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Old 10-10-2013, 02:29 PM   #126
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
On the mat, I am dealing with people who can effectively resist my technique unless I do it just right, and put a lot of correctness juice into it. Maybe that's why I am an ass on the mat.
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Old 01-31-2014, 11:45 PM   #127
kfa4303
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
What can I say - it satisfies my inner sadist.
This
Nikkyo can/does/should hurt like a bolt of lightning going up your arm when applied properly. It will bring even the biggest guys to their knees in an instant. It's the one technique I use to show what Aikido is in 30 seconds, or less. The pain itself is produced from compression of the medial and radial nerves in the carpal region of the wrist. Best of all, it can be released just as easily as it was applied with no real lasting damage to uke. It's a great self-defense technique and has many "real world" applications as well. The version in the vid is a bit "stiff"/formal, but that seems to be a common approach in many Yoshinkan schools. Here' another approach. Jump to the 3:40 mark for Nikkyo demo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI0zWEiPhhM
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:06 AM   #128
Janet Rosen
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Actually the famous study of nikkyo by Gregory D. Olson and Frank C. Seitz in the early 90s noted it is the touching of the periostium of the ulna and radius that produces the exquisite pain.
And many of us become quite immune to that aspect of it...which they explain as well in that over time it seems there is more of a gap between the bones.
Discussion of nikkyo starts on p. 11
http://issuu.com/csolimpia_slobozia/...al-and-motor-s

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:40 AM   #129
kfa4303
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

"Famous study"? I've never seen it until now, and if you read the who thing there is quite a bit "assuming" and "surmising" going on. Aside from the fact that we're taking a huge leap in "assuming" they're even applying the techniques correctly, there are still so many variables they did not control for that this can hardly be called "scientific". The most obvious being a rather unresponsive cadaver specimen, which constituted a sample population of exactly 1. (what is the p-value for a sample of 1, 1? I don't see a Cronbach alpha-score listed in this "scientific" study) Quick, what am I talking about? No Googling.........LOL!!! It's beyond laughable, it's down right insulting to anyone who has even passing familiarity with basic statistics and the scientific method. Clearly, the good (doctors?) conducted amateur researchers, at best. Not to mention the few living subjects they applied the technique to were also of wildly contrasting builds and abilities, by their own admission.
Again, this is antithetical to the scientific method in which as many variable as possible must be accounted and controlled for. That includes the size, age, weight of the participants, a significantly large sample size, non-biased subjects and practitioners, etc.....
In the section titled "What's causing the Pain?: A re-examination of the Aikido Nikyo Technique" the authors admit freely that "Although it *appears* that the Nikyo technique of both studies was executed similarly, a discrepancy emerged in the findings..." Ya don't say? It *appears* as though David Copperfield can fly, so he must be able to fly. I mean it *appears* that way, so it must be true. They go on to admit that different subjects perceive the pain in vastly different regions and to greatly varying degrees with some reporting pain up the entire length of their arm. This discredits rather supports their hypothesis and suggests inconsistent application of technique on the part of the "experts". They go on to conclude that "It is the contention of this study that both studies' findings are correct." Furthermore, "The differing results may be attributed to the particular anatomy and length of training of the subjects." (again, with the lack of control specimens, tsk, tsk.) So despite the fact that they recorded pain in wildly different areas of the arm, on wildly different specimens, made no real attempts at control, had a sample of 1 cadaver and 2 Aikido buddies, they're right, even though their own evidences is inconsistent and best, if not outright contradictory?.?) Oh well, what did you think they were going to say? Let me guess, they need more money for further research too. (Don't they always?)
The only way for pain to radiate upwards from the wrist to be felt is via trauma to the radial and ulnar nerves, which extend up the entire length of the arm. The technique is referred to a wrist lock for good reason. As for "many of us becom(ing) quite immune to the aspect of it", well that's just about the least scientific, most subjective statement you can make. After all, who is "us"? You and your buddies who have some how managed to develop super powers and inhuman pain tolerance, which eludes the rest of us? If you really can't feel pain from a properly applied nikkyo, you haven't developed a new skill, you've developed nerve damage. Besides, I betcha nickle I and several other members here can make it work.
There is also no concrete evidence for their notion that "there is more of a gap between the bones" (gotta love that scientific lingo) as a result of exposure to nikkyo over time. Again, what was their sample size (1, 2, 3 whole people)?
This is pseudo-science at its best boys and girls. Stay away. Stay far, far away............
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Old 02-01-2014, 05:14 PM   #130
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Dependence on pain compliance is the lowest form of martial arts technique. As long as you continue to practice this way your partners will always be falling due to the need to escape pain (or the anticipation of pain), preventing you from advancing to higher level technique, where control is achieved by taking your partner's center...kuzushi, on contact, leaving your partner bemused as to how their balance is being broken - as they are not feeling any obvious compulsion (pain) to do so.

The pain caused by nikyo in particular can be easily cancelled out by someone who possesses a certain set of body skills, usually resulting in uke getting kuzushi on nage . Also there are quite a few people where nikyo causes little pain at all, either due to "nerve damage" or other anatomical differences. I know a wrestler who was completely impervious to the pain of the nikyo pin. The guy's wrists were probably the same size as my hands. Depending on pain compliance to control a guy like that? No way, not on this Earth..
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Old 02-01-2014, 05:21 PM   #131
Fred Little
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Mmmmmmmm! Popcorn!

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Old 02-01-2014, 05:41 PM   #132
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
Dependence on pain compliance is the lowest form of martial arts technique. As long as you continue to practice this way your partners will always be falling due to the need to escape pain (or the anticipation of pain), preventing you from advancing to higher level technique, where control is achieved by taking your partner's center...kuzushi, on contact, leaving your partner bemused as to how their balance is being broken - as they are not feeling any obvious compulsion (pain) to do so.

The pain caused by nikyo in particular can be easily cancelled out by someone who possesses a certain set of body skills, usually resulting in uke getting kuzushi on nage . Also there are quite a few people where nikyo causes little pain at all, either due to "nerve damage" or other anatomical differences. I know a wrestler who was completely impervious to the pain of the nikyo pin. The guy's wrists were probably the same size as my hands. Depending on pain compliance to control a guy like that? No way, not on this Earth..
Personally, I felt that Shioda's comment that Ueshiba's nikyo...didn't hurt (I mentioned this further up the thread) is much more interesting than the pain stuff - which you can get at your local strip mall Tae Kwon Do place.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-02-2014, 12:37 PM   #133
Janet Rosen
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Karl Arant wrote: View Post
As for "many of us becom(ing) quite immune to the aspect of it", well that's just about the least scientific, most subjective statement you can make. After all, who is "us"? You and your buddies who have some how managed to develop super powers and inhuman pain tolerance, which eludes the rest of us? If you really can't feel pain from a properly applied nikkyo, you haven't developed a new skill, you've developed nerve damage. Besides, I betcha nickle I and several other members here can make it work.
Oh I'm SO SO SORRY that I didn't quantify and peer review my USELESS anecdatal evidence that I and many people no longer feel the electric jolt we used to. And I guess the term "lock" as in locking up the person's structure isn't what you mean by lock - I didn't realize "lock" meant pain compliance and I guess all the people on whom yonkyo doesn't work unless you actually lock up their structures, they just never felt a "real" lock either.
Fred, pass the popcorn.

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:31 PM   #134
Fred Little
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Coming right up, Janet! Next batch is seasoned with ghee and truffle salt!

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Old 02-02-2014, 04:29 PM   #135
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

There is certainly a lot of spiritual waffle on nikyo here. If in doubt - keep it simple. Of course nikyo hurts. Martial arts are about destroying people. Get used to it. The pain in nikyo is about as bad as pain gets for most people and that's why we like it. Admit it. For me, a good nikyo is one that hurts like hell when on, yet afterwards, little to no pain lingers = no damage. That is good nikyo. And to have no lingering pain you have to find a way to do it with minimum force - that is the real skill.

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Old 02-02-2014, 06:53 PM   #136
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
There is certainly a lot of spiritual waffle on nikyo here. If in doubt - keep it simple. Of course nikyo hurts. Martial arts are about destroying people. Get used to it. The pain in nikyo is about as bad as pain gets for most people and that's why we like it. Admit it. For me, a good nikyo is one that hurts like hell when on, yet afterwards, little to no pain lingers = no damage. That is good nikyo. And to have no lingering pain you have to find a way to do it with minimum force - that is the real skill.
Martial arts are not for destroying people for me...I train for self-defense, personal development and fun. So speak for yourself.

Nikyo hurts some people and doesn't hurt others. I do like the pain of it and the fact that it doesn't cause harm but compliance.

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Old 02-02-2014, 07:16 PM   #137
Janet Rosen
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
There is certainly a lot of spiritual waffle on nikyo here. If in doubt - keep it simple. Of course nikyo hurts. Martial arts are about destroying people. Get used to it. The pain in nikyo is about as bad as pain gets for most people and that's why we like it. Admit it. For me, a good nikyo is one that hurts like hell when on, yet afterwards, little to no pain lingers = no damage. That is good nikyo. And to have no lingering pain you have to find a way to do it with minimum force - that is the real skill.
Sure it can hurt for a moment. Hell, it was learning to relax into nikkyo and accept the pain that taught me to deal effectively with pain IRL way better than before. But if you actually relax....it stops hurting.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:44 AM   #138
Keith Larman
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Coming right up, Janet! Next batch is seasoned with ghee and truffle salt!
Ooohhh, gonna have to try that.

WRT nikyo... Um... Pain. Control. Structure. Connection. Philosophy as to best approach to controlling a confrontation. And so forth. Lots to talk about. Lots to talk past each other about as well. So.... Carry on.

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Old 02-03-2014, 10:14 AM   #139
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Pizza has tomato sauce. If it doesn't, it's not pizza and you aren't doing it right.
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Old 02-03-2014, 11:28 AM   #140
Chris Li
 
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Pizza has tomato sauce. If it doesn't, it's not pizza and you aren't doing it right.
I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but pizza bianca (white pizza) has no tomato sauce and tastes just fine to me.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-03-2014, 11:36 AM   #141
Michael Douglas
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

This thread is suddenly good again so I'll subscribe by answering the long-dead original poster (if not dead, apologies )
Quote:
Christian Mikkelson wrote: View Post
We are told that nikajo should not be painful in the wrist. This is a difficult effect to produce, but as uke, I have felt times when the only thing I noticed was my hip and knee collapsing--no pain response.

In the past I have felt budoka from different martial arts trying to apply this technique--nikyo, I believe, in Aikikai. I always thought it was supposed to hurt at the wrist, and the problems people always had were in avoiding collapsing the arm.

Does Aikikai try to produce pain at the wrist?
I have no idea what Aikikai tries. It is an governing organisation, no?.

for me Nickyo hurts, I apply it to hurt & control at the same time, and long training and/or genetics can significanly reduce the hurt from all variations of Nickyo.
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Old 02-03-2014, 11:55 AM   #142
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but pizza bianca (white pizza) has no tomato sauce and tastes just fine to me.
You're wrong. If it doesn't have tomato sauce, you're DOING IT WRONG. It may taste great to you, but there's no real pizza application there. It isn't valid pizza. You can delude yourself all you want, but if it doesn't involve tomato sauce, it is not pizza.
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Old 02-03-2014, 12:07 PM   #143
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You're wrong. If it doesn't have tomato sauce, you're DOING IT WRONG. It may taste great to you, but there's no real pizza application there. It isn't valid pizza. You can delude yourself all you want, but if it doesn't involve tomato sauce, it is not pizza.
Well, if the master chef who invented pizza always put tomato sauce on his, and was constantly telling his chefs to do the same thing.. ("That's not my pizza!!")...and if I am making a pizza and want it to be as authentic to the original as possible, then I'm going to put the sauce on it
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Old 02-03-2014, 12:12 PM   #144
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You're wrong. If it doesn't have tomato sauce, you're DOING IT WRONG. It may taste great to you, but there's no real pizza application there. It isn't valid pizza. You can delude yourself all you want, but if it doesn't involve tomato sauce, it is not pizza.
The Italians seem to think differently...

(I'm still not sure what we're talking about)

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-03-2014, 12:28 PM   #145
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
The Italians seem to think differently...

(I'm still not sure what we're talking about)

Best,

Chris
Heh. You know, after re-reading that exchange beginning with Mary's non-sequitor about pizza, it all seems really weird to me this attempt to hijack a thread about nikyo (which is outside of the Internals forum) into an IP/aiki debate, by someone who doesn't train IP/aiki. Gee..for all everyone moaned and complained back when nearly *every* thread turned into an IP/aiki discussion, you seem to want to *talk* about it anyway.
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:15 PM   #146
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
(I'm still not sure what we're talking about)
It should be <ahem> painfully obvious what Mary is talking about.

(please pass the popcorn)

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:19 PM   #147
Keith Larman
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Damnit, now I want pizza too. You guys are screwing up my diet! Sheesh.

Here's my answer. "It depends on whether you're Aikido right or wrong." End of discussion.

There, unwrap that and you should have a solution all the problems of Aikido.

You're welcome.

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Old 02-03-2014, 01:24 PM   #148
tarik
 
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Damnit, now I want pizza too. You guys are screwing up my diet! Sheesh.
Nothing wrong with pizza on my diet.. I just have to count the calories if I want to keep losing. Of course, without red sauce, my pizza can stretch a little father..

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Here's my answer. "It depends on whether you're Aikido right or wrong." End of discussion.

There, unwrap that and you should have a solution all the problems of Aikido.

You're welcome.
I don't do aikido any more.. I study aikibudo.

Tarik Ghbeish
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MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:38 PM   #149
Keith Larman
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I don't do aikido any more.. I study aikibudo.
Well, my answer works regardless of what you're studying. Feel free to change out the domain any way you'd like. So with that difficult problem resolved, all that's left is getting back to actually training.

And finding a good slice somewhere for lunch... Hmmm...

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Old 02-03-2014, 02:59 PM   #150
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Sure it can hurt for a moment. Hell, it was learning to relax into nikkyo and accept the pain that taught me to deal effectively with pain IRL way better than before. But if you actually relax....it stops hurting.
It is not until you relax into and learn to follow the pain that you can find a way out of it. Ditto other waza.

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