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Old 11-08-2016, 02:45 AM   #1
MrIggy
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Aikido sparing

Here are some videos of certain Aikidoka doing sparring with people from other martial arts:

"Aikido vs Wrestling": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trgFaPFDMaI

"Aikido vs Shotokan Karate": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmZ-h_9EQ5Y

"Aikido vs BJJ": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS2o4sNqcA4

The guy on the 2nd and 3rd video is the same person. Any comments on the videos? Also the BJJ guy in the 3rd video is Roy Dean a black belt in Judo, Aikido and BJJ.
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Old 11-08-2016, 08:28 AM   #2
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

First clip: one of the most boring clips ever.
Second clip: Sparring w/glasses. Well, anything is going to work when nobody is going to make you eat leather.
Third clip: Not bad for being completely outclassed both standing and in the ground.
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Old 11-08-2016, 10:16 AM   #3
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
First clip: one of the most boring clips ever.
Second clip: Sparring w/glasses. Well, anything is going to work when nobody is going to make you eat leather.
Third clip: Not bad for being completely outclassed both standing and in the ground.
I have noticed that he is always wearing his glasses in his clips on youtube. I think that tells allot about the intensity in his training. The worst part is that it says that he is a 4. Dan black belt. Outclassed or not he moves like a 4 kyu not a black belt.
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Old 11-08-2016, 10:58 AM   #4
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Anyway, at least he tries and steps out of his confort zone. Respect is deserved.
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Old 11-08-2016, 12:37 PM   #5
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

I can't argue with that.
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Old 11-08-2016, 01:03 PM   #6
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido sparing

Rolling with Roy Dean is a very difficult proposition. He is incredibly skilled at BJJ and in this clip he wasn't trying to win, but was simply rolling with someone. When he got into a position of submission, he would let go and continue the rolling. THAT is classy on the part of a BJJ teacher.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 11-08-2016, 01:32 PM   #7
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

I wouldn't say he wasn't trying to win but he certainly wasn't going all out. Maybe he rolled more in the beginning, but latter own every time he secured a position he ended it in a submission. He's a 3rd Dan and well he acted like a 3rd Dan, not only with his skill but with the way he applied it, a true master.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:40 AM   #8
RonRagusa
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Re: Aikido sparing

The problem with these "comparison" videos is that the Aikido people never end up doing Aikido. They always try to do what the other guy is doing, especially when sparring with wrestlers and BJJ practitioners. For instance, as soon as Roy Dean went to the ground the Aikido guy should have backed off.

The karate folks were being very nice to him by not going to his face. Had they been he would not have been able to get inside so easily. He did manage some nice judo-like take downs, but again, his opponents were executing a limited skill set.

The videos did illustrate one point though; Aikido isn't designed for sport fighting.

Ron

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Old 11-09-2016, 08:27 AM   #9
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
The problem with these "comparison" videos is that the Aikido people never end up doing Aikido. They always try to do what the other guy is doing, especially when sparring with wrestlers and BJJ practitioners.

For instance, as soon as Roy Dean went to the ground the Aikido guy should have backed off.
Excellent observation. Also i would notice that many of them have problems executing some of the more basic techniques.

Quote:
The karate folks were being very nice to him by not going to his face. Had they been he would not have been able to get inside so easily. He did manage some nice judo-like take downs, but again, his opponents were executing a limited skill set.
Well, they were using sport techniques so that's mostly why they didn't go for the head. I have seen only one Judo like takedown, the outer reap at 1:41.

Quote:
The videos did illustrate one point though; Aikido isn't designed for sport fighting.
Some of the techniques and principles can be applied in sport situations but in general i agree that Aikido is not a sport. Although i don't think Shodokan practitioners would agree.

Last edited by MrIggy : 11-09-2016 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 11-09-2016, 08:46 AM   #10
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Aikido is like a swimming style designed to work in the high sea, during a storm, surrounded by sharks whose practitioners drown in warm, 5 ft deep, swimming pools while playing with rubber ducks..
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Old 11-10-2016, 01:07 AM   #11
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Aikido is like a swimming style designed to work in the high sea, during a storm, surrounded by sharks whose practitioners drown in warm, 5 ft deep, swimming pools while playing with rubber ducks..
Hm, interesting comparison.
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Old 11-11-2016, 06:03 AM   #12
MRoh
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
The problem with these "comparison" videos is that the Aikido people never end up doing Aikido. They always try to do what the other guy is doing
This is because Aikido people don't know how to fight in their own system. Many people are convinced that Aikido is always victorious, but in a normal fight they don't know what to do.

Aikido usually does not provide a set of fighting strategies or techniques, that could be used effektively in a friendly competition.
In Judo, every technique is a randori technique, and it can be used in a competition. In Aikido, people can perfectly do exercise techniques, but have only a vague idea how this technique could work in a fight, or they know some kind of a very dangerous "streetfighting version". Usually they say it is to dangerous to practice this "deadly" techniques. Between these two poles there is nothing. This gap is mostly filled with the behavour of the person they try to spar with.
In a fight nobody offers kinetic energy or extends his arms, and usually there is no strategy how to come into a position allowing to execute an Aikido technique.
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Old 11-11-2016, 11:32 AM   #13
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Aikido usually does not provide a set of fighting strategies or techniques, that could be used effektively in a friendly competition.
This is true. Although Kenji Tomiki tried to convert Aikido techniques into competition techniques, he ended up discarding many techniques from his syllabus.

Quote:
In Judo, every technique is a randori technique, and it can be used in a competition.
Yes but in later years certain throws and techniques have been discarded from official competition because of danger of serious injury.

Quote:
In Aikido, people can perfectly do exercise techniques, but have only a vague idea how this technique could work in a fight, or they know some kind of a very dangerous "streetfighting version".
Excellent point. Although i have never head of "dangerous street fighting versions" i have heard and been told that in most dojos what you actually learn in the beginning are "school type" or "basic" techniques, that are done in the dojo, and after a certain period do you get to do the actual, outside dojo, technique type.

Quote:
Usually they say it is to dangerous to practice this "deadly" techniques. Between these two poles there is nothing.This gap is mostly filled with the behavour of the person they try to spar with.
Exactly, because they don't have actual experience in applying their technique outside of the model they have learned them in.

Quote:
In a fight nobody offers kinetic energy or extends his arms, and usually
It depends on the situation and if your opponent is trained or not. For example a friend of mine trained in Judo for a brief time (one year) and after that on a basketball court another guy tried to jump (on) him, something in between those. Perhaps he wanted to use the moment(um) of surprise but as it may be he actually gave my friend quite the amount of energy needed to throw him over. The guy didn't just fall over him he flew over him and he didn't land straight down, he actually grazed his ass twice as he wen't the distance like a stone skipping. You actually don't even need that much energy from someone to throw him.

Quote:
there is no strategy how to come into a position allowing to execute an Aikido technique.
Do you mean in general or in a sport setting?
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:15 PM   #14
dps
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Re: Aikido sparing

No atemi, no Aikido.

dps

http://aikieast.blogspot.com/2009/08...in-aikido.html

Last edited by dps : 11-11-2016 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:32 PM   #15
dps
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Re: Aikido sparing

An older thread about atemi.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5017

dps
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Old 11-11-2016, 01:58 PM   #16
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
This is because Aikido people don't know how to fight in their own system.
Of course. They are not being taught to do that.
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Old 11-11-2016, 02:40 PM   #17
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Of course. They are not being taught to do that.
Then, what are we being taught to do?
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Old 11-11-2016, 03:42 PM   #18
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Then, what are we being taught to do?
Aikido.

A form of budo which has become, in many instances -in the words of one guy who used to post here- a kind of aerobic social activity surrounded by an empty new age shell.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:11 PM   #19
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
This is true. Although Kenji Tomiki tried to convert Aikido techniques into competition techniques, he ended up discarding many techniques from his syllabus.
Please name a technique that was discarded from the syllabus.

Quote:
Yes but in later years certain throws and techniques have been discarded from official competition because of danger of serious injury.
A bit more careful and more correct - when applied to Shodokan.

I think what needs to be understood that in both Judo and Shodokan randori what is being trained is a mindset and ability to execute techniques in a dynamic environment. There is the danger that you restrict yourselves to the ''allowed'' techniques or worse yet your toku waza but the underlying assumption is that that won't happen.

Budo should be taught, not as a collection of techniques, but of an attitude.

To the point of the demos - the big problem with most of them is that the aikido guy fights on the others terms. Never a good idea.

Last edited by PeterR : 11-11-2016 at 05:16 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:35 PM   #20
MRoh
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Do you mean in general or in a sport setting?
As I wrote before, normally people don't extend their arms in fighting, they don't give up control, when you try to grab them they resist, and don't relax arms for to do good ukemi.
This is generally, not only in a sports setting.
To get into a good position for executing Aikidō techniques, you need to control ukes power and stability to weaken his ability to resist. Otherwise any effort to manipulate arms or joints immediately will be prevented, dragging and pulling begins, and the stronger person or the one that is skilled in grappling arts wins.
This can't be done by waiting for the opponents attack, trying than to use his force ore something like that, because it will not happen like in an Aikido training setting.

Quote:
No atemi, no Aikido.
Of course atemi are important, but in a fight the other one defends and also uses striking techniques.
So you need also a strategy and experience in fighting with atemi to be succesfull.
Such a strategy normally is not part of Aikido training.
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Old 11-11-2016, 09:36 PM   #21
rugwithlegs
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Re: Aikido sparing

The videos really only get me thinking about how I teach. The aikido people were not using aikido, but neither were the shotokan people. Hard to teach atemi when the student thinks that should look like a Tae Bo video, or that controlling techniques only look like MMA.

@Peter: I don't know what Tomiki might have discarded; there is a larger system I think than many other schools in the Koryu no Kata. But I understood that Tomiki, like Kano, looked for safe-for-competition techniques for the core of the basic system?
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Old 11-12-2016, 12:47 AM   #22
dps
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
As I wrote before, normally people don't extend their arms in fighting, they don't give up control, when you try to grab them they resist, and don't relax arms for to do good ukemi.
Do atemi, kuzushi.
I don't care if my attacker does good ukemi.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
To get into a good position for executing Aikidō techniques, you need to control ukes power and stability to weaken his ability to resist.
Yup, atemi, kuzushi.

dps
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Old 11-12-2016, 03:25 AM   #23
MRoh
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Do atemi, kuzushi.
Yes, very simple. try kuzushi on a skilled judoka or bjj guy.
Try atemi on a boxer.
Yo have to practice seperately how to get them, because the behaviour is different from Aikidō people. There is no great artistry in doing atemi on an aikidoka in normal training.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I don't care if my attacker does good ukemi
That is not the point.
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Old 11-12-2016, 03:47 AM   #24
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
@Peter: I don't know what Tomiki might have discarded; there is a larger system I think than many other schools in the Koryu no Kata. But I understood that Tomiki, like Kano, looked for safe-for-competition techniques for the core of the basic system?
My hackles rose with the statement that techniques were discarded from the syllabus. Its an old canard that creeps up every now and then.

But yes there are the basic 17 techniques (and all their variations) that are allowed in competition. The genius of those 17 is that they really are a distillation of a huge range of possibilities with very little falling outside of it. If you work through those, the Kyu/Dan grade syllabus, all the Koryu no Kata, and some choice techniques outside of that - well good luck in finding any watering down.

Actually the only common technique that really comes to mind as excluded from competition in kotemawashi (nikkyo) and even that is only the very tight version. It is of course taught in the kyu grade syllabus.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-12-2016, 06:47 AM   #25
rugwithlegs
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
My hackles rose with the statement that techniques were discarded from the syllabus. Its an old canard that creeps up every now and then.

But yes there are the basic 17 techniques (and all their variations) that are allowed in competition. The genius of those 17 is that they really are a distillation of a huge range of possibilities with very little falling outside of it. If you work through those, the Kyu/Dan grade syllabus, all the Koryu no Kata, and some choice techniques outside of that - well good luck in finding any watering down.

Actually the only common technique that really comes to mind as excluded from competition in kotemawashi (nikkyo) and even that is only the very tight version. It is of course taught in the kyu grade syllabus.
I hadn't known why kote Mawashi wasn't part of the 17, thanks for that. I completely agree that the 17 are very well thought out. Looking at the possible variations of the first five, no question that aikido is 99% atemi. As laid out, I think it is a very good primer on atemi, and those first five are where I have anyone go for henka waza practice if they are new to it. The kid trying to do kotegaeshi on the wrestler in the first video, I would tell him to go practice those five.

Coming from Aikikai, I look at the 25 taigi and the koryu no kata, and I see a clear definition of dan rank materials that had survived the test of time. I have never heard of anything in Aikikai, at least in the US, like this done to preserve knowledge.

In terms of being watered down...not a shodokan comment, but really for all training - of course it's all watered down. Every system is training, not the real thing. Sensei would show how a core technique could be used for a pin, a throw, koshiwaza, an atemi platform, kansetsu, and dead-before-they-hit-the-ground stuff. Sometimes he would show Real Technique (you could hear the capital letters in his speech), and my sphincters still clench just remembering what he would demonstrate. A few ushiro ate variations were particularly horrifying to watch.

US Marines don't practice by putting bullets in each other either.
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