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Old 05-01-2013, 01:45 PM   #76
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
What he did, at least in the case of the dancer. Anyway, never mind the old man, he's dead anyway...
It is pretty well documented that O Sensei threw dan ranks around like they were hot potatoes. I think this had a lot more to do with his feelings about rank than with his definition of aikido.

Quote:
Of course the technical curriculum can be quite different in many cases - of Tohei, Shioda, Mochizuki, Tomiki, Nishio, Yamaguchi, Saito, Watanabe, Abe, et al - who is and isn't doing Aikido?

Some of would definitely say (or have said) that what you're doing isn't Aikido - of course, you might say the same thing...

Best,

Chris
All the technical curricula you mentioned above have irimi, tenkan, ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, koshinage, etc. I have trained with students of the Saotome, Nishio, Yamada, Chiba, Tohei, Homma, Tomiki, and Hombu curricula, and they all used nearly identical terminology for essentially the same set of techniques. We might not all agree on what is good aikido, but virtually all of us do seem to agree, according to a technique-based definition, on what is aikido and what is not.

So if that definition is insufficient, (1) what's wrong with it, and (2) what is your alternative definition?

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-01-2013 at 01:48 PM.

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Old 05-01-2013, 02:02 PM   #77
Chris Li
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
It is pretty well documented that O Sensei threw dan ranks around like they were hot potatoes. I think this had a lot more to do with his feelings about rank than with his definition of aikido.
Fair enough, but not conclusive - and it ignores most of what he actually said when defining things.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
All the technical curricula you mentioned above have irimi, tenkan, ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, koshinage, etc. I have trained with students of the Saotome, Nishio, Yamada, Chiba, Tohei, Homma, Tomiki, and Hombu curricula, and they all used nearly identical terminology for essentially the same set of techniques. We might not all agree on what is good aikido, but virtually all of us do seem to agree, according to a technique-based definition, on what is aikido and what is not.

So if that definition is insufficient, (1) what's wrong with it, and (2) what is your alternative definition?
As I said, some of them would state categorically that what you are doing isn't Aikido. Moriteru Ueshiba has stated categorically that what some of them are doing isn't Aikido. So it's hardly that simple, despite similar sounding names.

Ueshiba himself stated that Aikido was a principle based art - so did Takeda. It follows that anyone following those principles (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether or not any particular MMA guy is doing so) can be said to be doing Aikido.

"Aiki-do" = "The Way of Aiki" = anybody practicing the principle of Aiki could be said to be doing "Aikido". "Aikido" itself, as a term, isn't exclusive to Ueshiba's art anyway, so it can get a little tricky.

Of course, this could open up a can of worms too...

I wrote some of this up last year in this blog post.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-01-2013, 02:17 PM   #78
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Mathew, I think you've asked a very tricky question! Besides the wide inter-dojo variability within aikido styles, all the techniques you've mentioned (ex. ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaishi, koshinage, etc.) are also seen in Daito-ryu. When you have an 82% overlap in terms of physical techniques with another martial art, it seems like it would be difficult to "define" aikido according to physical overlap. I am definitely NOT saying that you are wrong, but I can see how others might see it differently. In my personal opinion, I think it comes down to a focus on developing "aiki" whatever the heck that is The specific techniques and solo exercises are just tools to facilitate the expression of aiki. Thus, maybe it is possible to see high level karateka, judo and sumo players, and maybe even a dancer(?) expressing masterful levels of aiki.

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Old 05-01-2013, 02:44 PM   #79
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Fair enough, but not conclusive - and it ignores most of what he actually said when defining things.
For the purposes of the present conversation, I am ignoring anything that does not lead to a practical, functional definition of the word aikido. O Sensei was making up aikido as he went; he had the luxury of defining it as he saw fit. I have no such luxury; I need a word with a specific definition I can use.

Quote:
As I said, some of them would state categorically that what you are doing isn't Aikido. Moriteru Ueshiba has stated categorically that what some of them are doing isn't Aikido. So it's hardly that simple, despite similar sounding names.
In my experience it has been exactly that simple. It is the practical way all martial arts are defined. The fact that the old masters squabbled over whose aikido was the real aikido doesn't change the use of the word in practice.

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Ueshiba himself stated that Aikido was a principle based art - so did Takeda. It follows that anyone following those principles (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether or not any particular MMA guy is doing so) can be said to be doing Aikido.
No, it does not follow. The fact that aikido is founded on certain principles does not necessarily mean that all things utilizing those principles are aikido.

Quote:
"Aiki-do" = "The Way of Aiki" = anybody practicing the principle of Aiki could be said to be doing "Aikido".
According to this logic, anyone who is doing anything with empty hands (clapping, swimming, sign language) can be said to be doing karate. And everything done with a sword is kendo. And everything done gently is judo.

If anything aiki is aikido, (a) there is no reason to have the word aikido at all, since we already have the word aiki, and (b) we need a new name for the martial art we do in the dojo so that we can distinguish it from an aiki way of making pancakes.
Quote:
"Aikido" itself, as a term, isn't exclusive to Ueshiba's art anyway, so it can get a little tricky.
Who used the term before O Sensei?

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-01-2013 at 02:55 PM.

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Old 05-01-2013, 02:50 PM   #80
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Mathew, I think you've asked a very tricky question! Besides the wide inter-dojo variability within aikido styles, all the techniques you've mentioned (ex. ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaishi, koshinage, etc.) are also seen in Daito-ryu. When you have an 82% overlap in terms of physical techniques with another martial art, it seems like it would be difficult to "define" aikido according to physical overlap. I am definitely NOT saying that you are wrong, but I can see how others might see it differently. In my personal opinion, I think it comes down to a focus on developing "aiki" whatever the heck that is The specific techniques and solo exercises are just tools to facilitate the expression of aiki. Thus, maybe it is possible to see high level karateka, judo and sumo players, and maybe even a dancer(?) expressing masterful levels of aiki.
Aiki, yes. Aikido, no. Chris' definition would have us giving the name aikido to that karateka's karate, that judoka's judo, that wrestler's sumo, and that dancer's dance. And then what do you call what we do?

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-01-2013 at 03:01 PM.

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Old 05-01-2013, 03:01 PM   #81
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Aiki, yes. Aikido, no. Chris' definition would have us giving the name aikido to that karateka's karate, that judoka's judo, that wrestler's sumo, and that dancer's dance.
that would suggest that ai-ki-do is more the doing of the techniques and the performing of the various things we associate with the art than it is the strength of the principles behind them. Or is it not? It is the other way around or somewhere in between?
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:43 PM   #82
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
For the purposes of the present conversation, I am ignoring anything that does not lead to a practical, functional definition of the word aikido. O Sensei was making up aikido as he went; he had the luxury of defining it as he saw fit. I have no such luxury; I need a word with a specific definition I can use.
O Sensei didn't make a lot of it up - most he got from Daito-ryu. As Andy said, if you go by technique, then strictly speaking, we should be calling this Daito-ryu.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
In my experience it has been exactly that simple. It is the practical way all martial arts are defined. The fact that the old masters squabbled over whose aikido was the real aikido doesn't change the use of the word in practice.
It does because they define (for many people) what the word is. Moriteru Ueshiba, for example has some little bit of influence over how hundreds of thousands of folks define Aikido. And he's not all that old.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
No, it does not follow. The fact that aikido is founded on certain principles does not necessarily mean that all things utilizing those principles are aikido.
Why not? If certain princlples govern, for example, a cookie, then anything made that way will be a cookie. I think what you're talking about goes more to branding, and there might be more of an argument there.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
According to this logic, anyone who is doing anything with empty hands (clapping, swimming, sign language) can be said to be doing karate. And everything done with a sword is kendo. And everything done gently is judo.
Well, I think that's a little extreme gently=Judo is not quite the same as Aiki=Aikido.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
If anything aiki is aikido, (a) there is no reason to have the word aikido at all, since we already have the word aiki, and (b) we need a new name for the martial art we do in the dojo so that we can distinguish it from an aiki way of making pancakes.
Adding "do" doesn't really make it that different, except for branding purposes. Westerners tend to get hung up on the "do" ending, but it really doesn't mean that much in Japanese.

Actually, the exact same kanji for "Aikido" can be used for esoteric Taoist sexual practices. It's not unique.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Who used the term before O Sensei?
He didn't invent it, he wasn't the first to use it, it was a generic category term for a number of arts that couldn't fit under other categories invented by a committee of the Dai Nippon Butokukai. There are at least three other groups from pre-war that I am aware of that also used the name and even continue to use the name.

Anyway, if you're defining Aikido by technique, shouldn't any MMA guy who uses an Aikido technique be doing Aikido according to that standard? I'm not sure where you're going here...

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-01-2013, 07:47 PM   #83
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
O Sensei didn't make a lot of it up - most he got from Daito-ryu. As Andy said, if you go by technique, then strictly speaking, we should be calling this Daito-ryu.
Even if we take what Andy said as literally as possible, there's still an 18% difference. That's almost one fifth. That's certainly enough to furnish definitions for two different words.

Quote:
It does because they define (for many people) what the word is. Moriteru Ueshiba, for example has some little bit of influence over how hundreds of thousands of folks define Aikido. And he's not all that old.
Let me draw an analogy to another martial art. I used to train taekwondo. There are two major taekwondo camps in the world: the ITF and the Kukkiwon/WTF. The ITF insist that they are the only real taekwondo, and so do the Kukkiwon/WTF. But according to any conversationally functional definition of the word, they're both taekwondo. You can pick one side or the other as "good" taekwondo or "proper" taekwondo, but there's no way to define taekwondo in any way that one is and the other is not, unless your definition of taekwondo is, "Whatever this very influential guy says taekwondo is," which, of course, is not a definition with any practical use.

It's the same with our art. Doshu or anyone else can say that whatever organization isn't doing aikido, but any useful, functional definition of the word aikido is fulfilled by all the curricula we named above.

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Why not? If certain princlples govern, for example, a cookie, then anything made that way will be a cookie. I think what you're talking about goes more to branding, and there might be more of an argument there.
I'm not talking about branding; I'm talking about simple logic. If you start with the assumption that A is based on B, it does not necessarily follow that all things which include B are A.

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Well, I think that's a little extreme gently=Judo is not quite the same as Aiki=Aikido.
It is no more extreme than the linguistic argument you just made. If all things aiki are aikido, then all things empty handed are karatedo, all things gentle/yielding are judo, and all things involving swords are kendo. My point is that the name aikido, like the names of all Japanese martial arts, means something more specific than the sum of its etymological parts.

Quote:
Adding "do" doesn't really make it that different, except for branding purposes. Westerners tend to get hung up on the "do" ending, but it really doesn't mean that much in Japanese.
It makes a very big difference in this case. Aiki is a principle of movement whereas aikido is the name O Sensei chose for his martial art. As I said above, the name of a Japanese martial art means something much more specific than the sum of its etymological parts.

Quote:
Actually, the exact same kanji for "Aikido" can be used for esoteric Taoist sexual practices. It's not unique.
The exact same kanji are also used for the name of the Korean martial art hapkido. I'm not just talking about kanji, though. I'm talking about a spoken word.

Quote:
He didn't invent it, he wasn't the first to use it, it was a generic category term for a number of arts that couldn't fit under other categories invented by a committee of the Dai Nippon Butokukai. There are at least three other groups from pre-war that I am aware of that also used the name and even continue to use the name.
Interesting. I'll have to look this up.

Quote:
Anyway, if you're defining Aikido by technique, shouldn't any MMA guy who uses an Aikido technique be doing Aikido according to that standard? I'm not sure where you're going here...
No, because aikido is more than just one technique. It is a whole set of principles and techniques, and any functional definition of the word aikido must encompass enough of those principles and techniques that it can't simply be used as a name for any martial art. Let's use your cookie analogy: does everything with a single chocolate chip in it become a chocolate chip cookie?

A word's power to convey an idea is not in what it means, but in what it does not mean. The more things a word can mean, the less use it has. Your definition of aikido makes the word completely linguistically useless, because it can mean anything.

According to your definition of aikido, the sentence "I did aikido this morning," could mean that you trained in a dojo, it could mean you boxed in a ring, it could mean you danced, it could mean you mowed your lawn, it could mean you made waffles, anything. And so your sentence communicates nothing. The sentence means exactly as much as the sentence, "I hargashmalled this morning." You have effectively stripped the word aikido of any meaning at all.

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Old 05-01-2013, 07:59 PM   #84
Chris Li
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
It's the same with our art. Doshu or anyone else can say that whatever organization isn't doing aikido, but any useful, functional definition of the word aikido is fulfilled by all the curricula we named above.
Defined by who?

You're saying that Moriteru's definition doesn't matter (I don't necessarily disagree) but that somehow there is a definition from....?

You're saying that Aikido ought to be defined technically, is that correct? I'm saying that Ueshiba never intended to define it that narrowly. If he made it (as you said at one point), ought not what he said be important in evaluating the criteria?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
According to your definition of aikido, the sentence "I did aikido this morning," could mean that you trained in a dojo, it could mean you boxed in a ring, it could mean you danced, it could mean you mowed your lawn, it could mean you made waffles, anything. And so your sentence communicates nothing. The sentence means exactly as much as the sentence, "I hargashmalled this morning." You have effectively stripped the word aikido of any meaning at all.
I don't have time to answer the whole thing (and I'm certainly not going to start arguing percentages), but I will say that the above is only true if your definition of "Aiki" covers all those things, mine doesn't.

But my hunch is that we'd define Aiki differently anyway...

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-01-2013, 08:19 PM   #85
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

i have always thought that aikido is the way of cross-dressing men practicing esoteric Taoist sexual practice. i meant, there is no other martial arts that talked so much about love, connection, entering, and harmonizing. how would you feel rolling around with those MMA guys wearing next to nothing, pulling guards and talking about love and entering?

just curious, what do folks defined as MMA? would practicing kungfu and underwater basket weaving considered as MMA? or perhaps BJJ and pole dancing? or maybe aikido and hip-hops?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:22 PM   #86
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Defined by who?

You're saying that Moriteru's definition doesn't matter (I don't necessarily disagree) but that somehow there is a definition from....?

You're saying that Aikido ought to be defined technically, is that correct? I'm saying that Ueshiba never intended to define it that narrowly. If he made it (as you said at one point), ought not what he said be important in evaluating the criteria?
Certainly, but if our criteria don't lead us to a word with a clear definition, then they fail, no matter whose criteria they are, even O Sensei's. I don't think O Sensei was particularly interested in clearly defining his art, and as I said above, he had the luxury of not having to. As long as O Sensei lived, the word aikido needed only to mean "Morihei Ueshiba's martial art".

O Sensei's definitions of the art simply do not suffice on a linguistic level in the absence of O Sensei himself. They do not coalesce into a single definition of a single word that can be used practically.

Quote:
I don't have time to answer the whole thing (and I'm certainly not going to start arguing percentages), but I will say that the above is only true if your definition of "Aiki" covers all those things, mine doesn't.

But my hunch is that we'd define Aiki differently anyway...

Best,

Chris
Your opening post makes it clear that your definition of aiki is at least broad enough to cover what MMA fighters do, and discussion with you has lead me to believe that you also think it can cover dancing. Rather than arguing the definition of aiki (something that would take forever and likely go nowhere), let's say the definition ends there.

In that case, your definition of aikido is anything that is done according to the principles of aiki, which you seem to be saying can include any number of martial arts (including even competitive MMA) and dancing. So the sentence, "I did aikido this morning," now means that you did one of many martial arts or danced. Still not a particularly useful sentence.

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Old 05-01-2013, 08:23 PM   #87
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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The exact same kanji are also used for the name of the Korean martial art hapkido. I'm not just talking about kanji, though. I'm talking about a spoken word.
Just a note...

The kanji are the spoken word, however they're pronounced. Different kanji, different word. Same kanji, same word.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-01-2013, 09:38 PM   #88
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Certainly, but if our criteria don't lead us to a word with a clear definition, then they fail, no matter whose criteria they are, even O Sensei's. I don't think O Sensei was particularly interested in clearly defining his art, and as I said above, he had the luxury of not having to. As long as O Sensei lived, the word aikido needed only to mean "Morihei Ueshiba's martial art".

O Sensei's definitions of the art simply do not suffice on a linguistic level in the absence of O Sensei himself. They do not coalesce into a single definition of a single word that can be used practically.
Sure they do - he was difficult to understand, that's all, especially without the proper context. Not only did he give some very clear definitions, but he repeated them ad nauseum. Read through "Take Musu Aiki" and one of the first things that hits you is the continued hammering on repeated themes.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Your opening post makes it clear that your definition of aiki is at least broad enough to cover what MMA fighters do, and discussion with you has lead me to believe that you also think it can cover dancing. Rather than arguing the definition of aiki (something that would take forever and likely go nowhere), let's say the definition ends there.

In that case, your definition of aikido is anything that is done according to the principles of aiki, which you seem to be saying can include any number of martial arts (including even competitive MMA) and dancing. So the sentence, "I did aikido this morning," now means that you did one of many martial arts or danced. Still not a particularly useful sentence.
Not at all, just because a dancer may have Aiki doesn't mean that all dancers have Aiki, or that all dancing is Aiki. Same for martial arts.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-02-2013, 06:15 AM   #89
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Co-ordination of mind and of body is what it is...you either know how to get it or you don't. It doesn't matter what you call it.

The study of aikido to me is a practice that encompasses co-ordination of mind and body with some principles. It is a life study.

I am sure there are as many definitions to both aiki and aikido as there are serious practitioners.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 05-02-2013 at 06:18 AM. Reason: period

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Old 05-02-2013, 07:25 AM   #90
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Sure they do - he was difficult to understand, that's all, especially without the proper context. Not only did he give some very clear definitions, but he repeated them ad nauseum. Read through "Take Musu Aiki" and one of the first things that hits you is the continued hammering on repeated themes.
If O Sensei gave such clear definitions of aikido, then why do you need such a broad definition as "anything aiki"?
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Not at all, just because a dancer may have Aiki doesn't mean that all dancers have Aiki, or that all dancing is Aiki. Same for martial arts.
But you maintain aiki can be present in dancing and in many martial arts, and that the definition of aikido is anything done with aiki. Therefore, according to your definition, the sentence, "I practice aikido," is a very unclear sentence--we don't really know what activity the speaker is talking about.

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Co-ordination of mind and of body is what it is...you either know how to get it or you don't. It doesn't matter what you call it.

The study of aikido to me is a practice that encompasses co-ordination of mind and body with some principles. It is a life study.
Many things incorporate the coordination of mind and body. Surely they're not all aikido.

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I am sure there are as many definitions to both aiki and aikido as there are serious practitioners.
The martial art we practice in the dojo needs a name, and in order for a name to be useful it must distinguish the object it names from other objects. We don't all have to have the same definition of aikido, but we do all need definitions that distinguish our art from other arts and other activities, otherwise our definitions are linguistically useless.

Going back to the original post, Dan says that he sees aikido "all over the place in MMA". Surely, Dan doesn't mean that he sees MMA fighters doing iriminages and nikkyos; he means that he sees certain physical principles at work in MMA. The problem with Dan's statement is that it stretches the definition of aikido to encompass anything in which can be found certain principles of physics--principles which have never been exclusive to our martial art. In so doing, Dan has created a definition of aikido which does not distinguish our art from others; it is no longer a name for just our martial art and therefore our martial art needs a new name. It is the same with Chris' definition.

As Mary says, there are many different definitions of aikido; it would be foolish for us all to try and settle on one. But that doesn't mean we can't discard some definitions which are useless. Any definition which does not distinguish our martial art from others is useless. Dan's does not, and Chris's does not, therefore they are useless.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-02-2013 at 07:31 AM.

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Old 05-02-2013, 07:34 AM   #91
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Just a note...

The kanji are the spoken word, however they're pronounced. Different kanji, different word. Same kanji, same word.

Best,

Chris
On the contrary, we are talking about three different words in three different languages that mean three very different things. The fact that they are spelled the same does not make them the same word. You might as well say that lead (verb) and lead (noun) are the same word because they look the same on the page.

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Old 05-02-2013, 08:12 AM   #92
Andy Kazama
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

I am usually not a big fan of debates that center around semantics, however, I see this as very relevant to my own personal training as I shift my focus from learning techniques to using them as a means to develop aiki. The point being that I appreciate the opportunity to discuss some of the different viewpoints here. I think most of us agree that the daito-ryu waza characteristic of aikido dojos around the world is an acceptable "practical" definition of aikido. However, my own aikido training has shifted drastically to where I am now practicing MORE AIKIdo (developing aiki) doing random things like walking, opening doors, riding elevators (when I am alone so as not to appear crazy), driving, etc… than I did my first two years in a dojo practicing waza. This is why I personally think you could be making pancakes and call it aikido training. It is about intent, not the external expression.

Mathew, I am curious whether or not you consider solo exercises to be aikido? Maybe, you consider it analogous to weight training in sports, where the body conditioning is separate from the actual sport? If so, I think we are at an impasse, which is fine with me. My opinion, is that aikido is different than a sport since is not only about doing things/techniques to opponents, but also about what you are doing inside your own body. Aiki in me before aiki between thee and me, to borrow a phrase from he who must not be named. When I've gotten my hands on people who express aiki in their bodies, it seems as though the techniques become very much secondary, mainly because I was toast on contact. Again, this is why I could easily see an MMA person developing an aiki engine and fitting it in with some vicious leg kicks. I'm talking about the kind that don't leave bruises on the point of contact, but go all the way through to the inner thigh. The kind that make your wife say, "and why is this cool?"

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Old 05-02-2013, 09:13 AM   #93
Chris Li
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
If O Sensei gave such clear definitions of aikido, then why do you need such a broad definition as "anything aiki"?

But you maintain aiki can be present in dancing and in many martial arts, and that the definition of aikido is anything done with aiki. Therefore, according to your definition, the sentence, "I practice aikido," is a very unclear sentence--we don't really know what activity the speaker is talking about.
It's only unclear if your definition of Aiki is unclear, as I said before, and that's my last comment on that, I think.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
IAny definition which does not distinguish our martial art from others is useless. Dan's does not, and Chris's does not, therefore they are useless.
I really don't think that you understand my definition, as I mentioned above.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-02-2013, 09:16 AM   #94
Chris Li
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
On the contrary, we are talking about three different words in three different languages that mean three very different things. The fact that they are spelled the same does not make them the same word. You might as well say that lead (verb) and lead (noun) are the same word because they look the same on the page.
It's quite a bit more than spelling, although the intent does vary. Anyway, without even going there it's clear historically that "Aikido" was not a word invented by Ueshiba, or even unique to him, even in Japan, which was my point.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-02-2013, 09:59 AM   #95
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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I really don't think that you understand my definition, as I mentioned above.
I only know what you have told me. You have told me that anything done with aiki can be properly called aikido. If I accept that statement as true, it logically follows (since aiki is not exclusive to our particular martial art), that many different martial arts and activities could be accurately and properly called aikido, at least some of the time. And if that is the case, then the term aikido cannot function as the name for our particular martial art.

Even if I don't understand you at all, even if I don't understand aikido at all, that's still how language works.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-02-2013 at 10:10 AM.

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Old 05-02-2013, 10:20 AM   #96
Chris Li
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I only know what you have told me. You have told me that anything done with aiki can be properly called aikido. If I accept that statement as true, it logically follows (since aiki is not exclusive to our particular martial art), that many different martial arts and activities could be accurately and properly called aikido, at least some of the time. And if that is the case, then the term aikido cannot function as the name for our particular martial art.

Even if I don't understand you at all, even if I don't understand aikido at all, that's still how language works.
As I've said from the beginning, I think that your definition is much too narrow. You're defining it along the lines of what you're doing in your particular dojo - which is fine, but other dojo still calling themselves "Aikido" are doing completely different things, right down to the technical curriculum.

I could say that I practice "dance", or even "jazz dance", and everybody understands my language quite well, but in practice that covers a huge range of activities. That's how language works.

Anyway, that's pretty much all that I have to say about that.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-02-2013, 10:39 AM   #97
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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You're defining it along the lines of what you're doing in your particular dojo - which is fine, but other dojo still calling themselves "Aikido" are doing completely different things, right down to the technical curriculum.
I am doing no such thing, and I made that abundantly clear yesterday:
Quote:
Matthew Story wrote:
All the technical curricula you mentioned above have irimi, tenkan, ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, koshinage, etc. I have trained with students of the Saotome, Nishio, Yamada, Chiba, Tohei, Homma, Shodokan, Shingu, and Hombu curricula, and they all used nearly identical terminology for essentially the same set of techniques. We might not all agree on what is good aikido, but virtually all of us do seem to agree, according to a technique-based definition, on what is aikido and what is not.
Quote:
Matthew Story wrote:
It's the same with our art. Doshu or anyone else can say that whatever organization isn't doing aikido, but any useful, functional definition of the word aikido is fulfilled by all the curricula we named above
That is clearly not a definition derived from the one particular curriculum at one particular aikido club.

If you do not wish to continue this conversation, that's fine. If you do, please refrain from further straw man tactics.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-02-2013 at 10:42 AM.

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Old 05-02-2013, 10:52 AM   #98
Chris Li
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I am doing no such thing, and I made that abundantly clear yesterday:

That is clearly not a definition derived from the one particular curriculum at one particular aikido club.

If you do not wish to continue this conversation, that's fine. If you do, please refrain from further straw man tactics.
That "virtually all of us do seem to agree" is false on the face of it - otherwise you wouldn't have had to post complaining that many people are "misusing" the word "Aikido".

I posted some very pertinent examples (Mochizuki and Ueshiba, both Moriteru and Morihei) that specifically do not agree on that basis.

That's hardly a straw man.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-02-2013, 11:04 AM   #99
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

1. In terms of linguistics, I think that "aiki" is possessive of many activities. Activities may not necessarily be possessive of aiki. Specifically, Aiki-do claims that as an activity it is inclusive of aiki. A person with aiki may express that aiki in a variety of activities. In asserting this claim, even here on Aikiweb we regularly post about the expression of verbal aikido or interpersonal aikido. It is therefore possible to say, "I did aikido this morning" and refer to a non-aikido activity possessed of aiki, such as avoiding a conflict with the ol' ball and chain. The fact the language did not explicitly say "verbal" aikido is more an illustration of poor communication.
2. If the curriculum of aikido defines "aiki" then we have two issues:
First, Probably Ueshiba Sensei would've been doing something like Daito ryu Ueshiba Ha or some such offshoot of the parent curriculum (Daito Ryu) as adopted by a single practitioner. Second, a mixed martial artist who is practicing the technical curriculum of aikido would be practicing aikido; or, practicing Ueshiba ha Daito ryu as mentioned before.

Quote:
Going back to the original post, Dan says that he sees aikido "all over the place in MMA". Surely, Dan doesn't mean that he sees MMA fighters doing iriminages and nikkyos; he means that he sees certain physical principles at work in MMA. The problem with Dan's statement is that it stretches the definition of aikido to encompass anything in which can be found certain principles ...
Yes. From a principle-based perspective, Aikido shares with many other fighting and body conditioning systems the same core principles we define as "aiki". O Sensei was unselfish of sharing "aiki" and mentioned in several different occassions where he opined that a practictioner he observed was doing aiki. Remember, aikido was neither the only name for what O Sensei taught, nor was it the name O Sensei chose.

I understand aikido has a pressure to define itself and establish itself within the fighting systems. I also understand we are trying to do this with a relatively young curriculum, of which the majority is derived from its parent art. I also understand that a great number of our practitioners are unable to express with clarity and consistency what is aiki. I am not convinced we wish to express our art as a collusion of waza that breaks down when applied within other fighting systems. Rather, I prefer to see it as an expression of aiki, which may be included in the practice of many activities.

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Old 05-02-2013, 11:07 AM   #100
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That "virtually all of us do seem to agree" is false on the face of it - otherwise you wouldn't have had to post complaining that many people are "misusing" the word "Aikido".
On the contrary, there can be no claim of misuse without a general consensus on what is proper use. And before you claim that no such consensus exists, think about the way you answered the last time someone who heard you do aikido asked, "What's that?" I bet you talked about a Japanese martial art with throws and locks and not aiki principles.

The definition I'm advocating is the definition we all already use when pressed.

Quote:
I posted some very pertinent examples (Mochizuki and Ueshiba, both Moriteru and Morihei) that specifically do not agree on that basis.
And I have explained why their disagreement is irrelevant to the formulation of a conversationally functional definition.

Quote:
That's hardly a straw man.
You invented a position for me and then refuted it, regardless of the fact that it was not actually my position. That is the very definition of straw man. I have not, at any point in this thread, advocated a definition of aikido based on the curriculum at my particular club. For you to claim that I am doing so is, to be frank, an outright lie.

And now I think I'll leave this thread before I start being a real jerk. But I might revisit this subject on my blog.

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