Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-14-2015, 03:13 PM   #1
Cnaeus
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 16
Offline
Osensei's Aiki

I have read a lot of opinions in the AikiWeb forums archives regarding the topic of Aiki. It seems like a lot of people consider "Aiki" to be a special ability used in some daito-ryu schools to negate the opponent's power and then toss him around effortlessly. These people also consider Aikido techniques to have somehow derived from this special skill through Osensei.
I would be curious as to what is the consensus in international Aikido circles regarding Aiki now, what was this Aiki and how does Osensei's aiki differ from daito ryu aiki?
Did Osensei change the Aiki used in daito ryu, and if he did, what could be his purpose with it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2015, 02:43 AM   #2
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: Riverside CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 556
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Quote:
Peter Lang wrote: View Post
what is the consensus in international Aikido circles regarding Aiki
HHHHHHHAAAHAHA.
I'd guess the consensus is either "I'm doing it right but you aren't," or if you are talking about within the aikikai, then more like "we're all doing it."

OK joking aside this interview with Olivier Gaurin (posted a while ago but I missed it... but mentioned recently on aikiweb) was refreshing to read, and I think, right on. See the section about Daito ryu, where he describes his understanding of how O-sensei learned aiki and then kind of hid it away later-- but never stopped using it within his own budo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 03:03 PM   #3
Cnaeus
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 16
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Thank you! As you have said the interview was right on. I must say I rarely encounter this level of insight and - indeed, wisdom - in Aikido cyrcles that Gaurin sensei showed in this interview. Even so, I am not fully convinced by his argument of high level aikido and high level daito ryu being the same. There are quite some daito ryu schools to begin with, defining aiki in different ways. Stanley Pranin wrote an article not long ago about the aiki of various daito ryu schools that he himself experienced, and in the comments section he says how based on his own experience the aiki of those schools vary greatly. So, if different daito ryu schools developed different aiki, then Osensei could also have developed a kind of aiki particularly for aikido...
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 07:07 PM   #4
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: Riverside CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 556
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Thanks, I hadn't seen that article (Aikido Journal has fallen off my radar since I let me subscription expire... silly me). Pranin says the definitions are discrepant, but then he paraphrases the definitions. To me, the paraphrased definitions all sound pretty similar.
I guess I feel like there is a core skill that is shared, but different exponents "show off" that skill differently.

As for Gaurin the comment about similarity-- I can see 2 easy explanations. Either he is expressing the "at the master level, all boxing becomes one..." idea, or if you take the "Murrayan" point of view, there is a more cynical interpretation: if the ability is rare, it is possible to have lots of experience but never encounter it. Thus you wouldn't really know what you are talking about regarding the "aiki" of the founders of two different schools you are comparing.

In the case of Gaurin sensei I lean away from the latter.

I don't have breadth of experience so you'll have to add salt...
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 06:13 AM   #5
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 458
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

"the only one on the tatami doing Aikido is O Sensei, we do something that looks like, but is not Aikido".
or something along those lines...

My inspirational teacher, Nobuyoshi Tamura, always said: one millimeter either side and you are not doing aikido.
When asked why the students could do what he did, Ueshiba, replied "because you do not understand yin yang"

obviously it is hard to grasp. I guess/suspect it is like riding a bicycle.
If you cannot you can hardly be explained what it is like. If you can, you understand.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 02:07 PM   #6
Cnaeus
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 16
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Yeah, on one hand it is a fruitless speculation to talk about anyone's Aiki while we ourselves are unable to produce it. On the other hand I sometimes think about Aiki as a kind of an ideal that we strive to achieve even though we know we will most likely never be able to fully achieve it. Sometimes I think about techniques like a shooter thinks about the bull's eye; he aims at it, fires, and even though each time the shot lands somewhere else, his aim still remains the same. In other words, do you think there was a different "bull's eye" at which Osensei "aimed" his Aiki?
I have read lots of articles/blogs/forum posts on the necessity to fill today's aikido with daito ryu aiki or taiji internal power or some other martial skills from various other martial arts... and I was wondering if Aikido had some similar "set of skills" originally that Osensei tuned specifically for the purpose of Aikido, and thus was different from that of the daito ryu schools'.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 03:31 PM   #7
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Well those Daito ryu guys don't all have the same story on what Aiki is either, remember.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 05:34 PM   #8
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 881
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

When I first went to Japan in 1989 my first aim was to do Daito Ryu. I had no clue where to look at first but did go visit a couple of places. What I saw was garbage - it was just wooden kata ... so I stuck with Aikido, Judo, and found another school of Jujutsu (Takeda Ryu) which I liked. Of course, you could say I didn't find real DR, but back then barely anyone had heard of it. The Jujutsu that I did find was in the phone book under Aikido so that was almost accidental. No one knew what JJ was either (ordinary people). In fact, I did four homestays and only one of them knew what Aikido was. Segal's movie pushed Aikido's name even in Japan.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 03:38 AM   #9
Cnaeus
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 16
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Well, my assumption was that by "Aiki" we mean the "Aiki" displayed by the Sagawa-ha and the Kodokai schools of DR (for an example see this demonstration by Yusuke Inoue, head of Kodokai after Horikawa passed away) - I guess I have read too much "internal power" treads recently and it totally slipped my mind that these schools are actually not the "mainstream" DR...
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 05:01 AM   #10
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

You would have to spend time in both of those schools to know with confidence that they are same thing. That's probably not going to happen.

And even if the term aiki refers to a manifest internal power that feels similar in both schools, their training methods may differ and the purpose of using aiki might be as different between them as it is between Aikido and Daito ryu.

In my personal experience doing different martial arts and sticking to them for awhile, at first you see matching patterns in both and its super exciting because you think you are seeing some overarching uber-principle, but after awhile, you realize nothing important is really the same. Ymmv.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 11:49 AM   #11
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
When I first went to Japan in 1989 my first aim was to do Daito Ryu. I had no clue where to look at first but did go visit a couple of places. What I saw was garbage - it was just wooden kata
In 1989, what had your level and quality of experience been that you were able to judge the quality of the kata you saw?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 05:32 PM   #12
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 881
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
In 1989, what had your level and quality of experience been that you were able to judge the quality of the kata you saw?
Good question. Almost. 10 years of Aikido (Tomiki (lotsa kata) and Aikikai) / Jujutsu / Kungfu / Judo + Judo kata, which I liked. I was training most days in my 20s. I was completely nuts. Helped run a couple of clubs. Started Judo as a kid (not too serious) before Aikido. I'll say it again - the DR I saw was garbage. No doubt there musta been some good stuff lurking somewhere.
I also went to see the yearly Kobudo demos at the Meiji Jingu. I was not impressed either. Lots of old guys trying to do stuff ... I could not believe how bad it was. I could tell that some of the younger ukes had skill, but they were not doing the demos. Seniority etc. That was just what I saw and thought. So I stuck with Aikido - it suited me - free and dynamic.

When I moved to Korea I went to the yearly martial arts festival. Also, tons of ridiculous stuff. Two old guys catching sword blades in their clapping hands etc. They were there every year. And so on. I did see a guy do suwari-waza on a tightrope - now that was something. I have a pic, a video even ... somewhere. And the Seonmudo Monks were good. But so much garbage.

In recent years I have seen/felt more people with great skill ...

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 11-21-2015 at 05:45 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2015, 11:01 AM   #13
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I'll say it again - the DR I saw was garbage. No doubt there musta been some good stuff lurking somewhere.
I am still curious what you had seen or heard about Daito ryu up until you saw it in Japan that led you to expect different than what you saw.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2015, 10:29 PM   #14
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 881
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I am still curious what you had seen or heard about Daito ryu up until you saw it in Japan that led you to expect different than what you saw.
Before I went to Japan I knew little of Daito Ryu. There was no YouTube back then. But I had attended various seminars. One was by a group of Japanese from Hontai Yoshin Ryu, as I remember. They were very impressive - soft and powerful - it looked like a fluid mix of Judo/Aikido/Jujustu. I guess I expected it to be something like that. But it was not.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2015, 06:57 AM   #15
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Neat. I did a little HYR with Stephen Fabian from NJ. He is a great teacher and an impressive swordsman.

My understanding is the first three sets of kata you learn in that system - the stuff they show publicly - were put together in the early 20th century and have a modern character to them. I never saw anything passed that.

There is also that friendship between Ueshiba and the Kukusin ryu headmaster....Kukishin ryu is maintained within HYR....some of those HYR kata really resemble Aikido kihon.

Why didn't you go to Utsunomiya or wherever to train with those guys??? They would probably have shown you all Ueshiba's secrets!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2015, 03:29 PM   #16
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 881
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Osensei's Aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Why didn't you go to Utsunomiya or wherever to train with those guys??? They would probably have shown you all Ueshiba's secrets!
Well, after mucho searching, I found myself doing Aikikai with Omura Hiroaki (Uchideshi of Ueshiba), Judo with Abe Shin (Olympic champion), Yoshinkan with Ando Tsuneo, and Takeda Ryu with Soke Nakamura Hisashi (at his home dojo). That kept me busy everyday, sometimes twice a day. I was travelling all over the place (got me a motorcycle).

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido Bridge Seminar - Perth Australia 3rd June to 5th June 2016



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yukiyoshi Sagawa's Aiki, a true portrait of Transparent Power - Interview with Tatsuo Kimura Part 2 Chris Li Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 18 09-05-2015 11:48 AM
Aiki Ken and Ken justu Tsunemori Techniques 62 11-29-2011 07:39 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 07-31-2009 11:19 PM
What Makes a Technique an "Aikido" Technique? akiy Techniques 55 11-02-2005 02:01 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:39 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate