Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-07-2002, 04:44 AM   #1
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
The purpose of aikido?

Hi all, I don't tend to be too regular on Aikiweb now'days, but from the useful info I've had in the past I thought I should show you all this. I got it from a senior instructor, scribbled on a bit of paper (it was hard to read, 2 words may be wrong - also I don't think they'll be any copyright slapped on it),
Ian
Anyway;

===================

INTERVIEW WITH MINORU MOCHIZUKI SENSEI

To tell the truth, I got into trouble with Uyeshiba sensei after my trip to Europe thirty years ago.

When I got back I told him "I went overseas to spread aikido and had shiai matches with many different people who were there. From that experience I realised that with only the techniques of aikido it was very difficult to win. In those cases I instinctively reverted to judo or kendo techniques and was able to come out on top of the situation. No matter how I thought about it I couldn't avoid the conclusion that the techniques of Daito Ryu Jujitsu were not enough to decide the match.

Wrestling and others with that sort of experience are no put off by being just thrown down and rolling away, they get right back up and move in for some grappling, and the French style of boxing is far above the hand and foot techniques of karate. I'm sure that aikido will become more and more international and worldwide in the future, but if it does, its technical range will have to expand to be able to overcome any sort of enemy fully.

Having said all this, sensei said to me, "all you talk about is winning and losing!"

I responded "But one must be strong and win, and now that aikido is being spread throughout the world, I think that it is necessary for it to be theoretically and technically able to defeat any challenge."

"Your whole thinking is mistaken. Of course it is wrong to be weak but that is not the whole story. Don't you realise that it is no longer the age where we can even talk about whether we are winning or losing? It is the age of ‘love' now, are you unable to see that?" This he told me and with those eyes of his!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2002, 10:10 AM   #2
AikiAlf
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 47
Offline
Straight Face

this is really a problem/issue for me. I started in aikido attracted to its philosophy. I see more concern about the jutsu and its "effectiveness". How many discussions are about the "superiority" of other MA over aikido or vice versa?

Is Aikido true budo because true budo is protection and love? Is always winning not fighting? OR is aikido true Budo because aikido-ka can kick the butts of anyone anywhere (please don't bother answering this).

why does it bother Aikidoka to think about losing? (againt Muay Thai fighters on top of everything?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2002, 10:52 AM   #3
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Something I've never understood. Why is it always one or the other? How come we can't have a fully effective martial art and maintain the spiritual aspects of the art? I've never thought the two were mutually exclusive.

If Ueshiba had gotten has ass whupped more often than not we'd never have heard of Aikido. It was his effectiveness which allowed him to develop his art. There's really no way around it. On the other hand, I believe it was because he seemingly offered something more than just a MA which allowed Aikido to grow like it has.

Seems to me like both fit together just fine.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2002, 11:34 AM   #4
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
Why do Aikido?

If you grow up in a world of hatred and violence, but you have a chance to affect a change by strength or by friendship (love), which one is the stronger more lasting over time?

Certainly conquering foes or adversarys with strength is quite the manly beastial instinct that appears to be held in high regard, but there will always be those who are physically superior and will want to take the material wealth that you have gained from strength.

The application of love for your religious god that gives you the spiritual strength, verses the western version of carrying love and friendship to all living creatures is an enigma of collossal perportions because we have not yet found the peace of our being alligned with love of our god.

I have nothing against any person trying to find the peace of their own personal religion, or being helped in their struggle to find a way to polish the stone of their own inner peace, but please, please, don't ever force me to be like you, pray like you, or believe what you believe.

It is the end effect of us both finding the inner peace of love of our being from practicing our religion that lets us be friends and accepts each separate human being for what they are .... individuals.

Once you have become alligned with the peace of your god, and me with mine, the winning and losing aspect becomes unimportant for the fueling of one's ego to be the greatest fighter of all time.

We find that Aikido practice is the joy of having skills, using the inner energy not the physical strength of muscular tension, and that it does become a journey to entertain the spiritual aspects of our inner being along with maintaining a healthy physical body.

Aikido is more than just winning or losing, it is a building block of living, learning, and a guide to find the best qualities in ourselves and others.

So, yeah, Aikido is a tenent of love, as much as it is a martial art, as much as it not any of these things.

If you truly practice, question, seek answers to the underlying principles of each technique, but your heart tells you not to use the root applications of to injure or kill, you have begun to see the roots of what O'Sensei calls LOVE.

