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Old 11-17-2004, 07:58 AM   #26
deepsoup
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
The reason for teaching counter techniques has nothing to do with competition; it is meant to deal with students, who for whatever reason, become beligerent.
If you need 'secret' techniques to deal with your own students, something is seriously wrong with your dojo culture imo.
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Old 11-17-2004, 08:14 AM   #27
grondahl
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
If you need 'secret' techniques to deal with your own students, something is seriously wrong with your dojo culture imo.
So the koryu styles that only teaches Ura-techniques to it´s devoted students all have a bad dojo culture?
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Old 11-17-2004, 10:48 AM   #28
deepsoup
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote:
So the koryu styles that only teaches Ura-techniques to it´s devoted students all have a bad dojo culture?
Depends why they do it. If those techniques are kept from the junior students so they can be used by the senior students to smack them down in case they get uppity, then yes, that sucks.

I'm sure there are valid reasons not to teach certain techniques until a certain level. But that aint one of them.

A teacher who feels the need to keep a secret weapon this way is acting like he's afraid of his own students, does that seem healthy to you?
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Old 11-17-2004, 06:07 PM   #29
Keith_k
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Re: Counter Techniques

Perhaps I was too vague.
Suppose you have good student and bad student. While practicing technique, bad student constantly cranks on good student a little too much, even after verbal warnings. So the instructor says to bad student "I will be your partner now" and uses counter technique.

Now you may say that bad student should simply be thrown out of the dojo and told never to return. In some cases this might be the best course of action, but in others not. Maybe bad student is really a good student in most cases, or has the potential to be a good student, but needs a little tough love. Counter technique gives the instructor another OPTION for dealing with these kinds of students, as well as providing a deeper understanding of the technique itself.

I think it is also important to note that I have never actually seen, or even heard of cases, where counter technique was actually used. I don't think that it fosters any kind of bad dojo enviroment. I also don't seen why it is so unreasonable that advanced students know techniques that begining students do not (Dan level Hapkido students are also taught counters to judo techniques that lower-level students are not taught). It may also be that the origional intent of counter technique was as described above, but has lost this purpose over time (we still train with swords, but who actually uses a sword for combat anymore?).
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Old 11-17-2004, 06:49 PM   #30
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Counter Techniques

Of course most Sensei who are in control of their class may have a few options of dealing with a difficult student other than resorting to kaeshiwaza. There are many ways to deal with such a situation as indicated above. To me kaeshiwaza is a last resort unless the training is during randori etc. where counters are part of the practice and easily shows up during the flow.

As far as secret techniques, I don't really think such things exist, only a deep mastery of basic principles. Kaeshiwaza however are not secret techniques imo.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-17-2004, 07:04 PM   #31
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Re: Counter Techniques

George S. Ledyard - thanks for the information. I am also trying to rationalise various parts of Aikido training by dividing forms and methods of practice into more easy-to-understand lumps of information. Otherwise, how is one to make sense of the mess?
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Old 11-17-2004, 08:35 PM   #32
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Counter Techniques PS

PS I am not sure where your #3 fits into my scheme of things. It seems more like a Jujutsu technical counter. Technical in that, he does ikkyo on me, gets so far, then I manipulate it to my advantage and do a technique (scissors) on him. Seems more technical than going with aiki-flow. Or that might just be my experience/visualisation of non-aiki UK jujutsu doing the same thing. Nothing wrong with adding flow, of course. Still, I am not sure I understand the underlying principle/theme of your #3 that makes it different (from the others).

Personally, I divide it thus:

First, for kaeshi-waza I define irimi as sending uke's energy back from whence it came and tenkan as allowing it to continue (rather than omote / ura body positions).

Second, I divide movement into large and small circles.
Thus, I can reverse technique (ikkyo) in an irimi fashion in a large circle by adding a little redirecting energy (creating ikkyo) or a small circle (which is almost like performing a direct hit on uke, as you do, a kind of kokyu-nage perhaps).
Or, I can reverse a technique in a tenkan (ikkyo) fashion (remember, tenkan here means aiding uke's attack) by adding a little energy in a large circle and creating say, kokyu-nage (as you do), or by using a small circle and switching technique to say, as you do, juji-nage.

So, my method of taxonomy is:

irimi / tenkan + small / large circle

Which, I hope, is pretty easy to understand.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 11-17-2004 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 11-25-2004, 03:15 AM   #33
wildaikido
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Re: Counter Techniques

Hello all,

It has been such a long time.

For those who are not familiar with the Tomiki techniques I would suggest http://www.gedanate.com/randori-no-k...echniques.html
(Jun please feel free to remove this link in need be)

I have added a quick ROUGH!!!!!!! list for comparison. Please don't attack my list is only a ROUGH!!!!!! list for comparison, and is by no means great.

1. Shomen-ate.............Tenchi Nage
2. Ai-gamae-ate...........Irimi Nage Henka
3. Gyaku-gamae-ate....Sokumen Irimi Nage
4. Gedan-ate...............Aiki OToshi, Do Gaeshi
5. Ushiro-ate...............Ushiro Otoshi
6. Oshi-taoshi.............Ikkyo
7. Ude-gaeshi.............same
8. Hiki-taoshi..............Ikkyo Tenkan Henka
9. Ude-garame............Shita Ude Garami. From Judo
10. Waki-gatame........Hiji Shime
11. Kote-hineri............Sankyo Henka
12. Kote-gaeshi..........same
13. Tenkai-kote-hineri..Sankyo
14. Shiho-nage...........same
15. Mae-otoshi...........Hiji Ate Nage
16. Sumi-otoshi..........same
17. Hiki-otoshi............same

Thanks,

Graham

Last edited by wildaikido : 11-25-2004 at 03:19 AM.

Graham Wild
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Old 11-25-2004, 07:36 AM   #34
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Counter Techniques

Hi Graham,

Not attacking your list - it's a great effort at translation of the Shodokan nomenclature.

Justone question though - how do you equate Shomen Ate with Tenchi Nage? Tenchi nage is a form of Aigamae ate or Iriminage without the head grab and turn, just the entry. It is applied from the side of Uke's body when Shomenate goes through the weak line of the Uke from a more central position.

Just thought I'd ask.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 11-25-2004, 12:15 PM   #35
deepsoup
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Just one question though - how do you equate Shomen Ate with Tenchi Nage?
I didn't get that either, I'd say tenchi nage would very definitely be aigamaeate.

The thing is though, there's not a one to one correspondance between the different naming systems, so it isn't possible to write a list like this and have it accurate.

For example, Graham listed kote hineri as 'sankyo henka'. I've never heard of sankyo henka so I don't know about that, but I do know that some kote hineri would be considered by Aikikai folks to be ikkyo, and others would be very clearly nikkyo.

Sean
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Old 11-25-2004, 02:21 PM   #36
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
I do know that some kote hineri would be considered by Aikikai folks to be ikkyo, and others would be very clearly nikkyo.
Now that I think of it you're absolutely correct. Have always wondered whether what we call Kote Mawashi would figure into an Ikkyo Nikkyo or Sankyo. I agree that there may not be a direct one to one relationship between the naming systems.

Now I realise why I catch so much hell trying to translate those.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-25-2004, 08:55 PM   #37
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Counter Techniques

From Tomiki to Aikikai Aikido:

oshi-taoshi is ikkyo
kote-mawashi is nikkyo
kote-hineri is sankyo
tekubi-osae is yonkyo

At least, that's how it was when I did it.
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Old 11-25-2004, 10:08 PM   #38
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
From Tomiki to Aikikai Aikido:

oshi-taoshi is ikkyo
kote-mawashi is nikkyo
kote-hineri is sankyo
tekubi-osae is yonkyo

At least, that's how it was when I did it.
Well this is exactly what I was referring to.

The proper Shodokan name for the technique that often comes across as Kote Mawashi is actually Gyakutedori Kotehineri Osae which would make it Kotehineri (or Sankyo in Aikikai lingo) applied with a reverse (gyakute) grip. The thing is though that visually this technique looks a lot like what some folks call Nikkyo in Aikikai.

Go figure.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 11-25-2004, 10:51 PM   #39
wildaikido
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Re: Counter Techniques

Hi everyone,

This is exactly the type of discussion I didn't want to stimulate. Hence the "Please don't attack my list is only a ROUGH!!!!!! list for comparison." Notice all the exclamation marks.

But I open the door; well I claim only to have turned the door handle.

I perform my tenchi nage like shomen ate, just on the outside of uke, using my palm.

Now the kote hineri is a henka (variation) of the classic sankyo where you turn under ukes arm, which is tenkai kote hineri.

Might I just, to add insult to injury, I do Yoseikan and we call

ai gamae ate......................nodo oshi
oshi-taoshi......ikkyo...........robuse tori
kote-mawashi..nikkyo.........kote kudaki
kote-hineri.......sankyo........yuki chigai tori
waki gatame...hiji shime.....hiji kudaki
mae-otoshi.....hiji ate nage..tenbin nage

And let's remember I added the web site so people who do not know Tomiki waza can have a look.

Sigh,

lol,

Graham

Last edited by wildaikido : 11-25-2004 at 10:54 PM.

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Old 11-25-2004, 11:07 PM   #40
maikerus
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Re: Counter Techniques

Now you have to throw the Yoshinkan names in there so I can understand

Why do we have so many names for what is essentially the same technique, anyway? Is there a dictionary or a rosetta stone somewhere that translates all these names into the other names. And don't point me to the English translations, because they don't make sense to me either.

And why do people who live outside of Japan use more Japanese phrases within their Aikido than I do...than I have even heard after studying here for 12 years??? <sigh>

I must be soooo linguistically challenged...and here I thought I could get along (well, some of the time) in Japanese <wry grin>. At least I can order beer

cheers,

--Michael

Last edited by maikerus : 11-25-2004 at 11:10 PM.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 11-25-2004, 11:39 PM   #41
wildaikido
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Re: Counter Techniques

Aikikai to Yoshinkan, easy

ikkyo........ikkajo
nikkyo......nikajo
sankyo.....sankajo
yonkyo.....yonkajo

From what I have read Mochizuki Sensei said O sensei called Ikkyo, Robuse before the war, while he was training with him (this means arm rowing btw) and Yuki Chigai refers to the stepping under of uke's arm. I also think the Kudaki (crushing) was replace by the 'softer' mawashi (turn in) and shime (restrict).

Graham

Last edited by wildaikido : 11-25-2004 at 11:42 PM.

Graham Wild
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Old 11-26-2004, 12:11 AM   #42
maikerus
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Re: Counter Techniques

That's four

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 11-26-2004, 07:00 AM   #43
deepsoup
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
The proper Shodokan name for the technique that often comes across as Kote Mawashi is actually Gyakutedori Kotehineri Osae which would make it Kotehineri (or Sankyo in Aikikai lingo) applied with a reverse (gyakute) grip. The thing is though that visually this technique looks a lot like what some folks call Nikkyo in Aikikai.
You're quite right about 'kote mawashi', although there are still a lot of folk under the general Shodokan umbrella who use that term. (There are lots of folk in the UK and elsewhere who're not the least bit interested in how things are done at honbu, weird but true. )

I wouldn't say that kotehineri translates to sankyo though, thats just the thing. Junte dori kote hineri (especially tenkai kote hineri - as in randori no kata) is pretty clearly sankyo, but some gyakute kote hineri are definitely nikkyo. (As in the 4th kyu grading syllabus suwari waza.)

The thing is though, other variations on gyakute kote hineri look more like ikkyo, because they're both kote hineri and oshi taoshi at the same time. If you look at the randori no kata no ura waza (counter techniques - see, I'm not totally off topic!), there are a couple of good examples where uke attempts aigamaeate and oshitaoshi, in both cases tori takes a gyakute dori grip and counters with oshi taoshi whilst applying kote hineri. I'm not sure if an Aikikai person watching would think of the technique as ikkyo or nikkyo, but I am pretty sure it wouldn't be sankyo.

But then if you think of ude hineri (again, from randori no kata), that can also be done whilst applying kote hineri (gyakute dori) - as it is in the goshin no kata - and an Aikikai person would almost certainly call that technique kaiten nage.

I think its best just not to attempt to translate the terminology, as there isn't a one to one correspondance, it generally adds more confusion than it clears up.

Sean
x

Last edited by deepsoup : 11-26-2004 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 11-26-2004, 07:35 AM   #44
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Counter Techniques

You summed it up very well Sean.

Hence my saying that there are not necessarily any one to one comparisons and translations to certain techniques.

Quote:
I perform my tenchi nage like shomen ate, just on the outside of uke, using my palm.
On another note Sean, isn't Aigamae Ate defined by being in aigamae stance on completion of the throw from Uke's side, regardless of whether the palm or forearm etc. is used? In this case how can a throw done from the side in an Aigamae Ate/Tenchi Nage fashion be Shomen Ate which means frontal strike? I think Tomiki was very particular in separating one from the other based on relative body postioning. The same thing goes for gyakugamae ate, it depends on your position in relation to Uke. Of course in Aikikai all of the above is irimi nage. The above mentioned techniques can be seen here - http://www.ttac.0catch.com/atemi.htm .

Just checking to make sure though. I think it was important to Tomiki that the naming system be precise and appropriately define the technique.

As far as Kaeshi Waza though, I just love the Shomenate --> Waki Gatame response. One just slides right into the lock.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 11-26-2004, 07:57 AM   #45
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Re: Counter Techniques

Just to be a pain (excuse the pun) but I use kote mawashi. The formal name is just too long.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-26-2004, 11:39 AM   #46
deepsoup
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
On another note Sean, isn't Aigamae Ate defined by being in aigamae stance on completion of the throw from Uke's side, regardless of whether the palm or forearm etc. is used? In this case how can a throw done from the side in an Aigamae Ate/Tenchi Nage fashion be Shomen Ate which means frontal strike? I think Tomiki was very particular in separating one from the other based on relative body postioning. The same thing goes for gyakugamae ate, it depends on your position in relation to Uke.
I don't know. I don't think you could really call it shomen ate. Although if you do shomenate in aigamae stance, does that make it aigamaeate too. And of course ushiroate is really an aigamaeate, just as gedanate is really gyakugamaeate. My head is starting to hurt.

I agree about the shomenate-waki gatame. In fact that whole kata is really nice, definitely one of my favourites. (Sadly, that doesn't necessarily mean I do it very well!)

Quote:
Peter R wrote:
I use kote mawashi. The formal name is just too long.
Aha. Looks like I stand/sit corrected.

Sean
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Old 12-09-2004, 04:59 PM   #47
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Re: Counter Techniques

I cant really go into detail and explain exactly how it is done, but the other day my Sensei countered someones nikkyo technique with the exact same nikkyo technique. Again I dont know how this was done exactly, and for me, a technique that looks easy usually isnt.

Look into it.

-Chris-
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Old 01-01-2005, 01:27 AM   #48
Alvin H. Nagasawa
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Re: Counter Techniques

Regarding Counter Techniques.

First of all, counter techniques should not be taught to any kyu or yudansha unless by the dojo cho.

Any form of counter Techniques is my view, is the improper execution of the attack.and the uke can see a opening. But at this level only a experience and well developed practitioner can Counter the nage or uke. Practicing over and over again polish the individual until they become one. But if one is off in any way shape or form you are left open. usually its the sempai correcting the others attack or execution. There are so many factors involved in learning one technique to a level where one cannot be countered.

So my suggestion don't just go thought the motion in your training, be alert, use your Uke or Nage as your shield to protect yourself when its needed.

I will agree with the others that have posted there comments on this subject. Aikido is not a competitive MA and lets keep it that way. For those who believe in what the founder started.

Well, I wish you all Peace and good will to man. And a Happy New year to you and yours in Y2005.
Train safely and respect your training partner and your Sensei. Hope to hear more of your comments in the Aiki Web Site.

Lone Wolf of San Jose
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Old 01-01-2005, 02:54 AM   #49
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Re: Counter Techniques

For us ten ura techniques are taught as requirements for 1st Kyu and 14 kaeshiwaza techniques for Nidan and up. However, all techniques encountered anywhere in the syllabus, can be taught to any student by whoever runs the class. For us there is no separation of students or forbidden techniques.

I personally consider kaeshiwaza and ura techniques the highest expression of what we do - an understanding of which allows for free flowing technique and a loss of the tor/uke distinction.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-01-2005, 07:09 AM   #50
mj
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Just to be a pain (excuse the pun) but I use kote mawashi. The formal name is just too long.
Gyaku-te dori kote hineri, if anyone is interested.

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