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Old 09-04-2013, 10:04 AM   #1
dapidmini
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question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

so I've stumbled upon what I think is a great video featuring Morito Suganuma Sensei containing a warm-up routine - one that is said to be taught and used by O-Sensei - and several basic techniques.. since I don't recognize some of the movements in that video and I don't understand the purpose of those movements, I want to learn them. but the video doesn't provide explanation for those movements . I'm under the impression that the people here have much more aikido experience than me so I'd really like to ask you guys about the meaning, purpose, and the proper way of doing those movements.

this is the video I've been talking about : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZZNdTb1S6E hopefully, this isn't a repost question because I've searched using "warm up" keyword and the system returned more than 1000 results..

Last edited by dapidmini : 09-04-2013 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:52 AM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

David, I don't see anything that I haven't seen at one or another dojo over the years....Since many things are shown, why don't you describe the ones you want to know about - giving the minute/second marker where they occur would help everybody know which one(s) you have questions about.

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Old 09-04-2013, 12:02 PM   #3
dapidmini
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

@Janet: now that you point it out, I knew what I was missing from the first post.. I'm familiar with most of the taisho routine being showed here but some are new for me..

1. the funakogi undo from 2:43 is different from what we are being taught (in our dojo). Suganuma sensei (and the other shihans whose seminars I've attended) does it like in the video but we were taught to do it in a more circular motion.. since all the hombu dojo shihan does it like in the video, I suppose that is the correct way so do you think I should try to persuade my sensei to change the way we do it? does funakogi undo not have other purpose other than spiritual side?
2. the furi-tama from 3:06. is this exercise only for praying/wishing for everlasting peace on earth? one of my senpai said that this is for shaking/waking up the body and inner strength(?)
3. the movements from 3:30 to 3:40. what are those movements called? what are their purpose? Suganuma sensei (almost) isn't talking at all while doing them.
4. from what I see, I'm guessing that the movements from 3:41 is to stretch the hips and waist but are there any other purpose?
5. the movement from 3:50. I was taught to inhale (into tanden) when bending down and exhale when looking up. but I find it hard to inhale into tanden while bending down. is my method and steps correct? is this movement only for stretching?
6. in 4:46, I was also taught this kind of stretching in taichi but in taichi, I was taught to try to put the soles of my feet flat on the ground instead of letting it up like how Suganuma sensei does it because in taichi, there are parts of the kata that requires the soles of the feet to be flat on the ground. in the (aikido) dojo, should I do it like Suganuma sensei or is the taichi version ok (for stretching purposes, since the effect feels similar and I read that aikido uses similar principles as taichi)
7. the stretching routines from 9:42 are also taught in gym classes but with slight difference. in gym classes, we were taught to use our hands. why does Suganuma sensei not use his hands to pull his head/neck?
8. from 10:24, why does he grab his thumbs?

I guess those are my questions for now.. sorry for the long post

Last edited by dapidmini : 09-04-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 09-04-2013, 01:01 PM   #4
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Quote:
David Santana wrote: View Post
1. the funakogi undo from 2:43 is different from what we are being taught (in our dojo). Suganuma sensei (and the other shihans whose seminars I've attended) does it like in the video but we were taught to do it in a more circular motion.. since all the hombu dojo shihan does it like in the video, I suppose that is the correct way so do you think I should try to persuade my sensei to change the way we do it? does funakogi undo not have other purpose other than spiritual side?
Within the tradition I'm learning, (another name for it is Ame no tori fune undo) I've seen it done a little differently at different times. My guess is that outer form is less important than inner principles. This video shows it similar to how O Sensei practices it in another video. Purely for the sake of contrast (I'm making no claims about right or wrong), here's how my teacher (who learned from Tsubaki Grand Shrine in Mie-ken, Japan) does it. (@~:37)

Here's another (somewhat large) thread which has some interesting descriptions: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20439
My teacher gives his understanding there (including on Furi tama), so it would be better than anything I could offer at this point.
Hope that helps!
Take care,
Matthew

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Old 09-04-2013, 06:04 PM   #5
Janet Rosen
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

There are many variations of funakogi undo. MANY. So there is no one right way.

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:40 PM   #6
dapidmini
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
There are many variations of funakogi undo. MANY. So there is no one right way.
yes, my sensei also said that O Sensei used to teach many variations of the same techniques. but isn't the main principle supposed to be the same?

and also, the movements that intrigued me the most are the ones on 3:30 to 3:40 because I have never seen any shihans teach those movements.. anyone care to explain those movements for me? please?
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:16 AM   #7
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Quote:
David Santana wrote: View Post
yes, my sensei also said that O Sensei used to teach many variations of the same techniques. but isn't the main principle supposed to be the same?

and also, the movements that intrigued me the most are the ones on 3:30 to 3:40 because I have never seen any shihans teach those movements.. anyone care to explain those movements for me? please?
There are many flavors and interpretations of principles. You put 30 people in a learning situation over a period of years, send them out in the world as teachers, each of them is going to develop a different explanation of the explanation they heard. Each of them has 30 students....etc.

at 3:30 - 3:40....I'm kind of baffled at what kind of explanation you want. They are warm ups, large coordinated movements of large muscle groups through their range of motion. I've been at plenty of seminars where this was done. Most of what I'm seeing are either warming-up range of motion movements or some variety of stretching. Don't have names. Don't have an organizing principle.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:23 AM   #8
Janet Rosen
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Quote:
David Santana wrote: View Post
7. the stretching routines from 9:42 are also taught in gym classes but with slight difference. in gym classes, we were taught to use our hands. why does Suganuma sensei not use his hands to pull his head/neck?
Turning the question back then: Why would you do it with your hands?
Natural movement of the head and neck should not require pulling.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:51 AM   #9
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

I've been at warm ups where use of hands during up/down neck stretches was specifically discouraged since the feeling should be of lifting and stretching the long side toward the ceiling rather than compressing the short side toward the shoulder.

I've also been advised by a chiro that the forward/backward and side to side stretch are fine but that up/down is to be discouraged since it's not really in the normal range of motion for the cervical vertebrae, which makes sense if you think in terms of looking in different directions.
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:37 AM   #10
phitruong
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
There are many variations of funakogi undo. MANY. So there is no one right way.
there is only one right way to do it. do it in the shower while singing off key ..... "hi ho! hi ho! off to work we go! hi ho hi ho...."

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:58 AM   #11
Janet Rosen
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Quote:
Paul Funnell wrote: View Post
I've also been advised by a chiro that the forward/backward and side to side stretch are fine but that up/down is to be discouraged since it's not really in the normal range of motion for the cervical vertebrae, which makes sense if you think in terms of looking in different directions.
So looking at the sky for celestial navigation or at the ground for tracking animals or not stumbling over tree roots are not long-established normal human movements?

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:03 PM   #12
Michael Hackett
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Janet, having done a fair amount of both, I think Paul's chiropractor may have a point. In navigating by the stars or in tracking, the person is usually looking either up or down primarily with the eyes and with limited head movement. Maybe that accounts for why my neck hurts if I get stuck in the front row at the movies. I think that we all have a certain range of motion up and down, but we seldom get called to move to the outer limits of the range. As a nurse you would know the C spine far better than I would though so I give a lot of weight to your opinion.

Michael
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Old 09-05-2013, 03:13 PM   #13
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Sorry folks I wasn't very clear in my descriptions, the advice I was given was that side to side rotation (looking left and right) and tilting forward and back movements (looking up and down) were OK but that the stretch where one ear is lifted skyward while the other moves towards the shoulder (looking straight ahead but making the world tilt) is apparently not a great idea. Having a peculiarly big and heavy head I'm wary about this stuff!
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Old 09-05-2013, 04:23 PM   #14
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Quote:
Paul Funnell wrote: View Post
Sorry folks I wasn't very clear in my descriptions, the advice I was given was that side to side rotation (looking left and right) and tilting forward and back movements (looking up and down) were OK but that the stretch where one ear is lifted skyward while the other moves towards the shoulder (looking straight ahead but making the world tilt) is apparently not a great idea. Having a peculiarly big and heavy head I'm wary about this stuff!
Ah. Thank you for clarifying. I honestly don't know... I think a certain amount of range of motion is needed that way in the neck muscles but I could see where it would be easy to overdo it and put undue stress on upper cervical vertebrae. I think I'll do some research!

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Old 09-05-2013, 04:26 PM   #15
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Janet, having done a fair amount of both, I think Paul's chiropractor may have a point. In navigating by the stars or in tracking, the person is usually looking either up or down primarily with the eyes and with limited head movement. Maybe that accounts for why my neck hurts if I get stuck in the front row at the movies. I think that we all have a certain range of motion up and down, but we seldom get called to move to the outer limits of the range. As a nurse you would know the C spine far better than I would though so I give a lot of weight to your opinion.
Getting stuck in ANY position is no good. Normal ROM should accommodate up and down MOVEMENT with no damage.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:08 PM   #16
dapidmini
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

Quote:
Paul Funnell wrote: View Post
Sorry folks I wasn't very clear in my descriptions, the advice I was given was that side to side rotation (looking left and right) and tilting forward and back movements (looking up and down) were OK but that the stretch where one ear is lifted skyward while the other moves towards the shoulder (looking straight ahead but making the world tilt) is apparently not a great idea. Having a peculiarly big and heavy head I'm wary about this stuff!
no gym (or any) teacher has ever mentioned it to me before. this does make sense. thank you Paul. I read somewhere before that moving/stretching any part of your body (i.e: moving the ear towards the shoulder) and making those cracking sound is not good..

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Turning the question back then: Why would you do it with your hands?
Natural movement of the head and neck should not require pulling.
I've always thought stretches are to stretch our ROM slightly more than we normally do so that for example when our partner apply a technique/pin on us, our muscles and joints are not too stiff?

Last edited by dapidmini : 09-05-2013 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 09-05-2013, 11:59 PM   #17
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Re: question about warm-up (taisho) routine?

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David Santana wrote: View Post
I've always thought stretches are to stretch our ROM slightly more than we normally do so that for example when our partner apply a technique/pin on us, our muscles and joints are not too stiff?
Modern exercise physiology holds that prior to activity, one should do warming up of muscles via large movements through range of motion and that stretching of cold muscles is not helpful and may be harmful in promoting microtears in muscle fibers, so stretching is best done after activity.

And based on those of us who have arthritis, it is indeed movement through normal range of motion that gets us past the stiffness that comes with waking up in the morning or after other prolonged inactivity, not going directly into stretching.

There are folks who really are used to the stretching and swear by it. Doesn't do a thing for me. YMMV so if it works for you, go for it!

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