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Old 07-09-2013, 06:12 PM   #26
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
One could make a good case that the aggressor was the British Empire, which ...context does matter.
I'm aware of the history of colonialism, but it seems like you're teetering towards being an apologist for irredentism and/or falling into the trap of trying to isolate the blame. Go back far enough, and except for some folks living in the Rift Valley, it's guaranteed that none of us are living where our ancestors started out, and we can't exactly go back. No more can the Rohingya - look at the "welcome" they've been getting in Bangladesh, even if we accept the probably-fiction that that's where they all came from. So what's the point? It doesn't matter if colonialism created the conditions; the facts on the ground right now are that Buddhist monks, speaking from a position of authority, are inciting violence against Muslims. To rescue the train from this derail and get it back on the tracks: this is a simple counterexample of various assertions about Buddhism made by OP. There have been Buddhist wars of conquest, Buddhist forced conversions, and violence done in the name of Buddhism. I'm totally uninterested in a debate about whether Buddhism serves as readily as Christianity as a tool for identity politics, because any difference is a difference in degree only. It's also debatable whether a religion, once made such a tool, really is a religion at all any more, but that's again a completely different topic. OP clearly has a romanticized view of "Asian religions", ascribing to them characteristics that could not possibly be universal in such a diverse set of belief systems.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:34 PM   #27
Fred Little
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
.... it seems like you're teetering towards being an apologist for irredentism.....
"Teetering" sounds both better and worse than the arguably more accurate verb "posing," for which you get additional style points!

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter if colonialism created the conditions; the facts on the ground right now are that Buddhist monks, speaking from a position of authority, are inciting violence against Muslims. To rescue the train from this derail and get it back on the tracks: this is a simple counterexample of various assertions about Buddhism made by OP. There have been Buddhist wars of conquest, Buddhist forced conversions, and violence done in the name of Buddhism. I'm totally uninterested in a debate about whether Buddhism serves as readily as Christianity as a tool for identity politics, because any difference is a difference in degree only. It's also debatable whether a religion, once made such a tool, really is a religion at all any more, but that's again a completely different topic. OP clearly has a romanticized view of "Asian religions", ascribing to them characteristics that could not possibly be universal in such a diverse set of belief systems.
While I don't disagree with a single point you make in the graph above and find your dedication to reason against idiocy commendable, you may need St. Jude on your side if your observations are directed to OP.

Best,

FL

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Old 07-09-2013, 07:04 PM   #28
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Angus sure puts a lot of sugar on his porridge.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:28 AM   #29
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post

Now to 'inclusive monotheism' and 'exclusive monotheism' . As I said they are 'scholarly terms', little ole me using such.......blasphemy!!!

Anyway, having a reality on no competition spiritually and then coming across these terms and what they mean finally answered a few questions. Shinto, omoto and such were called inclusive and christianity and such were called exclusive.Now the reason for this was indeed to do with the religions themselves. Shinto has many Gods and yet they originate from one, thus one true source God. Thus it is natural for those of such culture and belief to acknowledge all other faiths and their God too. So when one comes along and says they only believe in the one true God then that's fine also for it means the source God, the original creator. Thus these type of religions are called inclusive.

Now the interesting bit is the label exclusive. So remember these are 'man made' labels of course as usual, but as a label it says such a religion believes their God is the real and only God and thus other religions are inferior. Their God is the ONLY God. That calls to ego like a plate of food to a starving man. That breeds competition.

So you can see it's nothing to do with the enlightened, divine persons within the religion but only of the manipulators of the religion. For in true religion I would say there cannot be competition unfortunately there is heaven, earth and man and man is still not too bright.

It is interesting to me that all those past enlightened folk tended to mention the same things, namely love etc. as being the way yet all the followers end up .....well, I don't think I have to tell you.

I don't know if you ever watched the old David Carradine Kung Fu Series but it reminds me of the two where he meets the blind priest. Wisdom from both sides, excellent.

So to me as with true budo is love so it is with true religion too and thus both should be all embrasive. Both are beyond egotistical competiton and duelism (spelt that way on purpose)

I think O'Sensei thought similarly.

Peace.G.
Hi Graham, thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions I appreciate it.

Regarding the virtue of inclusive religions, while in Japan visiting my fiancee at New Year we visited, with her family, the city of Beppu in the southern island of Kyushu famous for its hot springs. We went on a sight-seeing tour around the city and were taken to a temple situated above the city on the mountain side. The temple was dedicated to a snake god, a gold coloured python. The original snake was brought over by Japanese merchants who worshipped it because of its colour believing that it would make them rich. The priests had bred the snake ever since and kept it in a glass case at the front of the temple for visitors to see.

We were taken inside by the priest where he conducted a ritual for my fiancee's family in which he prayed to the snake and allowed them to rub it. Apparently the snake has healing properties and it is believed that if you rub the snake and then touch your own body where it hurts it will heal you. My fiancee and I stood back and watched as her family members followed the priests instructions, we refused to bow to the snake when instructed. The priest said something to us which I did not understand but my fiancee later told me that the priest was basically unhappy we refused to bow and told her that our devotion to our religion was unhealthy and we had offended the snake.

This does not strike me as being enlightened at all. My fiancee's family are actually buddhist but revere the shinto gods as is the Japanese custom of syncretism (the inclusivity you refer to). To watch them bow to a snake and then rub it believing it could actually heal them was the most bizarre thing I've seen from a religious stand point. I believe this kind of practice is completely misguided and even harmful. Rather than enlightening this approach to religion is demeaning to us as humans. I am not ashamed of the fact that the God as revealed through the Bible and in the person of Jesus Christ calls me to eschew idol worship. I would ask you to consider this anecdote Graham and think through the implications of this form of "inclusive" religion.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:15 AM   #30
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post

This does not strike me as being enlightened at all. My fiancee's family are actually buddhist but revere the shinto gods as is the Japanese custom of syncretism (the inclusivity you refer to). To watch them bow to a snake and then rub it believing it could actually heal them was the most bizarre thing I've seen from a religious stand point. I believe this kind of practice is completely misguided and even harmful. Rather than enlightening this approach to religion is demeaning to us as humans. I am not ashamed of the fact that the God as revealed through the Bible and in the person of Jesus Christ calls me to eschew idol worship. I would ask you to consider this anecdote Graham and think through the implications of this form of "inclusive" religion.
Hmm, doesn't seem any odder than Christian snake handling as a religious practice - or the huge market for fragments of the "true cross" or the bones of saints that used to be common in Christianity. In the Middle Ages there were even a number of churches who claimed to be in possession of Christ's foreskin - and that it had magical powers.

For war in Christianity you just have to look to the crusades - or the longest war in history, the Thirty Years War, which all started with Protestant/Catholic squabbling.

As far as that goes, Buddhism in Japan has a long history of armed military conflicts.

Shinto was never really organized enough to get into conflicts on that scale - but played a major role in the ultra-nationalist movement of pre-war Japan.

Omoto-kyo itself dabbled quite a bit with the far right wing before the war - and of course, Deguchi's plan to invade Mongolia really wasn't all that peaceful either, if you happened to be Mongolian.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-10-2013, 03:26 AM   #31
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Now, in history shinto on the whole was very tolerant religion as was Buddhism.
Hm? When I read my books about Japanese history I find a lot of rivalry and competition between those two. There where bans, takeovers of shrines and temples and so on.
True: There was also blending. But this same blending of religions also has taken place in the West: Ostara is not a christian goddess ... And the mistletoe at christmas also does not have it's roots in christian beliefs ...

Quote:
In fact I would say Buddhism spread and covered a great part of the world at one point but did so without war which was very unusual for a religion.
This is a common prejudice: There has been mission and there have been wars in the history of buddhism. The truly can in no way be compared to the crusades. But they did exist.

Quote:
... Their God is the ONLY God.
True. But.
Is there something that has "created" the dao? Can there be an alternativ way besides the dao?
Can the truth of Buddha's enligthenment be relativised by different truths?
And so on ...

I think I understand what you hope and what you want your personal religion to be. But I also think that you idealize religious history.

Quote:
I don't know if you ever watched the old David Carradine Kung Fu Series ...
I have come to think that this series is one of the true sources of both buddhism and chinese internal arts here in Europe ...

Quote:
I think O'Sensei thought similarly.
Maybe o sensei thought this way. But Ueshiba Morihei in 1924 set off to conquer a shambala.
As far as I know it was not as a soldier at war that he experienced hand-to-hand combat. But it was during this religious endeavor?
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:57 AM   #32
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Hmm, doesn't seem any odder than Christian snake handling as a religious practice - or the huge market for fragments of the "true cross" or the bones of saints that used to be common in Christianity. In the Middle Ages there were even a number of churches who claimed to be in possession of Christ's foreskin - and that it had magical powers.

For war in Christianity you just have to look to the crusades - or the longest war in history, the Thirty Years War, which all started with Protestant/Catholic squabbling.

As far as that goes, Buddhism in Japan has a long history of armed military conflicts.

Shinto was never really organized enough to get into conflicts on that scale - but played a major role in the ultra-nationalist movement of pre-war Japan.

Omoto-kyo itself dabbled quite a bit with the far right wing before the war - and of course, Deguchi's plan to invade Mongolia really wasn't all that peaceful either, if you happened to be Mongolian.

Best,

Chris
We are what we are.

Anyway, as soon as human beings on grounds of their belief- system feel that they have a mission ( a form of competition) or in consequence those on the receiving end feel that intolerance has become intolerable, both sides may tend to make a public appeal to so called "Sanctity" and/or "Righteous indignation" with sometimes long lasting competitive consequences, including war.

Best,

Bernd
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:30 AM   #33
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Hmm, doesn't seem any odder than Christian snake handling as a religious practice - or the huge market for fragments of the "true cross" or the bones of saints that used to be common in Christianity. In the Middle Ages there were even a number of churches who claimed to be in possession of Christ's foreskin - and that it had magical powers.
Absolutely, I would agree there were some incredulous superstitions perpetuated by Catholicism in the Middle Ages and in some denominations today. However, the tradition of buying sacred relics purported to have efficacious qualities was put to an end through the Reformation in Protestant countries that adopted the religious reforms. The Reformers understood that the Bible was a higher authority than the traditions of the Catholic Church and purged practices that did not conform to Scripture. The Catholicism of the Middle Ages was not true Christianity.

As for the snake handling, the irony of their misguided practice is that the particular part of Scripture they appeal to in defence of their practice is not even considered canonical. The passage comes from Mark 16:18 about handling serpents and drinking deadly poison but the earliest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel do not include chapter 16:9-20, which means most Christians now only recognize Mark 16:1-8 as being canonical. It is widely accepted that verses 9-20 were added later and not originally written by the author of Mark's Gospel.

I don't deny that Christianity has its fair share of misguided practises but these practises when scrutinised by the authority of Scripture are shown to be fraudulent and worthy of rejection.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:06 AM   #34
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
"Teetering" sounds both better and worse than the arguably more accurate verb "posing," for which you get additional style points!
Apologies - I didn't mean to impugn your footwork!

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
While I don't disagree with a single point you make in the graph above and find your dedication to reason against idiocy commendable, you may need St. Jude on your side if your observations are directed to OP.
Or at any of us, probably. This thread had the objective at its origin of prying the heathen free of their misguided beliefs, and has continued in that vein - with courtesy, but nevertheless...

So I'll just address Graham directly and say: I believe (and the historical record supports this belief) that you view "Asian religions" through rose-colored glasses, to say the least. Rose-colored glasses distort, but if you don't care to abandon them in order to get a less distorted view, would it help if you saw that they're simply not necessary? The value of a spiritual tradition such as Buddhism isn't diminished by looking at it warts and all - far from it, learning to see things as they are rather than as we would have them is central to Buddhist thought.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:17 AM   #35
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Absolutely, I would agree there were some incredulous superstitions perpetuated by Catholicism in the Middle Ages and in some denominations today. However, the tradition of buying sacred relics purported to have efficacious qualities was put to an end through the Reformation in Protestant countries that adopted the religious reforms. The Reformers understood that the Bible was a higher authority than the traditions of the Catholic Church and purged practices that did not conform to Scripture. The Catholicism of the Middle Ages was not true Christianity.

As for the snake handling, the irony of their misguided practice is that the particular part of Scripture they appeal to in defence of their practice is not even considered canonical. The passage comes from Mark 16:18 about handling serpents and drinking deadly poison but the earliest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel do not include chapter 16:9-20, which means most Christians now only recognize Mark 16:1-8 as being canonical. It is widely accepted that verses 9-20 were added later and not originally written by the author of Mark's Gospel.

I don't deny that Christianity has its fair share of misguided practises but these practises when scrutinised by the authority of Scripture are shown to be fraudulent and worthy of rejection.
My point was not to argue over which of the ever-changing interpretations of scripture are "correct", but to point out that a single example (and I'm not even sure that you're not misunderstanding where they're coming from) can hardly characterize a religion as "inclusive", "exclusive, or anything else. Especially in Japan, where there is little uniformity of belief or practice.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-10-2013, 10:46 AM   #36
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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My point was not to argue over which of the ever-changing interpretations of scripture are "correct", but to point out that a single example (and I'm not even sure that you're not misunderstanding where they're coming from) can hardly characterize a religion as "inclusive", "exclusive, or anything else. Especially in Japan, where there is little uniformity of belief or practice.

Best,

Chris
I understood your point and I know you were not trying to argue from Biblical exegesis the merit of snake handling. My response to Graham was to argue that if by "inclusive" we mean all accepting without judgement of the ethical and spiritual merit of such beliefs or practises then this is a cause for concern. To place the teachings of Christianity or any other major religion on a par with snake worship or similar forms of superstition is wrong in my opinion. I was not trying to argue from one example that Japanese religion was inclusive, exclusive or other.

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Old 07-10-2013, 10:49 AM   #37
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
I understood your point and I know you were not trying to argue from Biblical exegesis the merit of snake handling. My response to Graham was to argue that if by "inclusive" we mean all accepting without judgement of the ethical and spiritual merit of such beliefs or practises then this is a cause for concern. To place the teachings of Christianity or any other major religion on a par with snake worship or similar forms of superstition is wrong in my opinion. I was not trying to argue from one example that Japanese religion was inclusive, exclusive or other.

So...you're saying that Shinto is a superstition, but that Christianity is a major religion?

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-10-2013, 10:52 AM   #38
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
My point was not to argue over which of the ever-changing interpretations of scripture are "correct", but to point out that a single example (and I'm not even sure that you're not misunderstanding where they're coming from) can hardly characterize a religion as "inclusive", "exclusive, or anything else. Especially in Japan, where there is little uniformity of belief or practice.
Religion is exclusive by definition, and often violently so. Saying otherwise is as convincing as claiming vegetarianism to be inclusive. This is instinctively understood, since religions that make attempts at inclusivity quickly make everyone uncomfortable.

Japan is a reasonable (and utterly unique) exclusion from the above, however. Japanese culture is so laissez-faire and capricious about religion that, with a few notable outliers, when compared with fundamentalism they barely qualify. Furthermore Shintoism's status as a religion is quite debatable, and most of the folks I know who identify as Shinto do not think of it as such.

Last edited by bkedelen : 07-10-2013 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:26 PM   #39
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Religion is exclusive by definition, and often violently so. Saying otherwise is as convincing as claiming vegetarianism to be inclusive. This is instinctively understood, since religions that make attempts at inclusivity quickly make everyone uncomfortable.

Japan is a reasonable (and utterly unique) exclusion from the above, however. Japanese culture is so laissez-faire and capricious about religion that, with a few notable outliers, when compared with fundamentalism they barely qualify. Furthermore Shintoism's status as a religion is quite debatable, and most of the folks I know who identify as Shinto do not think of it as such.
That depends partly on one's semantics though, doesn't it? I'm certainly no expert, so please forgive any errors, but I'd label the Shinto of Tsubaki Okami Yashiro as an "inclusive religion." As I think I understand it, it's codified largely in terms of the practices/rituals (which still seems to fit the definition in Webster's for "religion") more than some exclusive point of view or belief, which seems to leave a lot of room for interpretation (and is inclusive to the extent it accepts the individual views of others; as anecdotal evidence, I've heard kannushi suggest that asking different kannushi about the meaning of Shinto will yield differing answers, and it was put forward to suggest this idea...or at the least, that's how my mind interpreted it at the time...I'll have to ask my teacher about his understanding of this now, since the more I write the less confident I feel ).

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-10-2013 at 12:28 PM.

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Old 07-10-2013, 01:13 PM   #40
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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So...you're saying that Shinto is a superstition, but that Christianity is a major religion?

Best,

Chris
No I didn't say that, I said snake worship and similar forms of superstition. I was not judging Shintoism as a religion by one example of snake worship, I was expressing concern that a hypothetical all "inclusive" religion as Graham believes Shintoism and Omoto to be should exercise discernment and judgement before declaring all forms of religion as equal and thus believed to be more virtuous because of its non-competitive approach to differences within religions.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:44 PM   #41
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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...I'll have to ask my teacher about his understanding of this now, since the more I write the less confident I feel ).
My teacher prefers to not use the term "religion" for describing Shinto, as Benjamin was probably alluding.

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Old 07-10-2013, 01:50 PM   #42
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

This thread is evolving into a very strange thought experiment.

Graham, who is not shinto, is implying that shinto is better than other religions because shinto doesn't try to figure out which religion is better, while Ewen disagrees but is trying to talk around the fact that he thinks Christianity is better than other religions, despite (or perhaps because of) the readily available proof to the contrary.

I am interested to see where this goes.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:28 PM   #43
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Those misguided practices came directly from scripture. Which interpretation is right? Which practice is true? Is truth absolute? Does truth matter? How can truth be ascertained?

Now, O-Sensei said what? In what language, in what society at which point in its history? Is his word truth or is his practice truth? Must we be exactly like him, must we copy his path, or must we do something else? Can we pull any of that off, if necessary?

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Absolutely, I would agree there were some incredulous superstitions perpetuated by Catholicism in the Middle Ages and in some denominations today. However, the tradition of buying sacred relics purported to have efficacious qualities was put to an end through the Reformation in Protestant countries that adopted the religious reforms. The Reformers understood that the Bible was a higher authority than the traditions of the Catholic Church and purged practices that did not conform to Scripture. The Catholicism of the Middle Ages was not true Christianity.

As for the snake handling, the irony of their misguided practice is that the particular part of Scripture they appeal to in defence of their practice is not even considered canonical. The passage comes from Mark 16:18 about handling serpents and drinking deadly poison but the earliest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel do not include chapter 16:9-20, which means most Christians now only recognize Mark 16:1-8 as being canonical. It is widely accepted that verses 9-20 were added later and not originally written by the author of Mark's Gospel.

I don't deny that Christianity has its fair share of misguided practises but these practises when scrutinised by the authority of Scripture are shown to be fraudulent and worthy of rejection.
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:52 PM   #44
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
This thread is evolving into a very strange thought experiment.

Graham, who is not shinto, is implying that shinto is better than other religions because shinto doesn't try to figure out which religion is better, while Ewen disagrees but is trying to talk around the fact that he thinks Christianity is better than other religions, despite (or perhaps because of) the readily available proof to the contrary.

I am interested to see where this goes.
Christianity as an instituted form of religion is fallible, like all man-made institutions religious or otherwise, and as a Christian myself I have had to wrestle with and confront its many mistakes, errors and injustices throughout the ages and into modern day. I have not denied in this thread that there have been legitimate grievances against Christianity. But that does not mean the fundamental principles, morality, ethics, teachings and indeed truth (if I may be so bold) of Christianity as a spiritual path established by Jesus himself as preserved in the Bible are not correct and worthy of pursuit.

Quote:
Those misguided practices came directly from scripture. Which interpretation is right? Which practice is true? Is truth absolute? Does truth matter? How can truth be ascertained?
Assuming these questions are genuine and not sarcastic or satirical I gave reason why snake handling is not considered orthodox practise within mainstream Christianity. While Mark 16:9-20 are still printed in Bibles, all versions of Bibles now bracket or at least footnote that these verses are not found in the earliest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel and are thus universally rejected by Bible scholars and translators as non-canonical, as they did not originate from the author himself. Only the writings of the authors of the books of the New Testament is considered inspired Scripture, not embellishment added later. To base a practise on the supposed teachings of Jesus is unwise and especially in the case of snake handling dangerous as these writings were not inspired by the Holy Spirit. The apostolic foundation of the New Testament writings creates an excellent criteria for how truth can be ascertained regarding so called Christian practises and traditions.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:18 PM   #45
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Absolutely, I would agree there were some incredulous superstitions perpetuated by Catholicism in the Middle Ages and in some denominations today. However, the tradition of buying sacred relics purported to have efficacious qualities was put to an end through the Reformation in Protestant countries that adopted the religious reforms. The Reformers understood that the Bible was a higher authority than the traditions of the Catholic Church and purged practices that did not conform to Scripture. The Catholicism of the Middle Ages was not true Christianity.

As for the snake handling, the irony of their misguided practice is that the particular part of Scripture they appeal to in defence of their practice is not even considered canonical. The passage comes from Mark 16:18 about handling serpents and drinking deadly poison but the earliest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel do not include chapter 16:9-20, which means most Christians now only recognize Mark 16:1-8 as being canonical. It is widely accepted that verses 9-20 were added later and not originally written by the author of Mark's Gospel.

I don't deny that Christianity has its fair share of misguided practises but these practises when scrutinised by the authority of Scripture are shown to be fraudulent and worthy of rejection.
Hi Ewen. Whether catholisism at a certain time was or was not true christianity I see people can debate and reason. The removal of one thing and concentration on another is fine but within that personally I still see a human trait of symbology. Therefor if symbols have such a rewarding effect then why say anyone can't have them? I haven't seen any religion or person or group that doesn't have some or many sybolic representation.

A symbol basically represents something, that's why it is a symbol. Letters are symbols too and so are words. So a snake, an idol, the M of macdonalds.....all symbols. So for me I never blame the symbol or put a symbol down for I only look at what it represents to me.

To do with 'other' religions I would err on the side of respecting what they do and if in 'their house' so to speak would thus follow the ritual or procedure out of respect. If I consider it breaks a firmly held rule of mine then of course I would politely refuse. Thus I see generally no problem there or need to be against.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:30 PM   #46
graham christian
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hm? When I read my books about Japanese history I find a lot of rivalry and competition between those two. There where bans, takeovers of shrines and temples and so on.
True: There was also blending. But this same blending of religions also has taken place in the West: Ostara is not a christian goddess ... And the mistletoe at christmas also does not have it's roots in christian beliefs ...

This is a common prejudice: There has been mission and there have been wars in the history of buddhism. The truly can in no way be compared to the crusades. But they did exist.

True. But.
Is there something that has "created" the dao? Can there be an alternativ way besides the dao?
Can the truth of Buddha's enligthenment be relativised by different truths?
And so on ...

I think I understand what you hope and what you want your personal religion to be. But I also think that you idealize religious history.

I have come to think that this series is one of the true sources of both buddhism and chinese internal arts here in Europe ...

Maybe o sensei thought this way. But Ueshiba Morihei in 1924 set off to conquer a shambala.
As far as I know it was not as a soldier at war that he experienced hand-to-hand combat. But it was during this religious endeavor?
I don't think I idealize religious history. The beginnings of such religions were no doubt much much more ideal for real than later 'copies'. In fact Religion itself is about and should be about ideal....that's it's job. In essence it should be the moral compass of humanity which just shows how far from ideal we are in my opinion.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:54 PM   #47
bkedelen
 
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
But that does not mean the fundamental principles, morality, ethics, teachings and indeed truth (if I may be so bold) of Christianity as a spiritual path established by Jesus himself as preserved in the Bible are not correct and worthy of pursuit.
You may not be so bold. The bible is, among many other abominable things, literally a pro-slavery document, so I am going to go ahead and call bullshit on this one.

Last edited by bkedelen : 07-10-2013 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:55 PM   #48
graham christian
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
This thread is evolving into a very strange thought experiment.

Graham, who is not shinto, is implying that shinto is better than other religions because shinto doesn't try to figure out which religion is better, while Ewen disagrees but is trying to talk around the fact that he thinks Christianity is better than other religions, despite (or perhaps because of) the readily available proof to the contrary.

I am interested to see where this goes.
Mmmm, better than? I am saying that a scholarly distinction was made which note the two differences of inclusive and exclusive monotheism. Both no doubt contain many religions.

Thus I make two points.

!) That the exclusive one and it's given meaning if adhered to is detrimental, divisive, competitive and egocentric.

2) That in essence none should be under that label anyway.

Saying one is superior to another or indeed all others is wholly detrimental in my opinion and indeed unreligious.

That would be basic step one which I doubt humanity could even handle. Then step two would be noticing that as religion in essence is inclusive that the only outness is not religion but man dressed up as religious.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:05 PM   #49
Krystal Locke
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Why would religion make a better moral compass than, say, the obligate social nature of the species?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I don't think I idealize religious history. The beginnings of such religions were no doubt much much more ideal for real than later 'copies'. In fact Religion itself is about and should be about ideal....that's it's job. In essence it should be the moral compass of humanity which just shows how far from ideal we are in my opinion.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:14 PM   #50
graham christian
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Hmmm. Tried to get a link to a pertinent page but it didn't work. Anyway an interesting page is on google entitled: Frequently Asked Questions About Oomoto.

Peace.G.
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