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Old 09-29-2014, 09:38 AM   #1
ChrisMikk
 
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shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

Sorry, I looked in the forum archives but don't see an answer: when non-Yoshinkan aikido practitioners stop using the term "shite" and start using "nage" or "tori"?

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Old 09-29-2014, 10:17 AM   #2
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

Quote:
Christian Mikkelson wrote: View Post
Sorry, I looked in the forum archives but don't see an answer: when non-Yoshinkan aikido practitioners stop using the term "shite" and start using "nage" or "tori"?
We use the term shite. Not that much as tori, but we use it.
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Old 09-29-2014, 08:43 PM   #3
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

I got scolded for using shite - can't recall if it was here or another website. haha.

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Old 09-30-2014, 01:16 AM   #4
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

This is not particularly clear.

In the prewar books (Budo Renshu 1933, Budo 1938), the Chinese character 仕 is used. In the early postwar books published by the Aikikai, there is no term for 仕 and the term for the attacker is 相手. Later this is replaced by 受, but with the okurigana け added.

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 09-30-2014 at 01:18 AM.

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Old 09-30-2014, 02:10 AM   #5
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

Might the change be connected to the unfortunate association of "shite" with excrement among English speakers?

Katherine
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:22 AM   #6
Cliff Judge
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Might the change be connected to the unfortunate association of "shite" with excrement among English speakers?

Katherine
I imagine these guys gave up trying to work with the local children's kendo clubs a long time ago:

http://youtu.be/7YblbB6As9M
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:33 PM   #7
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Might the change be connected to the unfortunate association of "shite" with excrement among English speakers?

Katherine
I never liked the romanji for 'shite.' Phonetically, its "sh'te."

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:08 AM   #8
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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Adam Huss wrote: View Post
I never liked the romanji for 'shite.' Phonetically, its "sh'te."
Nah, Hepburn is the right way to romanize Japanese.
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:48 PM   #9
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Nah, Hepburn is the right way to romanize Japanese.
I thought I remembered reading somewhere there were two forms of romanji, but I asked a couple people and they looked at me like I was crazy. Wasn't is a British and an American person who had different romanji systems?

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Old 10-05-2014, 05:50 PM   #10
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

There are more than two...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Japanese
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Old 10-06-2014, 04:54 AM   #11
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

Is it the case that 'uke' is constant while the name of the role of the doer varies (shite/nage/tori/aite) ? If so what does that say about the art?

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Old 10-06-2014, 05:03 AM   #12
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Is it the case that 'uke' is constant while the name of the role of the doer varies (shite/nage/tori/aite) ? If so what does that say about the art?
aite is synonym to uke. At least the (Japanese) teachers I know who use this term use it that way.
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Old 10-06-2014, 05:36 AM   #13
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
aite is synonym to uke. At least the (Japanese) teachers I know who use this term use it that way.
How did that teacher call the other role?

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Old 10-06-2014, 06:29 AM   #14
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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How did that teacher call the other role?
It was shite and aite.
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Old 10-06-2014, 07:02 AM   #15
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
How did that teacher call the other role?
I cannot answer for Carsten, but it is curious that all the postwar manuals written in Japanese by those affiliated to the Aikikai do not use a term for the 'other role'. The prewar books were quite clear: the person who executed the waza was 仕 (shi-te), and the person who received the waza was 受 (u-ke).

In the postwar Japanese manuals (I am thinking of the two books published by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, the early books written by Morihiro Saito and the more recent books written by Moriteru Ueshiba), the style is usually of the form, 'If your partner grabs your wrist, do this and this and this...' You can also see this in English, with Koichi Tohei's early books like This is Aikido. In the books by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Morihiro Saito, the Japanese is usually 相手 (aite), but Moriteru Ueshiba favours 受け (uke). The only dojo I trained in where the doer of the waza was referred to as 取り (tori) was the Ryushinkan Dojo in London, when Minoru Kanetsuka was the chief instructor. His early training was in the Yoshinkan. In Japan I have rarely come across this term and when I teach, I hardly ever need to use a term for the one who executes the waza. The one occasion when the term is used is in grading tests when the candidates exchange roles. Then the term is uke-tori koutai (受け取り交代/交替).

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Old 10-29-2014, 04:21 AM   #16
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
The prewar books were quite clear: the person who executed the waza was 仕 (shi-te), and the person who received the waza was 受 (u-ke).
In the preface to the german translation of "Aikido Shugyo" the translater points out that shioda didn't use uke or aite. He used 敵 (teki), that is opponent or enemy.
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Old 10-29-2014, 06:49 AM   #17
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Smile Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Might the change be connected to the unfortunate association of "shite" with excrement among English speakers?

Katherine
Dear Katherine,
Your statement is a load of crap.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 10-29-2014, 06:52 AM   #18
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Smile Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
It was shite and aite.
Dear Carsten,
It sure is. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 10-29-2014, 06:53 AM   #19
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
How did that teacher call the other role?
Dear David,
Cannon fonder??? Cheers, Joe.
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