It is not the mushy sexual Love, but the love of a parent, or grandparent that would give their life for their children or grandchildren, yet there is the guidance to introduce lessons for life, and direct them in the matter of attaining spiritual balance to have a happy productive life.

I know this is rather long, but like anything worthwhile, as in practicing Aikido, even if you do other martial arts, the long term affects of Aikido are more beneficial.

Physical strength, the numbers of your victorys fade with time as others overcome your ego, your marks of accomplishments.

Love, on the other hand, seems to get stronger the more it is exhibited.

So when you practice for the love of Aikido, it is not because you love your training partner, it is because you love to practice Aikido.

The mistake of westerners who reach further than the message was intended to go, are succumbing to emotions. Let them go.

Be at Aikido because you love Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2002, 12:49 PM   #5
AikiAlf
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 47
Offline
Hi Erik.

Can you have both? To prove that Aikido is an entirely effective MA you would have to spend all your time demonstrating its effectiveness over the other MA. How do you go about doing that?

And that's totally ignoring the point that the practicioner, not the Martial Art, is who fights/fails etc.

It's only been a few decades since O Sensei died and by now he's "O'Sensei" and there's enough people willing to state that the stories are exaggerated, or not true at all, that Aikido is a circular excuse for a martial art, that "Paddy O'sensei" was really lucky because he never met his Mua-haha-y Thai nemesis or something else. Or that DR, YR, AJJ, BJJ , WJJ is the real thing and not Aikido, etc.

right now I'm confused. The more I read the more I am confused about the purpose of Aikido

I think too much I guess.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2002, 01:17 PM   #6
Rolf Granlund
Dojo: Shinsuikan/Genoa, Ohio
Location: Toledo, OH
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 31
United_States
Offline
Does Aikido have to be martially effective to be of value? Have people changed as a result of their training?

Yes, I believe that an art can be spiritual and effective. But that really doesn't speak to the purpose of Aikido. Although coming from a beginner, I would say that the purpose of Aikido is what you bring to it. Ask yourself why you started. Now ask yourself if that reasoning still holds true.

Like most things in this world, the meaning of something is (and should be)left up to the individual. But a good starting point would be to read what Ueshiba thought the purpose was and then go from there.

With Respect,
Rolf Granlund
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 06:35 AM   #7
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Yep, I'd go with these views. I didn't give any bias at the start since it was just a presentation of information. I've used aikido several times and it was far more useful than any other martial art I could have used because it did not injure the other person. Competition is about fighting an opponent, whereas in real situations there is no real 'opponent', and making one of somebody else makes you less likely to be open to non-violent methods.

For me aikido not only has physical use, but it relaxes me during a potential conflict so that the chance of non-aggessive conflict resolution is that much higher.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 08:47 AM   #8
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,703
United_States
Offline
IMHO, the question may best be served by asking what is your personal purpose for training in Aikido? Your purpose will dictate your training more than the purpose O'Sensei had or anyone else.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 08:47 AM   #9
Kenn
Dojo: looking for a new one
Location: Simi Valley California
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikido?

Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
Once you have become alligned with the peace of your god, and me with mine, the winning and losing aspect becomes unimportant for the fueling of one's ego to be the greatest fighter of all time.
Bruce, you assume much with this statement...the assumption of the existence of a God. The assumption that there aren't multiple Gods...and the assumption that everyone has a personal "God"

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 08:49 AM   #10
Kenn
Dojo: looking for a new one
Location: Simi Valley California
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola (AikiAlf) wrote:
right now I'm confused. The more I read the more I am confused about the purpose of Aikido

I think too much I guess.
Yes, you think too much, in this case. The purpose of Aikido, for YOU is totally subjective. What do YOU want that purpose to be. Aikido is many things to many people. Decide what YOU want to get out of it...and then just train train train.

Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 08:51 AM   #11
Kenn
Dojo: looking for a new one
Location: Simi Valley California
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Lynn, wondering if you are seeing this,...testing testing

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 09:28 AM   #12
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
It seems to me, at least, that the "purpose" of aikido can be as varied as the "purpose" of electricity. It depends on how a person uses it...

