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Old 07-11-2014, 09:55 AM   #1
Asou
 
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Irimi Nage

Hi guys, I want to ask about the elusive Irimi Nage

How do you train your irimi nage in your Dojo? Do you try to faceplant your uke to the mat, then wait for them to recover and do the cut a la hombu dojo? Or do you do simple iriminage, just enter, hold the head, then cut? Or both? My dojo's training is like the 1st form of this clip (00:14 - 00:20), enter hold the head, and cut. and the second form (00:34 - 00:44), enter, hold the head, tenkan with it, and cut down.

When holding the head, which one do you prefer? Hold the side of neck? Grab the gi? And why?

Currently, in my dojo, we're trying to try the third form of that clip, but it's really hard to push the uke off-balance till they almost kneel to the ground like that, how do you do it? Is it because of the compliance of the uke? Because, the first time we try it, the movement doesn't feel natural at all, especially at 00:54 where after nage took uke's balance by trying to faceplanting him, uke still do a two step forward to nage's side and getting ready to be thrown. One of my sensei told me that in order to achieve that, the uke must "know the choreography" or in other words, it's a specific step that uke must learn in order to be thrown into a high fall like that. Hence, explaining the extra steps. Is that true? What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long questions Irimi nage is my favorite technique, so I want to learn more. Thank you
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:55 AM   #2
Cliff Judge
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
Hi guys, I want to ask about the elusive Irimi Nage

How do you train your irimi nage in your Dojo? Do you try to faceplant your uke to the mat, then wait for them to recover and do the cut a la hombu dojo? Or do you do simple iriminage, just enter, hold the head, then cut? Or both? My dojo's training is like the 1st form of this clip (00:14 - 00:20), enter hold the head, and cut. and the second form (00:34 - 00:44), enter, hold the head, tenkan with it, and cut down.

When holding the head, which one do you prefer? Hold the side of neck? Grab the gi? And why?

Currently, in my dojo, we're trying to try the third form of that clip, but it's really hard to push the uke off-balance till they almost kneel to the ground like that, how do you do it? Is it because of the compliance of the uke? Because, the first time we try it, the movement doesn't feel natural at all, especially at 00:54 where after nage took uke's balance by trying to faceplanting him, uke still do a two step forward to nage's side and getting ready to be thrown. One of my sensei told me that in order to achieve that, the uke must "know the choreography" or in other words, it's a specific step that uke must learn in order to be thrown into a high fall like that. Hence, explaining the extra steps. Is that true? What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long questions Irimi nage is my favorite technique, so I want to learn more. Thank you
I don't know if you mean to use the word "push" there, but that's not how I would describe what Tissier is doing and it is not going to work. So that would be your problem.

If you make a smooth enough entry to uke's rear, without disrputing their attack too much, you can *tip them over* towards the corner where they have no leg. Then you drop your own weight and turn, and they come along with you. It is actually really easy to just dump them right down onto the mat - the difficult part is keeping control of them as they come around - you don't want them to turn INTO you and tackle, and you don't want them to stand back up before they are right where you want them.

Anyway, if it helps

1) make a clean entry and get behind uke
2) tip uke just a bit, she should be connected and off-balance
3) move yourself
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Old 07-11-2014, 03:26 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: Irimi Nage

I have never been a fan of the faceplant for two reasons: 1) it relies on a trained uke to keep their legs under their center and pop up, which to me is highly unnatural and 2) frankly if I faceplant somebody the last thing I want is to get them even partway up again; I'm going for an immobilizing pin. When I was training at a dojo that used that as their ura version of iriminage, as uke I never could learn the preferred response. Nage would drive me down and forward, and it was Hello, Mat. They would either start dragging me back or or want me to start gathering myself up, neither of which I found very sensible.
I like either the short, direct form, or a less vertical form of the turning version - which is called kokyunage in dojo with Tohei Sensei lineage - where uke is essentially directed forward and around nage (the initial unbalancing is not pulling uke but drawing uke ever so slightly forward onto his front foot so the circle is forward-moving), uke describing a larger circle around nage's spiraling smaller circle, and it is the "opening door" at the outside hip that allows uke's hips to enter but not his upper body.
My preferred hand position is gently attached to uke's head; I find at shoulder is is too easy to interfere with my own movement by inadvertendly pushing down on uke - eliciting resistance - and at neck it tends to make uke tense and resistive.

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Old 07-11-2014, 05:30 PM   #4
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Re: Irimi Nage

I couldn't get the clip to play, but I think I get what you mean by the various styles. I have practiced all of them at one point or another. Personally, I prefer to keep it simple and not to do the big down and up movement. However, since you want to learn it, I think Cliff hit the nail on the head. You should never push your uke. Get in the same position that you would for your regular irimi-nage (i.e. all the way behind your uke, not slightly in front where they can elbow you) and rather than propelling them forward, try to take them backwards by stepping out and dropping straight down. I'll repeat that: Don't do a circular movement, just step out and drop down. If your uke ends up on the mat and can't get up again, that's their problem. If they are able to receive it, then they will circle around and it will look like you have done a circular movement. This is why Janet was saying that the technique is dependent on uke maintaining their legs under them. An unpracticed uke will end up on the mat every time, and being able to receive this technique is an art in and of itself.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:46 AM   #5
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Re: Irimi Nage

thanks for the kind responses let's discuss

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I have never been a fan of the faceplant for two reasons: 1) it relies on a trained uke to keep their legs under their center and pop up, which to me is highly unnatural and 2) frankly if I faceplant somebody the last thing I want is to get them even partway up again; I'm going for an immobilizing pin. When I was training at a dojo that used that as their ura version of iriminage, as uke I never could learn the preferred response. Nage would drive me down and forward, and it was Hello, Mat. They would either start dragging me back or or want me to start gathering myself up, neither of which I found very sensible.
I like either the short, direct form, or a less vertical form of the turning version - which is called kokyunage in dojo with Tohei Sensei lineage - where uke is essentially directed forward and around nage (the initial unbalancing is not pulling uke but drawing uke ever so slightly forward onto his front foot so the circle is forward-moving), uke describing a larger circle around nage's spiraling smaller circle, and it is the "opening door" at the outside hip that allows uke's hips to enter but not his upper body.
My preferred hand position is gently attached to uke's head; I find at shoulder is is too easy to interfere with my own movement by inadvertendly pushing down on uke - eliciting resistance - and at neck it tends to make uke tense and resistive.
In our dojo, we never study this "faceplant" technique, that's why, our response is a bit erratic as an uke. First time we try this, it's like that, we're not trying to regain our balance by pop back up and moving up. Well, okay, we tried to but not while moving forward, it feels unnatural is all. This is why we're thinking that this is just choreography.

Still, it's beautiful to watch.

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I don't know if you mean to use the word "push" there, but that's not how I would describe what Tissier is doing and it is not going to work. So that would be your problem.

If you make a smooth enough entry to uke's rear, without disrputing their attack too much, you can *tip them over* towards the corner where they have no leg. Then you drop your own weight and turn, and they come along with you. It is actually really easy to just dump them right down onto the mat - the difficult part is keeping control of them as they come around - you don't want them to turn INTO you and tackle, and you don't want them to stand back up before they are right where you want them.

Anyway, if it helps

1) make a clean entry and get behind uke
2) tip uke just a bit, she should be connected and off-balance
3) move yourself
Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I couldn't get the clip to play, but I think I get what you mean by the various styles. I have practiced all of them at one point or another. Personally, I prefer to keep it simple and not to do the big down and up movement. However, since you want to learn it, I think Cliff hit the nail on the head. You should never push your uke. Get in the same position that you would for your regular irimi-nage (i.e. all the way behind your uke, not slightly in front where they can elbow you) and rather than propelling them forward, try to take them backwards by stepping out and dropping straight down. I'll repeat that: Don't do a circular movement, just step out and drop down. If your uke ends up on the mat and can't get up again, that's their problem. If they are able to receive it, then they will circle around and it will look like you have done a circular movement. This is why Janet was saying that the technique is dependent on uke maintaining their legs under them. An unpracticed uke will end up on the mat every time, and being able to receive this technique is an art in and of itself.
thanks, those are good tips, I think I will try that next time on the mat. I can imagine what are you saying (the corner where they have no leg), push etc. From Cliff's tips and Robin's, I was trying some mental images of getting behind uke directly, grab both uke's shoulders with both of my hands, then turn it a bit (left or right, but let's choose right), followed immediately by a step back with my right foot while dropping my weight and center, finalized by guiding uke's shoulders diagonally down. Phew, I hope she's down and automatically rotating!

Well, if that's applicable on Monday, I still have so many things to learn lol, how to keep the initial kuzushi connected, knowing when is the time to cut, etc.

And I'm sorry I admit I misunderstood from the movie (it looks like he's pushing with arms), I forgot that turning power is generated from the center/hara.
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Old 07-12-2014, 05:24 AM   #6
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Re: Irimi Nage

Fwiw, at my dojo we traditionally wait for uke to get back up so we can knock them down again...
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Old 07-12-2014, 05:43 AM   #7
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Re: Irimi Nage

Yay! Irimi Nage thread!

Are you just talking about shomen iriminage and not irimi tsuki or sokumen irimi nage?

Watched the Tiisier video. Granted this is just a video clip from the internet...but since its instructional I'll make a couple comments;

1) I would like to see uke being off-balanced more in the initial movement, so that uke isn't just standing there waiting, completely in balance, for nage to walk around behind.

2) I like to see a little more follow-through on the throws. My rule of thumb is, for it to be iriminage, nage has to step both behind and to the far corner, of uke's center line. What Tissier is doing seems almost more like a kokyunage.

I like his arm movement, I kind of copy off that. Bringing the arm up high like that brings uke into nage's body better - more depth. Iriminage is a throw done with the tricep area and chest area, and moving the arm this way helps facilitate that orientation, and greater surface area contact.

The 'face plant' maneuver: Like everyone said, its choreographed. I've been uke for some talented instructors who do that variation, and its all I can do just to keep myself in control of nage. I've heard explanations as to why uke should keep his feet churning and stay close to nage, but if you have to provide a story why uke is acting a specific way, you lose me.

I don't have a preference as to grabbing the side of the neck or collar. I feel like it doesn't matter so long as uke is physically connected to your body, and your body is upright.

I like irimi nage as well - all variations of the technique.

I guess a follow-up question from me would be - who focuses on off balancing uke via their head and who does it via their upper body?

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Old 07-12-2014, 06:49 AM   #8
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Yay! Irimi Nage thread!

Are you just talking about shomen iriminage and not irimi tsuki or sokumen irimi nage?

Watched the Tiisier video. Granted this is just a video clip from the internet...but since its instructional I'll make a couple comments;

1) I would like to see uke being off-balanced more in the initial movement, so that uke isn't just standing there waiting, completely in balance, for nage to walk around behind.

2) I like to see a little more follow-through on the throws. My rule of thumb is, for it to be iriminage, nage has to step both behind and to the far corner, of uke's center line. What Tissier is doing seems almost more like a kokyunage.

I like his arm movement, I kind of copy off that. Bringing the arm up high like that brings uke into nage's body better - more depth. Iriminage is a throw done with the tricep area and chest area, and moving the arm this way helps facilitate that orientation, and greater surface area contact.

The 'face plant' maneuver: Like everyone said, its choreographed. I've been uke for some talented instructors who do that variation, and its all I can do just to keep myself in control of nage. I've heard explanations as to why uke should keep his feet churning and stay close to nage, but if you have to provide a story why uke is acting a specific way, you lose me.

I don't have a preference as to grabbing the side of the neck or collar. I feel like it doesn't matter so long as uke is physically connected to your body, and your body is upright.

I like irimi nage as well - all variations of the technique.

I guess a follow-up question from me would be - who focuses on off balancing uke via their head and who does it via their upper body?
Hi, Adam! Onegaishimasu! Well, there are hundreds of videos if you'd like to see uke to give extra momentum to nage by attacking with intents with shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, or maybe a 4 minutes full of flying bodies perhaps?

The reason why I choose a static one is because it's the hardest to unbalance/no momentum. Additionally, it also looks like what we've tried in our dojo. Haha, eventually, the uke get tired of attacking and the nage also got tired of constant failing to unbalance , so the uke just stand still, pretending a body posture after an attack . Well, my logic is: if I can unbalance this static stance, then I should be able to unbalance an uke attacking with intent (considering the irimi is perfect though). So, we get past the irimi stage, directly to the faceplant stage.

Yes, I also find the way he is using his hand to execute a throw quite awesome. I think he uses his forehand to your side of your head just a little bit on top of your ears, then cut down diagonally to throw uke, while stepping forward with the same foot as the hand that executes the throw (if throwing with right arms, right foot comes forward). Try it on your head, very easy to topple a balance from that point, ya? Kinda like tenchi nage.

Well, if it's a choreography, at least maybe we can practice the second form (00:34 - 00:44), not the third "faceplant" form". The faceplant version is impressive and beautiful, maybe useful for a demo, or when jiyu waza (just faceplant uke without throw). This is just for study purpose, In our dojo, we believe every movement has a purpose to serve. That's why we're a bit experimenting. Y'know, why this, why that, how does it feel? Natural or not, blah blah..
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Old 07-12-2014, 02:57 PM   #9
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Yay! Irimi Nage thread!

I guess a follow-up question from me would be - who focuses on off balancing uke via their head and who does it via their upper body?


My answer is... yes...by which I mean....when I first enter, I want to draw uke forward so he is slightly weighted onto/in front of his front foot - so I guess that would be initial entry is balance break via upper body, although I am considering it simply attaching to uke and adjusting my structure rather than pushing uke forward. Once I start to move, I try to keep a balance in my own structure between my hand which is attached to uke's head and slowly guiding it towards my opposite shoulder - and my other hand which is attached to uke's arm and using that connection to get his center past my center...however, in practice, I've been getting feedback from partners sensitive enough to notice that I tend to overplay the hand-at-head.
So back to try another day :-) Fortunately what we call shomenuchi kokyunage (most folks' iriminage ura version but without the down-to-mat faceplant thingie) is part of "8 basics" so we do it pretty much every class at least four times each!

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-12-2014, 05:30 PM   #10
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Re: Irimi Nage

I like Janet's way of explaining what I/we do. Enter on uke's attack side, usual thing and we try to place the entering foot ON the imaginary centerpost of the system's rotation (it generally ends up just behind uke's inside foot), then rotate uke forward witht he arm which attacked trapped and led around in front of uke in a descending arc, while the other hand is somewhere (unimportant where, just somewhere) over uke's head/neck/shoulders giving them a gentle down impetus.

Uke steps forward, doesn't like either the forward or the downward or both, and their back pulls them up and that's when the rotation reverses and we... if we're in a good mood, throw to the horizon line, and if not, throw at our feet in a sort of crumpling spine lock situation if slow, and a big Whomp if fast.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 07-12-2014, 06:39 PM   #11
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
I like Janet's way of explaining what I/we do. Enter on uke's attack side, usual thing and we try to place the entering foot ON the imaginary centerpost of the system's rotation (it generally ends up just behind uke's inside foot), then rotate uke forward witht he arm which attacked trapped and led around in front of uke in a descending arc, while the other hand is somewhere (unimportant where, just somewhere) over uke's head/neck/shoulders giving them a gentle down impetus.

Uke steps forward, doesn't like either the forward or the downward or both, and their back pulls them up and that's when the rotation reverses and we... if we're in a good mood, throw to the horizon line, and if not, throw at our feet in a sort of crumpling spine lock situation if slow, and a big Whomp if fast.

Yeah....the latter done fast does call for a nice oops! throw-your-feet-up hard backfall although - I am sure you know this but it should be said in the forum - NOT because of feeling you are going to be clotheslined. There should be no clotheslining involved, energy is going up over uke in a wave behind him.

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Old 07-13-2014, 04:51 AM   #12
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post

Yeah....the latter done fast does call for a nice oops! throw-your-feet-up hard backfall although - I am sure you know this but it should be said in the forum - NOT because of feeling you are going to be clotheslined. There should be no clotheslining involved, energy is going up over uke in a wave behind him.
Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
I like Janet's way of explaining what I/we do. Enter on uke's attack side, usual thing and we try to place the entering foot ON the imaginary centerpost of the system's rotation (it generally ends up just behind uke's inside foot), then rotate uke forward witht he arm which attacked trapped and led around in front of uke in a descending arc, while the other hand is somewhere (unimportant where, just somewhere) over uke's head/neck/shoulders giving them a gentle down impetus.

Uke steps forward, doesn't like either the forward or the downward or both, and their back pulls them up and that's when the rotation reverses and we... if we're in a good mood, throw to the horizon line, and if not, throw at our feet in a sort of crumpling spine lock situation if slow, and a big Whomp if fast.
do you have any clips? I had a hard time imagining this. What i imagine is: no faceplant, just rotate the body and keep rotating until uke lose its own balance, the cut can be gentle as uke has already been destabilized enough.
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:03 AM   #13
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
do you have any clips? I had a hard time imagining this. What i imagine is: no faceplant, just rotate the body and keep rotating until uke lose its own balance, the cut can be gentle as uke has already been destabilized enough.
I'm getting confused. What is it that you are having a hard time visualizing? If it is the "oops, throw your feet in the air break-fall," there is a great example of it in your own profile picture.
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:36 AM   #14
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
Is it because of the compliance of the uke?
No.
Over the time you will learn to break the balance of uke. It's more easy by guiding (not pushing) his shoulder from the side or the side of his head. It ist more difficult when laying your hand on his shoulder. It is importatn to break ukes balance to his side, not to his front.

When you want uke to come up again, don't lead him to strong, to bring him to the ground with too much intent, but let him kind of swing down and up. Don't push him down, don't pull him up. When you break ukes balance to his side, he will most likely be able to come up again. Even when he is not used to be moved this way. Whe you break ukes balance to the front, he most likely will stay at the floor ... and attack your legs ...

So: Yes, it works.

but ...

This is how we do irimi nage.
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Old 07-13-2014, 01:55 PM   #15
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
do you have any clips? I had a hard time imagining this. What i imagine is: no faceplant, just rotate the body and keep rotating until uke lose its own balance, the cut can be gentle as uke has already been destabilized enough.
Sure, of the latter spinal locking variation. Here is a couple of my students. She is doing (our understanding of, I didn't have the pleasure of training with Mr. Stevens, or his son, Moe, yet - I got this from Nick Lowry) the Merritt Stevens self defense system, which I put in our curriculum for a practical self-defense approach to converting kata to SD.

I agree with you, Janet, btw.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 07-13-2014, 01:57 PM   #16
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Re: Irimi Nage

Oops, apologies. I forgot to mention that the iriminage technique is the fifth she demonstrates out of the 10 there.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:40 PM   #17
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Re: Irimi Nage

John...link???

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Old 07-13-2014, 11:11 PM   #18
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
do you have any clips? I had a hard time imagining this. What i imagine is: no faceplant, just rotate the body and keep rotating until uke lose its own balance, the cut can be gentle as uke has already been destabilized enough.
Just rotating isn't going to destabilize a competent uke. You need to disrupt their alignment somehow.

I was taught that the "neck" hand should rest pretty much at the top of the spine, with the spine lying in the "V" between the fingers and thumb. From there, the feeling is more of the hand falling toward your own center, NOT pushing/pulling uke downward.

Exactly what this does to uke's body will depend on him. A more flexible and responsive person will lower their center to try to keep their alignment, allowing you to "bounce" them back up and leading to the "classic" irimi nage back fall. A less responsive person is likely to bend at the waist, leading to either a faceplant or a forward roll.

Katherine
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Old 07-14-2014, 12:31 AM   #19
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Just rotating isn't going to destabilize a competent uke. You need to disrupt their alignment somehow.

From there, the feeling is more of the hand falling toward your own center, NOT pushing/pulling uke downward.
I second this. In addition, I find a good guide is to make sure your elbow rests against uke's spine. This will prevent your from pushing with your hand.
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Old 07-14-2014, 05:11 AM   #20
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Just rotating isn't going to destabilize a competent uke. You need to disrupt their alignment somehow.

I was taught that the "neck" hand should rest pretty much at the top of the spine, with the spine lying in the "V" between the fingers and thumb. From there, the feeling is more of the hand falling toward your own center, NOT pushing/pulling uke downward.

Exactly what this does to uke's body will depend on him. A more flexible and responsive person will lower their center to try to keep their alignment, allowing you to "bounce" them back up and leading to the "classic" irimi nage back fall. A less responsive person is likely to bend at the waist, leading to either a faceplant or a forward roll.

Katherine
Agree 100% lateral won't do it.
In analyzing how I've come to do it over the past few years with what I think of as opening the bottom of a Dutch door while closing the top for the final throw...I tend to keep my hand pretty much where it is, not maybe very slightly aiming down as I let my own center drop a little while I'm pivoting, and tend to keep uke at that lower position then change the trajectory as I close the door rather them letting him up for the transition between going forward and falling backward.
Don't know if my insomniac writing will make sense.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-14-2014, 05:52 AM   #21
Mario Tobias
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Re: Irimi Nage

I think the proper way to hold is by the collar. A lot of high ranking shihans do it.

The only logic I see to doing this is because if nage holds uke by the shoulder, by the time nage wants to throw, the arm/hand holding uke's shoulder is actually blocking the throw. Holding uke by the shoulder is actually hindering the throw. It's like one arm is cradling the head and one arm is throwing which makes it ineffective IMO because the 2 are opposing each other. You don't want that.

The initial engagement maybe to hold neck/shoulder but during the throw it needs to switch to the collar.

By holding uke on the collar, the hindrance/blockage on the throwing arm is removed.

This is my interpretation.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 07-14-2014 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 07-14-2014, 07:16 AM   #22
phitruong
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Re: Irimi Nage

Mary Heiny sensei referred to this as "hauling sacks of potato". she didn't care much for hauling and i don't either. she also mentioned that you should be able to deliver 3 atemi in every technique. for standard irimi nage, i got 2 strikes in: deflect the attack, strike the kidney, strike the head. haven't figure out the third one yet, unless the third strike is the other hand, the one most folks grab for shoulder/collar, using ridge hand strike to the back of the head at the same time the front hand strike the temple, i.e. shear across the neck bone. or could be a hammer strike when uke falling down. luckily i am not a violent man, unless you stand between me and the foods.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:13 AM   #23
reza.n
Dojo: Ali Dojo
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Re: Irimi Nage

I watched the clip and as always Christian Tissier performance is beautiful and not so practical!
Actually there were 2 forms and the uke is so great

as my own experience I think the finishing of Irimi-nage is too important, it's not good to finish the Irimi-nage with help of uke.
the point in any type of Irimi-nage is to hold back of the uke's neck and push the neck forward while simultaneously with other hand elbow (arm) push the uke's head upward (uke's jaw should be on the tori's arm) and it starts moving a small half circle (upward force to downward).

in other word, think you have a bowl of soup in your hand (the hand that makes the finishing cut) and you want to pour the soup out and make the bowl upside down without turning your wrist joint and just by using your shoulder (by turning your arm around a tiny circle).
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:14 AM   #24
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
I think the proper way to hold is by the collar
I disagree. To be able to effectively manipulate a human body on beginner level, from biomechanical point of view you need 3 points – in case of iriminage, we have one point at the ground and 2 points on both shoulders. These 3 points are enough to collapse his body by removing of alignment of his structure…….. holding both hands on the neck(unless you will choke him out in one second) or throwing atemi everywhere will never do a job – uke can turn his hips and counter.

Once a uke’s body starts to collapse you need to simply throw him out. Correct question is not where you hold him in this moment, but how you transfer a power from your body to his body. You simply need a point of contact that’s all. Look at the videos of Shioda sensei; how he did it, he throw his uke with almost any part of his body, even with buttocks  no particular hold was necessary….
On more advanced level you may use more sophisticated tools that vulgar physical locks do collapse attacker, but I don’t think it would be very easy to describe here  and even less ease to understand….

Nagababa

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Old 07-14-2014, 09:48 AM   #25
kewms
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
Mary Heiny sensei referred to this as "hauling sacks of potato". she didn't care much for hauling and i don't either. she also mentioned that you should be able to deliver 3 atemi in every technique. for standard irimi nage, i got 2 strikes in: deflect the attack, strike the kidney, strike the head. haven't figure out the third one yet, unless the third strike is the other hand, the one most folks grab for shoulder/collar, using ridge hand strike to the back of the head at the same time the front hand strike the temple, i.e. shear across the neck bone. or could be a hammer strike when uke falling down. luckily i am not a violent man, unless you stand between me and the foods.
Frank Doran Sensei sometimes teaches irimi nage as a series of three sword cuts: body cut on the entry, neck cut from behind, and then a kesa giri-like cut on the throw. Saotome Sensei sometimes shows it with three atemi, the last one being either an elbow strike to the chest. There are lots of variations around the same general idea.

Katherine
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