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Old 09-16-2013, 11:53 AM   #226
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
Location: Denmark
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

For me, dressing like I do and like the others do when practising is a gesture showing my connection to a certain group. So whether we chose to stick with etiquette or not is all the same I believe.
Itīs a matter of choosing whether to stay inside or outside a certain context.
Maybe.

On a personal level, I believe putting your heart in whatever you do is important, even when it comes to dressing up. Sort of like the inside being projected on the outside I guess..
Anyway I never liked to show up at a wedding reception all dressed up in beachwear and like so I donīt like to show up for practise in my pajamas.

Cheers
Lars
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:07 PM   #227
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

The dress (and etiquette) of Aikido is just part of the ritual. According to the adage, dreams are how our unconscious mind speaks to the conscious; ritual is how the conscious mind speaks back. As humans, we create ritual around everything we do that matters to us. As Zen master John Daido Loori used to say, there's ritual to everything, even a baseball game.

The key aspect of ritual is you don't have to believe it, or mean it, or think it--you just have to do it. The meaning comes from the doing. Every Christmas you can fuss over putting up the snow village--it's a hassle and it never comes out quite right. Then one year you declare you're not going to do it--and your children all tell you it won't be Christmas without the snow village. The meaning was in the doing, not in your attitude towards it.

So in Aikido. It doesn't really matter what you think about the pleats on your hakama or your bow to the shomen--they're part of the ritual you have made of your Aikido (if you use them). They are their own meaning.

But that's *your* Aikido. Or mine, anyway. Saying they define Aikido is like saying if you don't speak with an Arkansas accent, you're not speaking English.

---
This post brought to you by a Dark & Stormy or two drunk while sitting in the sun on San Francisco's Embarcadero. The poster reserves the right to disavow the contents upon sober reflection.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:03 AM   #228
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Is this aikido?


Last edited by CitoMaramba : 09-19-2013 at 08:08 AM.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:12 AM   #229
Cliff Judge
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Is this aikido?
It is certainly a demonstration of the techniques used in Aikido training.
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Old 10-17-2013, 03:09 AM   #230
NTT
 
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

To the question is this aikido? I would not answer that a demonstration of technique is aikido. In the same way I don't think aikido exists outside training.
I remember seeing at an exhibition at the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, France, a picture from Ancient Egypt that was definitely ikkyo. How many ways are there to do an arm lock on a down coming sword? Not that many.
So aikido shares its technique with many other arts through time and space.
To come back to the initial subject, I believe that aikido without the Japanese layers would be most of the time a reflection of one's self in the mirror. We need to go out of our way to really study otherwise we end up searching for comfort and habits.
So what would be classical French fencing without "panache" and leather and all the bowing? Self satisfied technique.

Nguyen Thanh Thien
Walk the distance, keep the distance
Aikido Yuishinkai in France
Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
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Old 10-19-2013, 10:59 PM   #231
ryback
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Well, in my opinion, if you strip aikido from it's etiquette, protocol and dressing it wouldn't be aikido anymore, it wouldn't even qualify for a true budo.
Aikido is not a matter of personal definition but a complete martial art. There are people who are making convenient choices based on their personal opinions, so we have schools that practice no weapons because it seems useless, schools that don't adopt the proper etiquette, because they see no point in it but then these choices are showing badly on their technique.
You can make, serve and drink tea without performing the tea ceremony, it would taste the same. But you cannot call it "tea ceremony" anymore it would be mere "tea drinking". In the same manner you can practice kote gaeshi effectively without the etiquette or hakama. It can be a good disarming technique and combat method. But it wouldn't be a martial art anymore.
Studying the culture of any country by reading books is a very different thing from practicing a martial art as a way of life. Stripping it from any of it's core elements out of convenience would only leave your practice poorer...
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:51 PM   #232
Chris Li
 
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
Well, in my opinion, if you strip aikido from it's etiquette, protocol and dressing it wouldn't be aikido anymore, it wouldn't even qualify for a true budo.
Aikido is not a matter of personal definition but a complete martial art. There are people who are making convenient choices based on their personal opinions, so we have schools that practice no weapons because it seems useless, schools that don't adopt the proper etiquette, because they see no point in it but then these choices are showing badly on their technique.
You can make, serve and drink tea without performing the tea ceremony, it would taste the same. But you cannot call it "tea ceremony" anymore it would be mere "tea drinking". In the same manner you can practice kote gaeshi effectively without the etiquette or hakama. It can be a good disarming technique and combat method. But it wouldn't be a martial art anymore.
Studying the culture of any country by reading books is a very different thing from practicing a martial art as a way of life. Stripping it from any of it's core elements out of convenience would only leave your practice poorer...
Morihei Ueshiba, of course, changed all kinds of things - including etiquette, protocol and dressing, and it still seems to have remained budo. For that matter, if you can't change things without Aikido dissapearing then it has already dissapeared, because nobody, not even the Iwama folks, trains just the same way that Morihei Ueshiba did.

All budo, for that matter has changed, and continues to change, over time. People don't wear quite what they used to wear, they don't behave quite the way that they used to behave. Things move on.

Practicing a martial art as a way of life has very little, IMO, to do with funny clothes that people didn't even wear 100 years ago anyway.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-20-2013, 12:23 PM   #233
Budd
 
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Chris, not that I have any entitlement nor means to do so - but I'd like to award IPPON to this post.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Morihei Ueshiba, of course, changed all kinds of things - including etiquette, protocol and dressing, and it still seems to have remained budo. For that matter, if you can't change things without Aikido dissapearing then it has already dissapeared, because nobody, not even the Iwama folks, trains just the same way that Morihei Ueshiba did.

All budo, for that matter has changed, and continues to change, over time. People don't wear quite what they used to wear, they don't behave quite the way that they used to behave. Things move on.

Practicing a martial art as a way of life has very little, IMO, to do with funny clothes that people didn't even wear 100 years ago anyway.

Best,

Chris
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Old 10-20-2013, 03:28 PM   #234
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

This gets back to the question of what ritual is. People get attached to particular ritual because of the meaning they've assigned to it, which comes from the context they learned it in. All those elements of proper attitude, intentional practice, shugyo and misogi--which are, of course, valuable in themselves--become associated with the ritual in which they are embedded. It's perfectly reasonable to ask, if you throw out the ritual, how do you ensure you maintain the qualities the ritual points you towards. And I think it's fair to say that if you *don't* maintain those qualities, you have a nice sport but not a martial art.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:54 AM   #235
aikidark
Dojo: Aikido at Plano Dojo, Plano Texas
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Is it still the military (as in martial) if you take away the weapons, saluting, rank, training system, uniforms, structure, discipline, rituals, rites, and honor? Now can you do aikido if you strip these things away,sure, but doing a martial art and practising a martial art are two different things.

Last edited by aikidark : 10-21-2013 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 10-21-2013, 07:35 AM   #236
Keith Larman
Location: California
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Is a banana split still a banana split if you don't put on peanuts? Then how many peanuts, exactly, should be on one banana split in order for it to still be banana split?

Ooooh, or even more controversial, what if you use pistachios instead? Is it still a banana split?

Oh, and do we have to use Cavendish bananas, or are some of the less common varieties okay too. You know that 99.9% of all banana splits are made with Cavendish bananas. But what about the seeming apropos named "ice cream" bananas? They of course smaller so it changes the look and feel of the banana split. And it is still a banana... But it looks different. And the banana itself tastes different, has a different consistency... And virtually no one uses them.

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Old 10-21-2013, 11:21 AM   #237
aikidark
Dojo: Aikido at Plano Dojo, Plano Texas
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Interesting analogy, Kieth: "How martial arts is like a banana split..."

I also practice BJJ, which comes from judo, but I can tell you I am not practicing judo ;-)
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:22 PM   #238
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Quote:
Alex Fitzgerald wrote: View Post
I also practice BJJ, which comes from judo, but I can tell you I am not practicing judo ;-)
BJJ = Basically Just Judo


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Old 10-21-2013, 12:26 PM   #239
Budd
 
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
BJJ = Basically Just Judo

I thought it was originally BJJK and they dropped the K

~Basically Just Judo (Kosen)~

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Old 10-21-2013, 01:24 PM   #240
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Quote:
Alex Fitzgerald wrote: View Post
Is it still the military (as in martial) if you take away the weapons, saluting, rank, training system, uniforms, structure, discipline, rituals, rites, and honor? Now can you do aikido if you strip these things away,sure, but doing a martial art and practising a martial art are two different things.
Yes we call it Special Forces!

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Old 10-21-2013, 01:36 PM   #241
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I thought it was originally BJJK and they dropped the K

~Basically Just Judo (Kosen)~

IIRC, kōtō senmon gakkō was still not implanted when Maeda left Japan. Anyway, Kosen judo was kiddy Judo.

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Old 10-21-2013, 01:53 PM   #242
aikidark
Dojo: Aikido at Plano Dojo, Plano Texas
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Re: Is it still Aikido if you take away the Japanese clothes, etiquette and other things?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Yes we call it Special Forces!
Really? There is no discipline, uniforms, training system, rituals, rites or honor, weapons, rank or saluting in Special Forces? Where do I sign up?

Last edited by aikidark : 10-21-2013 at 02:01 PM.
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