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 09:38 AM   #13
Genex
 
Genex's Avatar
Dojo: Warrington Seishin Kai
Location: Warrington, England
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 155
Offline
Smile

I would say that the purpose of aikido is up to the individual, my purpose of doing aikido is for self defence and also personal confidence knowing that if a situation ever arose where i would have to protect, myself or my wife and unborn child i would be able too.

other then that its good because i get out of the house a couple of times a week after work instead of sitting on my a$$ and watching tv and i'm learning so i'm happy

pete

like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick. - The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy on the Pan-galactic Gargleblaster!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 09:59 AM   #14
erikmenzel
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
erikmenzel's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidojo Leiderdorp
Location: Leiden
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 530
Netherlands
Offline
Talking Aikido = electricity

Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
It seems to me, at least, that the "purpose" of aikido can be as varied as the "purpose" of electricity.
Hmmm, this made my (twisted) mind come up with a new form of punishment:

the aiki-chair


Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 10:13 AM   #15
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
Cool monopoly

I think the purpose of aikido in America is to get a high rank as quickly as possible, along with a bunch of other unrelated degrees, certificates, acreditations, etc. Then, try to get lots of students and dojos under your control and make them all take lots of tests, pay lots of testing fees, have them manage your school for you, and make them go to costly seminars where you can peddle gi, weapons, books, video tapes and autographed photos of yourself. Continue until you are rich and famous. Then, you win!

P.S. And here's an extra money-making tip for those who are really interested in winning the game. Make students pay extra fees for different classes, such as the "easy-going aikido class," the "hardcore macho aikido class," weapons class, ki-training class, history of aikido class, etc. And if they don't take all those classes, don't promote them!

Last edited by mike lee : 08-08-2002 at 10:33 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 11:07 AM   #16
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Hi Alfonso!

I just wanted to point out something in your comment. Notice how the thought process became absolute? That's not how I see effective. To me, when I compare our art/my skills to say Muay Thai I look at things to see where I may be weak and what sort of things I could expect and should be better prepared to deal with. In the case of Muay Thai, it's short strikes, low kicks and physical conditioning, for example. If by comparing our art to another art I can better understand our weaknesses and improve them, I think it's a good thing. I really don't think our art can only be expressed through the official technical curriculum and practice methodology.

The problem with these discussions, is that it's all or nothing. You are either a bad ass or a loving harmonious entity of peace. The people I've known and respected in this art always had some degree of both and subsequently some degree of balance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 11:14 AM   #17
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Re: monopoly

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
I think the purpose of aikido in America is to get a high rank as quickly as possible, along with a bunch of other unrelated degrees, certificates, acreditations, etc. Then, try to get lots of students and dojos under your control and make them all take lots of tests, pay lots of testing fees, have them manage your school for you, and make them go to costly seminars where you can peddle gi, weapons, books, video tapes and autographed photos of yourself. Continue until you are rich and famous. Then, you win!

P.S. And here's an extra money-making tip for those who are really interested in winning the game. Make students pay extra fees for different classes, such as the "easy-going aikido class," the "hardcore macho aikido class," weapons class, ki-training class, history of aikido class, etc. And if they don't take all those classes, don't promote them!
Mike, I'm curious if you could provide me some examples. Virtually every full-time Aikidoist I've known probably struggles to pay their bills. Admittedly, I don't know what someone like Tohei, Yamada or Saotome brings in but the vast majority I know are neither rich nor famous. Seagal is rich and famous but I don't think he did it this way. Other than him, I know of one person who runs a very materially structured enterprise and I can think of a few who do ok on the self-help seminar type circuit but most of them are relatively unknown all things considered.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 12:36 PM   #18
AikiAlf
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 47
Offline
Quote:
Notice how the thought process became absolute? That's not how I see effective
uhmm , could you elaborate a bit about that?

I apologize for venting on you guys. I appreciate the different perspectives offered here.

still sorting things out..
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 03:04 PM   #19
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola (AikiAlf) wrote:
uhmm , could you elaborate a bit about that?
I'll try. Typically, when we have this sort of conversation it's an all or nothing thing. Either Aikido beats Muay Thai 100% of the time or it's pig poop! Most processes, I can't think of any off the top of my head, are not 100%. For instance, we have an effective transportation system, yet, even with that effective transportation system 40,000 people will die this year because of it. Effective sports teams win 60% of the time. Could we be more effective? Should we try? Possibly.

Of course, I'm only talking about effective in a martial sense in this case.

To me, I've always unclear as to why we can't compare ourselves to other arts. They have things to teach us and we can learn from them and adapt to them. I've never thought, nor believed, that Aikido was so narrow an art that it could only be ikkyo, nikyo or whatever.

Did that help?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2002, 04:54 PM   #20
AikiAlf
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 47
Offline
Quote:
Did that help?
yeah. I think I see what you mean. What gets my goat about those conversations is precisely that the situation is proposed as if Aikido were only Ikkyo - nikkyo.

Can you "do" aikido against elbows knees and close attacks? I think you sure can. Would it look like kihon ? Not as I understand kihon. Surely people who practice more than I can come up with names for techniques in that situation.

Can a mugger beat me? - maybe

Can a mugger beat O Sensei -???? what sort of mind worries about this.

OK. I won't bore you guys with this anymore.

I'll stay with finding my own purpose in doing Aikido.

thanks
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2002, 03:35 AM   #21
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
Cool nukes

One has to read a little bit between the lines here to truely understand O'Sensei's position. He lived through the dropping of two nuclear bombs on his homeland. Following a long and bloody war, the total destruction in one instant of Nagasaki and Hiroshima had a huge impact on the minds of the Japanese people.

It was also a historic event -- one that showed the futility of war, especially one waged with weapons of mass destruction.

O'Sensei surely realized that the entire concept of fighting, right down to the martial arts level, had to be re-evaluated.

The genius of O'Sensei was that he developed an art that could help change man's thinking about their relations with one another.

This is why O'Sensei got so upset when people dragged mere matters of martial effectiveness into the discussion.

The ultimate purpose of aikido is not to be able to become the world's ultimate fighting machine -- although that could be one possibilty. The purpose is to bring peace to men, and to teach them about the futility of fighting.

Last edited by mike lee : 08-10-2002 at 04:38 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2002, 08:28 AM   #22
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
Re: nukes

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Following a long and bloody war, the total destruction in one instant of Nagasaki and Hiroshima had a huge impact on the minds of the Japanese people.

It was also a historic event -- one that showed the futility of war, especially one waged with weapons of mass destruction.

O'Sensei surely realized that the entire concept of fighting, right down to the martial arts level, had to be re-evaluated.
If I remember correctly, his first "vision" of being bathed in a golden light after the unarmed "duel" with a swordsman happened in 1925. I think this was when he came up with the thought of budo encompassing the notion of protecting and not harming the attacker.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2002, 09:46 AM   #23
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
Based on conversations with several Japanese shihans, the war served as a very major reinforcer of that vision.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2002, 09:51 AM   #24
tedehara
 
tedehara's Avatar
Dojo: Evanston Ki-Aikido
Location: Evanston IL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 826
Offline
Exclamation The Purpose of Aikido

The purpose of aikido is found in the name itself. Ai means union or harmony, Ki means the universal spirit or life force and Do means path or way. A standard translation would be The Way to Union with the Universal Life Force.

In the Ki Society, this concept is expressed in the motto:
Quote:
Ki Society Motto:

Let us have a universal spirit that loves and protects all creation and helps all things grow and develop. To unify mind and body and become one with the universe is the ultimate purpose of my study.
If you're doing anything else than Aikido, then you're just wading in the shallow end of the pool, thinking you're learning how to swim.

I know this is a harsh sounding judgement, but it's the one that I've developed for myself.

Last edited by tedehara : 08-10-2002 at 09:58 AM.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2002, 10:12 AM   #25
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Based on conversations with several Japanese shihans, the war served as a very major reinforcer of that vision.
Oh, I'm sure it did. I was just clarifying that World War II and the dropping of the atomic bombs were not what originally brought on the founder's aikido philosophy of "loving protection."

As far as breaking apart the term "aikido" into its three characters, I've also heard that the term "aiki" as a term in and of itself far before the founder was even born. Some of the "original" definitions of the term that I have seen include things like "total dominance" and have no connection to things like "universal life force."

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why do some people hate Aikido? Guilty Spark General 609 12-29-2010 04:29 AM
Aikido: The learning of natural movement Mike Hamer General 517 12-12-2006 03:15 PM
Philippine ranking and other stories aries admin General 27 06-27-2006 04:27 AM
Proposta organização do Aikido Portugal kimusubi0 Portuguese 0 05-03-2004 03:26 AM
Propostarganização do Aikido em Portugal kimusubi0 French 0 05-01-2004 02:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:47 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate