Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-07-2014, 08:47 PM   #1
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
United_States
Offline
Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc9OwMhsCng

This is what using aikido against a non-aikido trained person armed with a knife can look like. It's not pretty, but the effectiveness is explored and demonstrated. This is a video clip from our class today, completely unrehearsed. The attacker's goal is to stab and resist.

Exploring different concepts and approaches to knife disarming.

Knife Tactics 1 - demonstrating the difference between effective offensive knife disarm, and ineffective defensive knife disarm.

Exploring degrees of effectiveness of Go no sen, Sen no Sen, and Sen sen no sen.

This will be part of an ongoing series on knife work. Comments and suggestions welcome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 12:54 AM   #2
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,253
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Dan,
Your offensive attacking style of knife defense has a strong base in surprise. I would suppose a skilled and trained knife fighter would probably be prepared for your actions, but the standard issue thug on the street would be surprised at your approach. You got "cut" and that is to be expected anytime one faces a knife while unarmed. Were you successful? Yes, to a certain degree and maybe even more successful than with the more common knife defenses.

Unfortunately only two things work well for a displayed knife threat: be somewhere else, or be armed with a firearm and stay further than 21 feet away. Absent those two scenarios, the only question is how badly you will be injured.

You have an interesting concept and I would like to see you explore it further - and of course share it here.

Regards,

Michael

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 02:25 AM   #3
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 256
Germany
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Maybe it works if you want to disarm a child with a rubber knife.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 03:16 AM   #4
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 256
Germany
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Just one example: between 1:25 ans 1:29 you would have been killed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 04:00 AM   #5
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Dan,
Your offensive attacking style of knife defense has a strong base in surprise. I would suppose a skilled and trained knife fighter would probably be prepared for your actions, but the standard issue thug on the street would be surprised at your approach. You got "cut" and that is to be expected anytime one faces a knife while unarmed. Were you successful? Yes, to a certain degree and maybe even more successful than with the more common knife defenses.

Unfortunately only two things work well for a displayed knife threat: be somewhere else, or be armed with a firearm and stay further than 21 feet away. Absent those two scenarios, the only question is how badly you will be injured.

You have an interesting concept and I would like to see you explore it further - and of course share it here.

Regards,

Michael
I think you are too kind about the video and too dismissive of the capability of the thug who is very unlikely going to square off.

Dan

There was no resistance and more importantly no aggression in the knife attacks. I had the overwhelming impression that uke was putting himself in a controlled mindset at all times. At best you are exploring some ideas and kudos for that but a rubber knife wont hurt you and you could easily up the game and get a far better impression of what you would truly face.

Technically speaking - the first thing to do is get out of the way and then do you your business. Walking into an armed person is really not an option.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 04:11 AM   #6
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 256
Germany
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

I hope nobody tries this out in reality.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 04:44 AM   #7
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Just one example: between 1:25 ans 1:29 you would have been killed.
He brazed me slightly as he crossed from left to right.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 04:51 AM   #8
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post

Technically speaking - the first thing to do is get out of the way and then do you your business. Walking into an armed person is really not an option.
That's not what I was taught by Nishio. In his school, doing your business is removing the way of the attacker. There is no "get out of the way ... and THEN..."

It's all one movement. Finished.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 04:53 AM   #9
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 256
Germany
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
He brazed me slightly as he crossed from left to right.
What would that mean in reality, with a sharp knife and an attacker who is not just a dummy?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 05:05 AM   #10
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Walking into an armed person is really not an option.
It absolutely is an option. And often it is the best option. It's called irimi. Ueshiba's aikido was based on irimi.

http://.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irimi

Nishio, arguably one of the most studied and broadly experienced martial artisis of the 20th century, entered into the attack with frightening frequency in his curriculum.

And it all depends on the timing and approach.

http://www.aiki-shuren-dojo.com/pdf/Go%20no%20sen.pdf
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 05:07 AM   #11
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
That's not what I was taught by Nishio. In his school, doing your business is removing the way of the attacker. There is no "get out of the way ... and THEN..."

It's all one movement. Finished.
I doubt very much that he advocates impaling yourself.

The taisabki is integral to the technique but has the added advantage of leaving room for failure which is very likely with an aggressive truly resisting attack.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 05:14 AM   #12
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
It absolutely is an option. And often it is the best option. It's called irimi. Ueshiba's aikido was based on irimi.

http://.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irimi

Nishio, arguably one of the most studied and broadly experienced martial artisis of the 20th century, entered into the attack with frightening frequency in his curriculum.

And it all depends on the timing and approach.

http://www.aiki-shuren-dojo.com/pdf/Go%20no%20sen.pdf
Sure, and all my favorite techniques in tanto randori involve irimi (please see the gif for one of my favorites)- just not running onto the knife. Taisabaki can be quite penetrating but it does avoid the thrust.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 05:17 AM   #13
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
What would that mean in reality, with a sharp knife and an attacker who is not just a dummy?
Well, in the two times I've had to deal with people in real life who were swinging around knives, I disarmed them and put them on the ground. Another was an umbrella.

I had a student deal with being held at gunpoint last month, spilling the gunman into the street dazed, while he quickly removed himself from the area.

And the security people and healthcare workers I've trained to deal with violent people have...dealt with violent people, who have used bottles, syringes, feces, knives, loose change, lamps, sticks, stones, and even a Pittsburgh Pirate bobblehead doll.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 07:23 AM   #14
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 256
Germany
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Well, in the two times I've had to deal with people in real life who were swinging around knives, I disarmed them and put them on the ground. Another was an umbrella.
Mybe you were lucky.
But that's not an answer concerning the situation in your video. A real knife and a real attacker would have injured you seriously.
So this is no good publicity.

Last edited by MRoh : 12-08-2014 at 07:25 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 07:24 AM   #15
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
I hope nobody tries this out in reality.
Well, Markus, they do say that in a knife fight, the winner goes to the hospital. If you think that effective defense against a knife means that you get off without a scratch, holding someone's training to that standard may be unrealistic and unfair.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 08:46 AM   #16
Devon Smith
Dojo: Hakkoryu Kenshinkan Dojo
Location: Michigan
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 25
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Sorry, but your attacker's goal was certainly not to "stab and resist". I'm in agreement with Peter and Markus. Train with a person who has intent, and you might get some outcome closer to reality.

http://youtu.be/9igSoJHEdUo

http://youtu.be/3zUI9NgBRTw

http://youtu.be/EDM6sV6666M

http://youtu.be/5r4NI5qmnf0

http://youtu.be/Wz-gQw7H3T4

Raw footage of reality with fatalities (not for the squeamish) http://youtu.be/75RTkGbiJpk

Devon
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 09:41 AM   #17
Devon Smith
Dojo: Hakkoryu Kenshinkan Dojo
Location: Michigan
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 25
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

http://hakkoryu-kenshinkan.com/2014/...-probably-die/

Devon
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 10:23 AM   #18
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
Japan
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

I watch the horrific "your knife defense sucks" videos as much as the next guy, and when they offer advice, to me it seems like they converge on the idea that if you can't get away, your best chance is to close the distance as much as possible. So while I don't think Dan's strategy is going to prevent him from getting cut, it doesn't seem to be all that bad.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:34 AM   #19
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,209
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

I think your [more] realistic knife scenarios are going to be:
A. Present and confront (a scenario of drawing with intent to intimidate)
B. Occlude and assault (a scenario of drawing with intent to harm)
I am not sure "thrust and resist" fits into a category of practicality, and probably some knife people would contend that as a basic strategy in general - I have never heard a knife person use the word "resist" in knife play. If anything, they are less resistant... The vid sounds like its trying to describe responses related to a knife hold up gone bad, where your attacker presented a knife to intimidate compliance and has little skill to use the knife when the threat fails. I think this is a fair scenario because maybe people who commit this assault do not have training in using a knife. But, the scenario is completely different than a competent knife assault. You may need to clarify that scenario if that is what you are trying to describe.

Your description, "demonstrating the difference between effective offensive knife disarm, and ineffective defensive knife disarm," is somewhat inconsistent because you really only cover the groundwork to layout your claim, which is offensive knife disarming works. You never really cover the limitations of what you did, nor the successes of "defensive" responses. Kinda comes off with a clear bias. I think in this thread you do a better job of explaining that conceptually, you are entering. If that's the case, then offense and defense are probably not the right terms to frame the discussion. In fact, since everything we do in aikido should always be entering, your portrayal of defensive strategy is almost fictitious since you are certainly not doing aikido (which otherwise would have aiki, which requires entering). Does that make sense?

I would place a strong emphasis that this is conceptual work, not applied. I think I agree with a number of comments that imply this is not a good video to show success with this work. Even with an attacker who appears to be uncomfortable holding a knife and a defined attack strategy inconsistent with knife work, you make a lot of contact with the weapon in most of the scenario exercises. Also, you finish very few of the scenarios, even showing a little difficulty seizing the weapon during your control. I think you need to finish those controls to improve your portrayal of definite control during the attack with a clear conclusion.

While not as gruesome as some other vids, I do like this product:
http://youtu.be/iw4ft1L5a3U
If we had a Christmas list, this would be on it. Although, I am pretty sure you now have to get certified to even buy one of these things, let alone use...

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 02:19 PM   #20
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Spain
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc9OwMhsCng

This is what using aikido against a non-aikido trained person armed with a knife can look like. It's not pretty, but the effectiveness is explored and demonstrated. This is a video clip from our class today, completely unrehearsed. The attacker's goal is to stab and resist.
Are you sure you uploaded the right clip?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 02:23 PM   #21
aikijean
Dojo: Club d'Aikido de Québec
Location: Québec
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 19
Canada
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Again like I said in a another thread on almost the same subject. Nobody uses atemis or kicks in all the videos except one video with the big bearded guy. My tought is, if I am to get cut I might as well try to kick or punch as hard as I can.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 03:06 PM   #22
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

have not heard anyone mentioned about suit of armor and flame thrower. a friend of mine told me that when you deal with knife, you should arm yourself with whatever you can find: roll up newspaper, rocks, sticks, belt, keys, cell phone, the poodle from the old woman, cat ... no not the cat as cat will hurt you more than the guy with the knife...., McDonald hot coffee maybe with some fries, fruits, jehovah witness guy, and so on. ..... and you should never arm yourself with an aikido person.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 03:42 PM   #23
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 256
Germany
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
If you think that effective defense against a knife means that you get off without a scratch, holding someone's training to that standard may be unrealistic and unfair.
I'm not the one who thinks that.

The videos Devon posted, show that you can't handle a knife attacker like a little child whom you want to take away his chocolate.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 01:53 AM   #24
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I watch the horrific "your knife defense sucks" videos as much as the next guy, and when they offer advice, to me it seems like they converge on the idea that if you can't get away, your best chance is to close the distance as much as possible. So while I don't think Dan's strategy is going to prevent him from getting cut, it doesn't seem to be all that bad.
I agree with this - sometimes trying to break and run away generates its own problems or is just impossible to do. If you have to engage then engage and for sure don't limit yourselves to "Aiki" techniques or anything else.

I also think that testing what you think works or should work under pressure should give you a far better idea of what works or doesn't work. Besides its fun to explore.

My critique of Dan's video has really been about the titles claim backed up by the content. It really falls short but without too much effort the exercise could be improved.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 11:36 AM   #25
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
United_States
Offline
Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)

I appreciate the comments.

What I'm wanting to demonstrate is the tactical approach of defensive vs offensive. And that a defensive tactic — waiting for someone with a knife to move in on you — is disastrous. And that by moving in preemptively when there is a high threat, your chances increase greatly.

As Cliff commented, I am in no way saying there is not a high chance of at least being cut. I mention that in the video — "It's a knife." Just in the same way you can't enter being afraid to get punched, you can't enter and be fearful of the knife.

We performed several attacks in the video, I was cut during a few, but I was never stabbed. And this is really exploring the difference between people going to the hospital vs people going to the morgue.

Also, concerning the knife wielding attacker in the video; he's is probably better at handling a knife than an average person. And even let's say he's below average. He was still easily able to slice me up multiple times when I took on a defensive posture. And that's the point. In fact I think that drives it home more clearly for those who might think he's a puny punk with no intent or real skills.

I absolutely100% stand behind preemptive, aggressive movement in on an attacker with a knife, We have found it to work over and over in our training and experiments. The Dog Brothers, and many others working with similar tactics have arrived at the same conclusions.

Conversely, taking a defensive tactic, and waiting for someone to begin moving towards you with a knife in motion, as often is the case in aikido training, has such dismal results over and over again, I wonder why it's even in aikido's training curriculum.

I also wanted to demonstrate that aikido can be quite effective with preemptive movements. There is an aspect of irimi that takes the courage to enter, to move past the fear of injury, to take control and dominate the situation.

I encourage anyone training aikido to conduct some experiments on defensive vs offensive knife tactics. And to do so with someone moving around with a knife, not just attacking with a tsuki that is delivered and then hangs in the air.

This is the first video on knife tactics. Perhaps I failed in aspects of the presentation. Possibly the word "resistant" set off some flags. Which I actually find interesting, since so much of aikido is practiced collusively.

Perhaps it would be as simple as changing the title? Something like: Knife Tactics" Offensive vs Defensive

And if I do that, is that concept demonstrated clearly in the video?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM
Albo Kali Silat KaliGman Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 8 05-20-2011 03:05 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 17 Peter Goldsbury Columns 41 06-03-2010 09:46 PM
So I started the solo exercises... Blake Holtzen Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 25 05-21-2010 09:26 AM
Article: Clarity and Self-Delusion in One's Training by George S. Ledyard AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 65 12-24-2005 07:34 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:11 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate