mixed with internet research and my aikido 3D program have helped me to advance in Aikido.

Trust me, its more than just getting a piece of paper to take with me to my aikido class - there is a whole dynamic at work here.

I would say, enough chat about my Hungarian language skills or how for me to better communicate at my dojo - thats not really the question at hand, and its something Im working on...so perhaps we can continue with the topic at hand.

Of course people are free to post what they will, its just a suggestion.

Peace

dAlen

p.s. - or I can open up a thread on the dynamics of 'dAlen' learning Aikido in Hungary.

p.s.s. - for clarification, this was NOT meant to pick on you Dieter, or anyone else.
I appreciate all your comments - Just trying to keep them to topic, as when it comes to how someone 'should' do something (even if it is a good suggestion), everyone has an idea - without knowing the dynamics, or rather without having walked in the other persons shoes. (And each person is different no matter how similar the path.

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-22-2008 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:18 AM   #15
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Dieter Haffner wrote: View Post
Dalen,
May I make a suggestion for if you need to know something from your class mates.
You can ask your wife to write it down in Hungarian and bring that piece of paper to class.
I believe it would have worked for this particular case.
I will say this in hopes to add clarity to this thread:

Dieter your point is well taken, and I hope my above post wasn't offensive...it was not meant to be, I know you were trying to help.

As I believe I have mentioned earlier in this thread, its the simple case that I thought they would have already told/taught me this after a year of being there.

Again, I would assume that someone would give me a list of requirements for testing, etc.

As mentioned, no one did and I saw a senior student with the testing requirements and asked him for a copy.

These testing requirements did not have all the info on it...
i.e, the Japanese I need to know for my test...it just says I need to know it. (Some Japanese is there, but other bits appear to be missing.)

One would have thought that it would be organized such, that all the information would be given, at some point.

But remember, I am just now learning how to do Udekimenage - which is a requirement for my 5th kyu test - after a year of being there.

Point is, there is a lack of structure which is conducive for advancing in Aikido there...thats without the issue of language.

Add the language in there and you have a whole new dynamic.

My point is not to discuss my dojo though.

I would have eventually found out - I figured I could just come to Aiki web as well, and just throw out the question and see if I could get an answer...

...and some people did try to answer, and one - I believe - hit the nail on the head. Again, thanks for that.

So that really is the point. Yes I would have gotten the answer, but the point was I directed my question to those here at Aiki web...for the time.

Again, thanks -

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:29 AM   #16
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
hay, maybe you should just chant some random thing cuz no one understands you. Man, what freedom.....

smiles
Ah, some lightness to the thread.
I agree.

good spiritual lesson in there to - the bit about no one understands 'you' - or the 'stories' I make about myself. i.e., identifying with ego.

Again, nice one, reminds me of Eckhart Tolle. (Not sure if that was the angle you were coming from.)

But it is easy to get caught up in 'stories', so to speak. (or identify with ego.)

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:19 AM   #17
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Again, I would assume that someone would give me a list of requirements for testing, etc.
Why on Earth would you assume that? Perhaps your instructor is assuming you'll find a way to ask for the info.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
As mentioned, no one did and I saw a senior student with the testing requirements and asked him for a copy.
As he probably asked for his copy.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
These testing requirements did not have all the info on it...i.e, the Japanese I need to know for my test...it just says I need to know it. (Some Japanese is there, but other bits appear to be missing.)
The perfect opportunity to ask.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
One would have thought that it would be organized such, that all the information would be given, at some point.
In our dojo test infomation is freely available but rarely is it given. The student usually has to ask to see it and can then make a hand written copy of the material.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:55 AM   #18
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote: View Post
Why on Earth would you assume that? Perhaps your instructor is assuming you'll find a way to ask for the info.

Bronson
Shows the diverse way in which we as humans think and perceive.
Its the beauty of life.

Your right, and hes right...and Im right to.
- I sound like Tevy from fiddler on the roof!
To which your reply would be, "they cant all be right" and I say, "your right"

All joking aside, the above points to the truth.

For me, if I were to have a dojo, I would make plain what it is that is expected of my students.

I know a former boss of mine, when I was a missionary for a Christian organization, said something like: "when I first got my job I made sure I had a job description of exactly what it is I would be doing...not everyone is like that and needs an exact description...but I do".

Point is, we are different, and have different expectations.

The logic is that if you will have a test, its in the interest of those giving the test to let you know what it is you will be tested on.

One could argue that they are "teaching all that needs to be known" so you dont need a requirment sheet.

Of which I would say, yes, in theory...again, walk in my shoes a mile grasshopper.
If your only receiving instruction in some of the moves weeks before the test, this is counter productive I would think.

Again, to each their own...I merely state it from the view point I have, and respect the one you have.

Sincerely, Reb Tevy err, I mean, dAlen.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Sorry to those of you who havent watched Fiddler on the Roof, but the reference from the movie still comes through and is relevant I believe.

p.s.s. - the true irony is that this thread was merely asking a question about a japanese sentence...to which, I believe, I now have the answer. - but I suppose its fine for this to turn into a philosophy thread of why dAlen thinks this and that, or does or doesnt do this or that. j/k

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-22-2008 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:23 AM   #19
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Clarification on the issue of language.

I have seen this pop up time and again - here and different places.

First I will start by the fact that Hungarian is not my native language.
Most of you Im sure know that by now - from some post it doesnt seem that clear. (Typically the post from the U.S. - but its understandable, people stateside havent really experienced another culture.)

As to the Europeans here...my hats off to you guys.
Its in your blood to speak 5 languages it seems (especially if your Dutch)

Yes my go at Hungarian has been perhaps slow...but this is not the thread, necessarily, in why that is the case...there are a lot of dynamics to this to say the least.

What I do want to point out is this.

In Hungary, especially in the country side, peoples take on things are a bit different. (Well, this goes throughout the world.)

But here is where Im going with this.

When someone is open, communication happens - regardless of the language. (Trust me, I have experienced this as well)
But it takes a certain determination and willingness to do this.

What I have experienced is that typically I will go the extra mile and expressing myself, and people, who are open will get it.

Those closed will not understand me...
Quite literally. I have said totally improper Hungarian sentences and been understood by those eager and happy that Im trying.

By those who are intimidated that they cant communicate, even the sentences that i say, which are correct, are lost. (Explanation into this...and its at several layers, but I wont go into these dynamics now.)

When someone talks to me, as an example, in Hungarian.
If I dont understand a word...they give up. They dont try to find a substitute word or way in which to try to express themselves.

On the other hand I will use hand signs, grunts, etc. to get a point across - and those open, will get it.

So when someone (wink wink) says that maybe my Sensei was waiting for me to ask for the testing requirements...I humbly suggest that the dynamics of my situation here in Hungary are a lot deeper.

And again, as mentioned, I do get what I need - as you have seen. I was merely making an observation of how I would of approached it.

As for this thread, in which I asked a simple question about a japanese sentence - again, I believe this has been successfully answered now - we have ended up covering topics on totally different subject lines.

I guess for the most part - at least this post Im making now - the topic is still good for the forum group it is in...'Language'.
Even though this line of discussion about language was not the initial intent of the post, as mentioned already.

none-the-less, this may bring more insight, and cultural view point to those stateside and elsewhere.

Because - though our paths may seem the same, each path is unique...and its beautiful...because its yours.
This is very true.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Consider this.
Its hard enough to communicate in a written language you understand... intent, emotion, tone, etc.
Let alone fully communicate in one that is not native.

The only true communication, as pointed out in the example above, is when people begin to feel.
i.e., bravely go in with the intent of understanding. As I mentioned, amazingly communication happens at this level, despite the level of ones language ability.

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-22-2008 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 05-22-2008, 04:43 AM   #20
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Again, our paths are unique and our own...dont be quick to judge.
I wasn't judging, only asking. However, after your recent posts, I'm starting to.

Regards.

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Old 05-22-2008, 05:08 AM   #21
Dieter Haffner
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
p.s.s. - for clarification, this was NOT meant to pick on you Dieter, or anyone else.
I appreciate all your comments - Just trying to keep them to topic, as when it comes to how someone 'should' do something (even if it is a good suggestion), everyone has an idea - without knowing the dynamics, or rather without having walked in the other persons shoes. (And each person is different no matter how similar the path.
No hard feelings Dalen.
I have my reasons why I did not response on topic, but I am not going to post them here. Your question has been answered and this thread can end.
If I can get my thoughts together, I will send you a PM.
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:17 AM   #22
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Hello dAlen,

This is what I do in my dojo here in Hiroshima. All the students are Japanese except one.

The students line up kneeling in seiza and I kneel facing them with my back to the Shomen (where O Sensei's picture is).

When everyone is ready, I turn to face the Shoumen and say, "Shoumen ni rei." (Bow to the Shoumen) and bow. (I do not clap beforehand.) Then I turn to the students and say "O-tagai-ni, rei." (Bow to each other: teacher to students and students to teacher). We we bow this time, we say "Onegai-shimasu" (I sometimes use the more honorific Onegai itashimasu.) That's it.

We do exactly the same at the end of training. Of course, it is not really a prayer.

I should add that when I hold a grading test, I do not have my back to the Shoumen, so the sequence of bowing is a little different. If you want me to explain it, I can do so. Otherwise send me a PM.

Best wishes,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 05-22-2008 at 05:24 AM.

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Old 05-22-2008, 05:58 AM   #23
nagoyajoe
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Dalen,

How, after about a year in Hungary practising aikido, have you managed to be unable to communicate with training partners and instructor?.

I don't get it, really.
PatÚtico y grosero. ┐No tiene cualquier cosa mejor decir?
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:11 AM   #24
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Joseph Pielech wrote: View Post
PatÚtico y grosero. ┐No tiene cualquier cosa mejor decir?


Yes. Your Spanish languaje skills still need some work. Anyway, at least you tried. Thanks for the effort.

Regards.

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Old 05-22-2008, 08:04 AM   #25
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

I want to thank Alastair, John, Dieter, Matthew, & Peter for trying to help. Also want to thank Jennifer for the sense of humor she brought to the thread with her comment.

Wont know for sure until tomorrow, but I believe Matthews version of:
dozo yoroshiku onegaishimasu, is what we say. Something rings a bell.

Also, it was nice of Peter to relay how they customarily start the beginning of class in their dojo. The bit which the Sensei says was of interest to - wasnt even thinking about that part of it at the time.

So thanks to everyone - I consider this thread to have run its course.

Peace

dAlen
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