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Old 05-24-2013, 12:04 AM   #26
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
well, maybe you should look in Daito-ryu as that is what Ueshiba taught for a considerable time.
I would love to. However looking at modern Daito-ryu is like looking at modern Aikido. We would have to look at early Daito ryu to see if it was part of the early syllabus. What is the earliest written account of Daito Ryu technique? From what I've read of accounts of those who worked on Budo Renshuu, the techniques found in that book are very similar to the Hiden Mokuroku scroll Ueshiba had. If that scroll has been put into print, I would LOVE to see it.

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Old 05-24-2013, 01:57 AM   #27
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

Probably not that related but I did Takeda-ryu SoBudo (Nakamura-ha) in Japan way back when and they had morote-dori. It's an old school of Jujutsu but they have modernised it.

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Old 05-24-2013, 10:45 AM   #28
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

I think, considering the material Aikido addresses, that morote dori is an essential part of our study.

However, it seems that early on it wasn't practiced as part of regular Aikido/Aiki Budo training. I was just wondering when that came about, and why. If it was a part of regular Daito ryu training, why did Ueshiba leave it out of early Kobukan training? If it wasn't a part of Daito ryu training, when did it become a part of Aikido training? Why did Ueshiba leave the attack out of "Budo"?

These are the questions I have. Not really about the validity of morote dori as an attack. I think morote dori- in many different forms, is essential to Aikido training.

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Old 05-24-2013, 11:45 AM   #29
Devon Smith
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
wonder if it has something to do with law enforcement restraint approach, i.e. two LEOs restraint an unruly samurai or some such. if it is, the wouldn't that make the practice to counter LEO?
Phi and others,

For what it's worth, my understanding of the reasoning behind Hakkoryu's teaching of defense against morote (two hands on one) is precisely the above, though not specifically against law enforcement folks. Morote may have been an immediate attempt by one person to prevent one from reaching for a tanto or wakizashi, or may be an arresting technique used by two people. Hand-me-down techniques from pre-Meiji times?



Another reason I feel the morote attack would only happen in last-ditch scenarios such as these is because we're taught to strike whenever a hand is free; meaning it would generally be unwise to seize a person's arm with both hands unless they had already (or were about to) draw a weapon.

Devon

P.S. Phi, you may be more correct than you know...in Hakkoryu's Shihan-gi we're taught to prevent efficient tying of our hands so as to make easier an escape later on.
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Old 05-24-2013, 06:25 PM   #30
graham christian
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

Seems obvious to me that it would be common to do so throughout the ages, too obvious. Firstly when someone has a sword or weapon, especially a large weapon many would use two hand grab of arm.

Secondly and even more obvious is don't get so caught up in "it has to be written" over common sense. What do you think Ikkyo is other than a morote dori in essence.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:32 PM   #31
Devon Smith
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

Just a thought on my part, and I only have a few years of Aikido exposure, so keep that in mind when reading my stuff, cousins.

Perhaps one reason the morote attack isn't and wasn't taught much is that in executing a technique in response, it's largely redundant; at least in our curriculum, it is quite often.

In Hakkoryu basics we're taught to ignore the second hand and respond as if a single hand is available. Of course, having access to both of the aggressor's hands more than doubles the number of responses available, plus atemi with the free hand is a plus, be it an "eye closer" (目潰) or a hit on meridians before the execution of the response.

Maybe the redundancy is also reason this particular attack isn't a focus in Aikido, just a thought!

Devon
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:20 AM   #32
Devon Smith
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Pay very close attention to what goes on that segment. Interesting things to be seen there. It is not important what I see but what do you see? 0:18-0:23 a lot can happen in 5 seconds.
As a Hakkoryu student, I enjoyed 2:32 to 2:36 very much!

Devon
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:49 PM   #33
jamesf
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

I was pondering the original question, myself, when I ran across this (old) thread. It inspired me to do a bit of my own research before responding, but here are my thoughts on it.

At first glance, morotedori may not seem like a very practical attack to train against, I think that changes if you consider the multiple-attacker scenario. However, if you never learn how to deal with it versus a single uke, you will never be able to make it work against two or more ukes.

I also noticed that morotedori is missing in the early Aikido literature (Budō Renshuu, 1933; Budō, 1938). While we can only speculate on the reasons for the omission, we can say, with certainty, that it was present during training of that same era: if you carefully watch the full cut of the 1935 Asahi film, you should be able to count morotedori being used at least 12 times by Ō-Sensei's ukes. (Sometimes it's tough to make out, due to camera angle or simply the fact that it's almost all ki no nagare, but 12 is my count, feel free to debate it.)

Below are the approximate cut times that I could see morotedori being used in the film; add about 0:01:10 if you are watching the version with Stanley Pranin's introduction.

two ukes:
0:12:45
0:12:50
0:12:53

one uke:
0:12:58
0:13:02
0:13:07
0:13:49
0:13:58
0:14:04

5 ukes:
0:14:22 static start
0:14:30 randori
0:14:38 randori
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:19 PM   #34
Aikilove
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

Wow... old thread indeed.
As has already been mentioned earlier, if we are to believe Saito M. the founder taught almost all attack starting from a response to shomen (push down arm and you have most one handed grabbing attacks from front, grabbing attacks from ushiro, two handed grabs on same arm - morote! - and straight shomen uchi).
I have found over the years, however, that during more random settings, such as multi-uke jiyuwaza and randori, that if I just bring out my arm in front of uke's nose in just the right time - when they have just committed to something - it messes with their reflexes and usually leads to them grabbing it with both hands morotedori style.
On the other hand I also think that quite a lot of what today goes as morotedori has evolved into that form from more of a katadori menuchi type attack, that when the founder's uke tried to hold on to stuff during the ride it became morotedori.
Morotedori basics were probably mostly kokyuho, kokyu- and related koshinage, and some obvious osae such as nikyo. The rest of the nagewaza like shihonage and so on, were probably added because it was functional as well.

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:28 PM   #35
rugwithlegs
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Re: Where does "Morote Dori" come from?

The attack when training hiriki no yosei ichi with a partner is morote mochi. I had wondered if the grab was a way to train shomenate chin strike techniques with feedback on power and structure but Ike's neck not in jeopardy.

Good catch that morote Dori is not there on Budo renshu. FWIW, one teacher I met taught that ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo. kotegaeshi, shihonage are actually variations on morote dori. Variations on grips and twists, but they are all two hands holding one hand. Reversals of these techniques are morote Dori techniques.
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